[ACCEPTED] Death Doesn't Discriminate

[Jutsa]

This draft was originally CWA's suggestion for whether gerontricide can take place of ritual sacrifice,
but it since sort-of evolved into more of a "who should be sacrificed" draft in general.
Also, I am very aware of my frightening amount of titles that are also song references...
It was originally called "Only the Old Die Young?"

Draft 1.21

Title: Only the Who Die Young?
The Issue: With the working population becoming more difficult to sustain, and loved ones being wrenched away for sacrifice, the question of who should be targeted has come into question.
Validity: Must have ritual sacrifice; Sex is legal; Adult

Validity: Must not have geronticide
Option 1: "Only the elderly must be sacrificed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, preparing for @@HIS@@ grandfather's untimely death. "Our elders have lived full lives, and know the path to righteousness. Why not end their lives in a religious way? They could rest in grace, and we'd no longer have to kill the working folk. It's an efficient and humane compromise."
[effect] people on the brink of death are put through unwanted and stressful ceremonies
[Flag Change] Applies Geronticide

Validity: Must have geronticide
Option 2: "Only the elderly must be sacrificed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, preparing for @@HIS@@ grandfather's timely geronticidal death. "Our elders have lived full lives, and know the path to righteousness. Why not end their lives in a religious way? They could rest in grace, and we'd no longer have to kill the working folk. It's an efficient and humane compromise."
[effect] people on the brink of death are put through unwanted and stressful ceremonies

Option 3: "The elderly are far too important to society, and frankly not worth sacrificing," argues 55-year-old Professor @@RANDOMNAME@@. "You should instead encourage parents to give their fatally sick or otherwise unwanted children to our cause. You should also let hospitals perform ritual abortions, while you're at it."
[effect] unwanted impregnation is shrugged off as appeasing the gods
[Flag Change] Abortion is legal; Euthanasia is legal

Option 4: "We don't need to sacrifice any @@DEMONYMPLURAL@@ when we could use people from those nameless neighbors of ours," schemes Dr. Leo Cortisol, your underhanded Minister of Underhanded Solutions, which you don't recall hiring. "No one cares about them anyway. Everyone's gotta go some time!"
[effect] @@NAME@@ is suspiciously populated compared to its neighbors

Option 5: "It should not be our place to say when a person must be killed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, whose ancestoral bloodline is from the highly religious nation of Savoiia. "If our children, or our elders, were truly meant to die for a deity, then let the deity kill them; not us. This inhumane and unholy bloodshed must end, and all ritual sacrifice should be outlawed."
[effect] uprooting flowers for religious ceremonies is a felony
[Flag Changes] Removes Ritual Sacrifice

Title: Only the Who Die Young?
The Issue: With the working population becoming more difficult to sustain, and loved ones being wrenched away for sacrifice, the question of who should be targeted has come into question.
Validity: Must have ritual sacrifice; Must not be targeting the poor (if this is even tracked); Adult

Validity: Must not have geronticide
Option 1: "Only the elderly must be sacrificed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, preparing for @@HIS@@ grandfather's untimely death. "Our elders have lived full lives, and know the path to righteousness. Why not end their lives in a religious way? They could rest in grace, and we'd no longer have to kill the working folk. It's an efficient and humane compromise."
[effect] people on the brink of death are put through unwanted and stressful ceremonies
[Flag Change] Applies Geronticide

Validity: Must have geronticide
Option 2: "Only the elderly must be sacrificed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, preparing for @@HIS@@ grandfather's timely geronticidal death. "Our elders have lived full lives, and know the path to righteousness. Why not end their lives in a religious way? They could rest in grace, and we'd no longer have to kill the working folk. It's an efficient and humane compromise."
[effect] people on the brink of death are put through unwanted and stressful ceremonies

Option 3: "Elderly sacrifices are hardly more divine than natural death," argues 55-year-old Professor @@RANDOMNAME@@. "You should instead encourage parents to give their fatally sick or otherwise unwanted children to our cause. You should also let hospitals perform ritual abortions, while you're at it."
[effect] children get jealous when told their many siblings are helping the world
[Flag Change] Abortion is legal; Euthanasia is legal

