Religion v. The Nation

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Alright kiddies, I see that some of you are a bit slow, but don't worry, everybody's a winner! Now, Timmy, let me explain to you why the cultural dominance of religion outweighs that of the state.

Again, not what was asked.

To what extent would you say it should influence someone's life?

I think it should be the top collective identity and as such have a guiding influence on most decisions. Which it does, for most.

Like, serving the United Kingdom is the top priority of my decisions? Pfft, this is the UK, not North Korea.

[Conserative Morality]

Like, serving the United Kingdom is the top priority of my decisions?

No, like the cultural values of the UK drilled into you since birth form the guiding basis of your decisions.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Like, serving the United Kingdom is the top priority of my decisions?

No, like the cultural values of the UK drilled into you since birth form the guiding basis of your decisions.

You do know the values of democracy, individual liberty, tolerance and respect for diversity are not unique to the UK, and are shared by most other Western nations.

[Conserative Morality]

You do know the values of democracy, individual liberty, tolerance and respect for diversity are not unique to the UK, and are shared by most other Western nations.

I don't see how that contradicts my point.

[Frostnia]

I don't really get how people are misinterpreting CM's point

[Ratateague]

Eh, dismiss religion as you will.. nation's are constructs themselves. Imagined identities and borders geographically dividing people with perceived differences. Regimes change, borders shift, groups restructure. It's just an easier way to wrap our head around the organized chaos of millions in conflict and competition with each other. Oversimplifying it makes it easier to stomach the murder, neglect, and waste.

[Conserative Morality]

Eh, dismiss religion as you will.. nation's are constructs themselves. Imagined identities and borders geographically dividing people with perceived differences. Regimes change, borders shift, groups restructure. It's just an easier way to wrap our head around the organized chaos of millions in conflict and competition with each other. Oversimplifying it makes it easier to stomach the murder, neglect, and waste.

Language is a construct. Self is a construct. The concept of a construct is a construct. Saying something is a construct is meaningless in and of itself.

[Bewhua]

What happens if i'm not religious and am against the concept of a "nation", and are actively anti-patriotic? Would the right answer be "Neither"?

[Conserative Morality]

What happens if i'm not religious and am against the concept of a "nation", and are actively anti-patriotic? Would the right answer be "Neither"?

"No gods, no masters"

[Ratateague]

Language is a construct. Self is a construct. The concept of a construct is a construct. Saying something is a construct is meaningless in and of itself.

Nagarjuna would like a word with you.

[Dogmeat]

What happens if i'm not religious and am against the concept of a "nation", and are actively anti-patriotic? Would the right answer be "Neither"?

"No gods, no masters"

This. Except I'll pretty much do anything for someone in a blue jumpsuit.

[Bewhua]

What happens if i'm not religious and am against the concept of a "nation", and are actively anti-patriotic? Would the right answer be "Neither"?

"No gods, no masters"

Fair enough. One thing though, you mentioned in a debate earlier how you should stand with what has been "drilled" into your mind, right? Well, doesn't that sound very bad? What happened to independent thought?

[Conserative Morality]

Fair enough. One thing though, you mentioned in a debate earlier how you should stand with what has been "drilled" into your mind, right? Well, doesn't that sound very bad? What happened to independent thought?

Cultural grounding is how we function as a society. It's no more 'bad' than being taught any other form of values. Few people complain about ideals of individuality and personal responsibility being drilled into us, but there's little doubt that such ideas are cultural rather than inherent. If being taught means you're no longer independently thinking, no one in history has been independent in that sense.

[Bewhua]

Cultural grounding is how we function as a society. It's no more 'bad' than being taught any other form of values. Few people complain about ideals of individuality and personal responsibility being drilled into us, but there's little doubt that such ideas are cultural rather than inherent. If being taught means you're no longer independently thinking, no one in history has been independent in that sense.

I disagree. You can perfectly understand that murder is wrong without thinking your nation is amazing and you should always side with them, or that gay people are evil, or that free markets are good, or etc.

How nations have indoctrinated their youth isn't how we function as a society. And independent thought isn't cultural, it's not biased in any way and it's quite simple; demand justification for everything.

[Conserative Morality]

I disagree. You can perfectly understand that murder is wrong without thinking your nation is amazing and you should always side with them, or that gay people are evil, or that free markets are good, or etc.

... none of that is relevant in any way.

How nations have indoctrinated their youth isn't how we function as a society. And independent thought isn't cultural, it's not biased in any way and it's quite simple; demand justification for everything.

Funny how that attitude is so recent and regional for such a universal and 'simple' thing.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Fair enough. One thing though, you mentioned in a debate earlier how you should stand with what has been "drilled" into your mind, right? Well, doesn't that sound very bad? What happened to independent thought?

Cultural grounding is how we function as a society. It's no more 'bad' than being taught any other form of values. Few people complain about ideals of individuality and personal responsibility being drilled into us, but there's little doubt that such ideas are cultural rather than inherent. If being taught means you're no longer independently thinking, no one in history has been independent in that sense.

Many human moral behaviours, such as opposition to murder, are evolutionary in origin (groups of humans which didn't kill each other had a greater chance of survival and reproduction)

[Conserative Morality]

Many human moral behaviours, such as opposition to murder, are evolutionary in origin (groups of humans which didn't kill each other had a greater chance of survival and reproduction)

Funny how opposition to murder is also quite recent. Groups of humans that killed competitors had greater chances of survival and reproduction.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Many human moral behaviours, such as opposition to murder, are evolutionary in origin (groups of humans which didn't kill each other had a greater chance of survival and reproduction)

Funny how opposition to murder is also quite recent. Groups of humans that killed competitors had greater chances of survival and reproduction.

Groups of humans that killed EACH OTHER WITHIN THE GROUP had lesser chances of survival and reproduction. Natural selection.

Also, groups of humans which kill outsiders tend to dehumanise said outsiders.

[Dagnia]

I'm an American citizen and a Rodnover (pre-Christian Slavic paganism). I consider both current US citizens of all races and other Slavs (both those in Slavic nations today as well as those of at least half Slavic descent in other countries) to be my nation or tribe and subscribe to the pre-Christian belief that people outside your tribe or nation are not worth the shit you flush down the toilet. If there is ever a conflict between the two that makes me choose one over the other, I would choose who I consider right in that situation. Most Slavic nations are friendly with the US, however the largest one has many issues. Given the current situation, I believe the issues between the US and this country are manufactured mostly by interests in the US, so I would go against the country of my citizenship, but this is very unlikely to actually happen.

[Mystic Warriors]

Since there is no God and the other is nationalism.. Neither.

[Risottia]

Which do you side with, your religion or your nation? Christianity posits that one cannot have two masters ...

Ni dieu ni maitre!

I do not "side" with anyone as a principle. I'll take the stance I seem to be just and work with those who share my opinion on that matter, but I swear no allegiance.

[The East Marches II]

Which do you side with, your religion or your nation? Christianity posits that one cannot have two masters ...

Ni dieu ni maitre!

I do not "side" with anyone as a principle. I'll take the stance I seem to be just and work with those who share my opinion on that matter, but I swear no allegiance.

I could have sworn you were the arch defender of "mutti" (as you call her) and her band of merry neoliberals, don't tell me you are so "pragmatic" as to eschew that affiliation now

[The East Marches II]

Which do you side with, your religion or your nation? Christianity posits that one cannot have two masters, and even though I'm an atheist, I largely agree with this. There is always a superior and inferior in loyalties. Which is the superior loyalty for you? Which side needs watch you - your coreligionists, or your countrymen?

Such a Catholic and Evangelical view! The State can control the church my good man :^)

[Old Tyrannia]

There is no meaningful distinction between the two for me. I live in a Christian monarchy where church and state are indelibly linked and my Sovereign reigns by the grace of God. The triumph of my country is the triumph of the Christian faith; and what harms the Christian faith harms my country.

[The Parkus Empire]

The state's authority is divinely mandated, it's like asking whether I obey the clergy, or God. The only time I can disobey the state is when I am ordered to do something immoral. I would also disobey it if it became unlawful (as I would clergy which became criminal).