Option 4: "We don't need to sacrifice any @@DEMONYMPLURAL@@ when we could use people from those nameless neighbors of ours," schemes Dr. Leo Cortisol, your underhanded Minister of Underhanded Solutions, which you don't recall hiring. "No one cares about them anyway. Everyone's gotta go some time!"
[effect] @@NAME@@ is suspiciously populated compared to its neighbors

Option 5: "It should not be our place to say when a person must be killed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, whose ancestoral bloodline is from the highly religious nation of Savoiia. "If our children, or our elders, were truly meant to die for a deity, then let the deity kill them; not us. This inhumane and unholy bloodshed must end, and all state-approved ritual sacrifice should be outlawed."
[effect] people are arrested for trying to help a friend and help the world at the same time
[Flag Changes] Removes Ritual Sacrifice

Title: Only the Who Die Young?
The Issue: With the working population becoming more difficult to sustain, and loved ones being wrenched away for sacrifice, the question of who should be targeted has come into question.
Validity: Must have ritual sacrifice; Must not be targeting the poor (if this is even tracked); Adult

Validity: Must not have geronticide
Option 1: "Only the elderly must be sacrificed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, preparing for @@HIS@@ grandfather's untimely death. "Our elders have lived full lives, and know the path to righteousness. Why not end their lives in a religious way? They could rest in grace, and we'd no longer have to kill the working folk. It's an efficient and humane compromise."
[effect] people on the brink of death are put through unwanted and stressful ceremonies
[Flag Change] Applies Geronticide

Validity: Must have geronticide
Option 2: "Only the elderly must be sacrificed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, preparing for @@HIS@@ grandfather's timely geronticidal death. "Our elders have lived full lives, and know the path to righteousness. Why not end their lives in a religious way? They could rest in grace, and we'd no longer have to kill the working folk. It's an efficient and humane compromise."
[effect] people on the brink of death are put through unwanted and stressful ceremonies

Validity: Sex is legal
Option 3: "Elderly sacrifices are hardly more divine than natural death," argues 55-year-old Professor @@RANDOMNAME@@. "You should instead encourage people to have more children, both to replenish the population and sacrifice fresh, healthy newborns. You could even give mothers a small fee for offering their young to sacrifice."
[effect] children get jealous when told their many siblings are helping the world

Validity: Sex is illegal
Option 4: "Elderly sacrifices are hardly more divine than natural death," argues 55-year-old Professor @@RANDOMNAME@@. "You should instead legalize sexual reproduction so people can produce more children both to replenish the population and cut back on vat maintenance. As a bonus, nobody'll miss the vat-grown lot, so it's win-win."
[effect] people are confused as to who goes where and how
[Flag Change] sexual reproduction is legal

Option 5: "We don't need to sacrifice any @@DEMONYMPLURAL@@ when we could use people from those nameless neighbors of ours," schemes Dr. Neon Cortisol, your underhanded Minister of Underhanded Solutions, which you don't recall hiring. "No one cares about them anyway. Everyone's gotta go some time!"
[effect] @@NAME@@ is suspiciously populated compared to its neighbors

Option 6: "It should not be our place to say when a person must be killed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, whose ancestoral bloodline is from the highly religious nation of Savoiia. "If our children, or our elders, were truly meant to die, then they should not be killed by the hands of man. This inhumane and unholy bloodshed must end, and all state-approved murder should be outlawed."
[effect] people are arrested for trying to help a friend and help the world at the same time
[Flag Changes] Removes Ritual Sacrifice; Removes Geronticide*; Removes Euthenasia*; Removes colliseums*; Murder is illegal*

Title: Only the Who Die Young?
The Issue: With the working population becoming more difficult to sustain, and loves ones being wrenched away for sacrifice, the question of who should be targeted has come into question.
Validity: Must have ritual sacrifice; Must not be targeting the poor (if this is even tracked); Adult

Validity: Must not have geronticide
Option 1: "Only the elderly must be sacrificed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, preparing for @@HIS@@ grandfather's untimely death. "Our elders have lived full lives, and know the path to righteousness. Why not end their lives in a religious way? They could rest in grace, and we'd no longer have to kill the working folk. It's an efficient and humane compromise."
[effect] people on the brink of death are put through unwanted and stressful ceremonies
[Flag Change] Applies Geronticide

Validity: Must have geronticide
Option 2: "Only the elderly must be sacrificed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, preparing for @@HIS@@ grandfather's timely geronticidal death. "Our elders have lived full lives, and know the path to righteousness. Why not end their lives in a religious way? They could rest in grace, and we'd no longer have to kill the working folk. It's an efficient and humane compromise."
[effect] people on the brink of death are put through unwanted and stressful ceremonies

Option 3: "Only the young may be sacrificed," argues Professor @@RANDOMNAME@@, trying to get rid of @@HIS@@ most annoying students. "The elderly are barely better than natural death. We should sacrifice young, healthy and resource-hogging children, and transfer the resources we'd spend on the elderly to help pump out fresh young to sacrifice."
[effect] children get jealous when told their many siblings are helping the world

Option 4: "We don't need to sacrifice any @@DEMONYMPLURAL@@ when we could use people from those nameless neighbors of ours," schemes Dr. Neon Cortisol, your underhanded Minister of Underhanded Solutions, which you don't recall hiring. "No one cares about them anyway. Everyone's gotta go some time!"
[effect] @@NAME@@ is suspiciously populated compared to its neighbors

Option 5: "It should not be our place to say when a person must be killed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, whose ancestoral bloodline is from the highly religious nation of Savoiia. "If our children, or our elders, were truly meant to die, then they should not be killed by the hands of man. This inhumane and unholy bloodshed must end, and all state-approved murder should be outlawed."
[effect] people are arrested for trying to help a friend and help the world at the same time
[Flag Changes] Removes Ritual Sacrifice; Removes Geronticide*; Removes Euthenasia*; Removes colliseums*; Murder is illegal*

[Frieden-und Freudenland]

So wait, having "colosseums" was tracked as a policy?

Anyway, off to my comments.

-------------------
In Option 1, have you written the "preparing for @@HIS@@ grandfather's untimely death" part on purpose? You know, the contradiction between "preparation" and "untimeliness" bothers me a bit. If you're going for a joke here, I'm afraid it doesn't get across to the reader. If you are trying to say, tongue-in-cheek, that this individual is more than ready to send @@HIS@@ grandpa off to the funeral home, then maybe drop a hint that s/he is awaiting a huge inheritance from him, and can therefore not even hide his/her joy at the prospect of having his/her grandpa sacrificed, for example.
-------------------
Option 3:

I feel uneasy about this one. I think the option is a little too wonky. Look, geronticide is cruel, but I understand that one could kinda "justify" that practice by saying that old people use up too many resources while contributing relatively little to the society. Killing young people, however, doesn't make much sense - not even from a callous, money-oriented viewpoint. If you're gonna make this proposal, you need to justify it better. Also, there is the problem of "population shrinkage" if you kill the youngsters. This problem is not addressed either. I hope I can make myself clear. You need to make this professor sound more convincing.
------------------
Option 4:

Is there a joke in Dr. Neon Cortisol? What is it?
------------------

That's all for now. I'll be following this draft.

Best of luck, Jutsa!

[Australian rePublic]

Option 1- wait, what kind of dickhead wants their grandpa to die? At least give a reason for this douchebaggery, something like leaving all his vast inheritance to the cat or something. Of coarse, that would imply capitalism and legalised pets, so... either case, that's n illegitimate reason for activelly wanting someone to die, but still, a reason

[Australian rePublic]

Also, the title should be "Only the Good die when". We know the who. It's the Young part that's indeterminate

[Jutsa]

@Fuf Colliseums: I have no idea if they're tracked or not, tbh. Similarly, I have no idea if killing the poor is tracked or if that even always has to do with ritual sacrifice.
@FuF Option 1: It was kinda left over from when I wrote option 2 (original), but tbh I think it's kinda implied enough as-is. That said, it has a double-meaning which I explain later.
@FuF Option 3: Yeah... maybe I should instead focus on the "baby booming" aspect more. The idea is to get people to produce more babies and sacrifice them instead.
@FuF Option 4: Neo Cortex, some villain I found when looking for good villains.
@Aussie Option 1: I mean, they could believe their grandfather's dying and wants to offer him rather than a younger person with more time left. Remember, this is for nations that already have ritual sacrifice, so, as the speaker says, this is perhaps comparatively humane.
That said, he could be a total douche. Idk, I'll leave that unspecified for now unless I'm encouraged to do otherwise.
@Aussie Title: I'm afraid I don't follow? This issue's kinda about the who... and people die young when they're killed for ritual sacrifice, so I'm afraid I don't follow you.

Note to self for later: Make baby booming a higher priority for option 3.

[Jutsa]

Alrighty, so option 3 got a little complicated because of the whole "sex can be banned" thing,
so this also takes into account nations where it's illegal.

ed: I love how the flag changes and variant options make this so long even though only four options would be visible at a time and they're all only 2 lines long on the draft.

[Jutsa]

So, anyone else thinkin' that this'll have too much overlap with this issue?
Ed: I mean, they're all different options specifically for nations with ritual sacrifice, but the core issue isn't all that different...

[Trotterdam]

So, anyone else thinkin' that this'll have too much overlap with this issue?
Ed: I mean, they're all different options specifically for nations with ritual sacrifice, but the core issue isn't all that different...

I don't see any similarity.

I'm more concerned that the original human sacrifice issue already offered multiple options on who gets sacrificed, even if it's not as many as you are.

Alrighty, so option 3 got a little complicated because of the whole "sex can be banned" thing,
so this also takes into account nations where it's illegal.

Is there a reason you had it bring back sex rather than step up vat production? Does the suffering of vat-grown citizens not please Violet?

[Flag Changes] Removes Ritual Sacrifice; Removes Geronticide*; Removes Euthenasia*; Removes colliseums*; Murder is illegal*

Is there a reason these are in different colors?

Also, if you're going as far as to ban euthanasia, you probably want to ban capital punishment too.

Maybe even abortion, but that's more controversial.

Overall, though, I'd tone it down. People are already less likely to choose a policy reversal option compared to the others, so you shouldn't pile too much extra on top of that.

[Jutsa]

@Similarity: They both kinda involve declining population.

@Other Similarity: Ooh, yeah... "killing the homeless/first born child" does kinda complicate things.
That said, killing the first-born child in nations with a one-child policy could be kinda interesting... but that's for another time.

@Bring back sex: I mean, ideally you'd have both... but, thinking about it, I don't think you can have both, for some reason, so that'll be a small problem.

@Capital punishment: Forgot

@Tone it down: Gotcha.

[Trotterdam]

That said, killing the first-born child in nations with a one-child policy could be kinda interesting... but that's for another time.

Okay, I actually laughed when I read that. Oh, the things you can do in NationStates...

Sensibly, though (to the degree that human sacrifice can be considered sensible), I'd probably interpret it as a one-child-that-you-don't-sacrifice policy. You're allowed to have as many children as you want provided you're willing to give them up at the altar.

For that matter, I've read theories that cultures that practiced child sacrifice may have done so to give parents a way to get rid of unwanted children while feeling good about themselves, rather than actually snatching babies out of the arms of loving parents. Hard to confirm one way or another, given how long ago that allegedly was and that most reports about child sacrifice seem to have come from those cultures' enemies...

[Jutsa]

Hmm... that's very interesting...

It's sorta beyond what I had planned for this issue, but y'know what, "optional ritual sacrifice" might be nice.

In fact, since vats are kinda already brought back in 1028, I could just get rid of that option and replace it with that...

Idk, what are your thoughts? I'm still a little iffy about 1028, and now 58.

[Jutsa]

Oh yeah, also, @Colors: I use blue to indicate "less state enforcement", so no ritual sacrifice/geronticide/colliseums = stuff that's no longer enforced.
On the other hand, red indicates, in this case, "less state-approved freedom to do something", i.e. no more euthenasia or murder.

That's just how my mind works, anyway. Red/Blue ≠ Good/Bad.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Looking good, this issue.

[Jutsa]

Thank you, CWA.

I updated the draft a little bit. I removed everything having to do with vats, and instead option 3 incorporates a stance of letting parents feel good about abortion and sacrificing sick/unwanted children. It'll also hopefully not need a variant option.

I also made the final option remove way less stuff.

I'll keep this up for another week or so, since it was a fairly big change, and leave it up longer if another big change is necessary.

[Trotterdam]

Option 5: "It should not be our place to say when a person must be killed," says @@RANDOMNAME@@, whose ancestoral bloodline is from the highly religious nation of Savoiia.

It's just "ancestral".

"This inhumane and unholy bloodshed must end, and all state-approved ritual sacrifice should be outlawed."

I think you can drop the "state-approved". The current Human Sacrifice policy simply means that human sacrifice is legal, not that the state actively promotes it (though some of the options that grant the policy do also do that). If you meant "state-approved" as a synonym for "legal", then that's just redundant with the demand it be outlawed.

[effect] people are arrested for trying to help a friend and help the world at the same time

...I don't get this effect line?

[effect] children get jealous when told their many siblings are helping the world

Actually, I'm not sure about this effect line either. It seems to be a holdover from the old option?

Is it the children who are getting sacrificed getting jealous of the ones who aren't, or the ones who aren't getting jealous of the ones who are? The idea that being sacrificed is seen as an honor worth competing for is an interesting one, but it would require some good propaganda and a very religious populace to get people to go along with it.

[Jutsa]

@Ancestral: Thank you... I really should spellcheck my drafts better.

@State-Approved: Left over from state-approved murder in the previous draft.

@Effect lines: Eh, effect lines are really supposed to be funny, so I'll change them both.

The original idea behind both of them was to inject a subtle, dark think about what those options entail.
After all, a nation with ritual sacrifice probably has people who think it's the right thing to do,
hence @5) children getting jealous and @3) a really subtle way of saying someone's arrested for doing what they think is right,
although saying "killing a friend to save them as well as help appease a deity" is a lot more grim and a lot less seemingly nonsense
than "helping a friend". It's also shorter.

Problem is this is a somewhat darker issue so funny effect lines, which are hard enough for me, are even harder to come by.
Still, I'll replace them shortly after this post. Tell me what you think of them.

Oh, also, this issue probably wouldn't be a problem for nations without vats, so instead of making a variant option to 3, I'ma add that to the criteria of the whole issue.

Ed: Done, though honestly if an editor decides to work on this and comes up with something better I will in no way be insulted.
Also, changed the wording in the intro to option 3(first non-conditional one) because what it offers also changed.

[Jutsa]

I think this'll be my final bump for this draft, unless a major edit takes place again.

[Sacara]

My only comment is for option three: why are the elderly too important to society to be sacrificed?

[Jutsa]

Uh... yes, good question. My idea was that they were too wise and experienced but actually they could be considered a resource hog.

Eh idk, it could be he's just saying that but... misdirection isn't ideal either. Hard to really find another way about that option, though,
if you have any ideas, I'll be glad to take them.

[Hediacrana]

Dark stuff, this issue

Regarding your problem for option 3, maybe only innocent, pure, souls, in other words, the young, make a worthy sacrifice to the gods, whereas the elderly can be assumed to have had a lifetime of opportunities for sinful thoughts and actions? It would be somewhat consistent with the cultural trope of sacrificing virgins.

[Trotterdam]

Regarding your problem for option 3, maybe only innocent, pure, souls, in other words, the young, make a worthy sacrifice to the gods, whereas the elderly can be assumed to have had a lifetime of opportunities for sinful thoughts and actions? It would be somewhat consistent with the cultural trope of sacrificing virgins.

That, plus it's not much of a "sacrifice" to kill people who probably didn't have long left to live anyway.

[Jutsa]

Nearly a month later, I think it's about time this issue gets submitted.
ed: Yeah jeez this thing's been up since mid June .-.

Here's hoping I'm not missing anything super important that can't be handled in the editor room... <:)

Thank you all for your help.
ed: also fixed ancestral from ancestoral...