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[PASSED] Repeal "Crime and Punishment"

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Cute Puppies
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 155
Founded: Apr 12, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Cute Puppies » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:33 pm

No. Your replacement proposal is far from ready, so proposing to repeal Crime and Punishment without a suitable replacement is an extremely hasty move.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:59 pm

ELSIE MORTIMER WELLESLEY: You don't need a very complicated and forever drafted proposal to end capital punishment. You say – Bernard, write this down – The World Assembly prohibits all member nations from executing any person within its jurisdiction.

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Kenmoria
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Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:29 pm

"In clause d, the death penalty is not solely retributive, many of the arguements for it rely on its, perceived or actual, deterrence."
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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DeltaSource
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Founded: Apr 24, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Cpital Punishent needs to stay.

Postby DeltaSource » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:30 am

In DeltaSource Capital Punishment is the only thingkeeping the people in line. I would reccomend you delete this disgusting capitalist propaganda immedietly.
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The First German Order
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Founded: Dec 08, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The First German Order » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:49 am

DeltaSource wrote:In DeltaSource Capital Punishment is the only thingkeeping the people in line. I would reccomend you delete this disgusting capitalist propaganda immedietly.

“If capital punishment is the only thing keep your citizens in line, then your nation really needs to invest in a better police force, ambassador. Also, even though I’m not in favor of this repeal, it’s not very polite to tell someone to trash their proposal, and call it ‘disgusting capitalist propaganda’. As a matter of fact, it’s a great way to get yourself a terrible reputation around here.”
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New-Brussels
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 61
Founded: Mar 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby New-Brussels » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:11 am

The First German Order wrote:
DeltaSource wrote:In DeltaSource Capital Punishment is the only thingkeeping the people in line. I would reccomend you delete this disgusting capitalist propaganda immedietly.

“If capital punishment is the only thing keep your citizens in line, then your nation really needs to invest in a better police force, ambassador. Also, even though I’m not in favor of this repeal, it’s not very polite to tell someone to trash their proposal, and call it ‘disgusting capitalist propaganda’. As a matter of fact, it’s a great way to get yourself a terrible reputation around here.”


"As any geologist could tell you, the words 'Delta' and 'Source' are complete antonyms. This makes this person's nation an oxymoron. Such a flamboyant figure of speech can only attributed to a people who is neither oxy nor moron, leading me to interpret his quip as a jest, at most."

OOC: is joke
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Kenmoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5242
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:10 am

DeltaSource wrote:In DeltaSource Capital Punishment is the only thingkeeping the people in line. I would reccomend you delete this disgusting capitalist propaganda immedietly.

"I firmly believe that one can be part of a successful nation that does not impose the death penalty upon its citizens, such as Kenmoria. A long term in prison can to some people be worse due to the negative effects long-term confinement. I also fail to see how this is capitalist, I have had experience in dealing with many capitalist nations that have the death penalty. You also could have perhaps offered some constructive criticism instead of just blindly attacking the whole proposal, ambassador."
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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United Massachusetts
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Posts: 2456
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:24 pm

bump
United Massachusetts
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Assistant: Father Carl Sullivan

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Queen Yuno wrote:You have a very contradictory rep yourself, [UM].
Sanctaria wrote:We get it. You're pro-life.
Davelands wrote:(UM tries to slip another one by)
Wallenburg wrote:You've got to be the most ignorant person on this Discord.
Davelands wrote:Remember that United Mass is extremely on the religious right side. Look for hidden gotcha's for later. He is playing a long game with proposals...
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:07 pm

Still opposed. Capital punishment has its uses.
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Separatist Peoples
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Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:11 pm

Wallenburg wrote:Still opposed. Capital punishment has its uses.

"Hard disagree, ambassador. Capital punishment rarely deters crime, serves no rehabilitation benefit, and does not contain lawbreakers from the general population more effectively than imprisonment would. It's purely retributive, which is a poor way to run a justice system to my mind."

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Araraukar
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:59 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:"Hard disagree, ambassador. Capital punishment rarely deters crime, serves no rehabilitation benefit, and does not contain lawbreakers from the general population more effectively than imprisonment would. It's purely retributive, which is a poor way to run a justice system to my mind."

"It is, however, more humane than decades of solitary confinement, which is a necessity for prisoners who would otherwise get the death penalty. And I say this as someone who was technically executed for treason."

OOC: To those who don't know, there was a behind the scenes kind of deal between Araraukarian government and the PPU hivemind, to transfer the ownership of a fairly large volcanic island off the coast of Araraukar to the hivemind, and that resulted in a war between the nations that was only a war on paper. Johan Milkus (person speaking above) was at the time a Liaison Officer between the two nations, so technically he knew about the hivemind's plans for "invasion" beforehand, and failed to (honestly, he was ordered not to) file a public warning about it, and thus was sentenced to death for treason.

Janis Leveret, the proper ambassador (Johan is just the acting one while she's away) of Araraukar to WA, got the "peace treaty" between Araraukar and PPU named after her (and has been fuming about that, as there was no war so the peace treaty is just bureaucracy, whereas her precedessor's name is on a global nuclear weapon ban), so she used the political leverage from that to make it so that Johan was technically executed - that is, he was officially dead (no respiration, no heartbeat) for three minutes, as required by Araraukarian law - but was resuscitated and is now more or less in exile in WAHQ. If he returns to Araraukar, he'll be outside of all systems (as he's legally dead) and likely would be deported.

As for where Janis is and why she hasn't been back for months? That is truly a mystery... *shifty eyes*
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Tinfect
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Posts: 4729
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Tinfect » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:06 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:[...]
Convinced that such a ban would be desirable for the following reasons:
The finality of the death penalty prevents the state from correcting any errors made in the legal and conviction processes, thereby inevitably condemning to death certain innocent individuals,


"The incompetence of foreign judicial systems is of little concern to the Imperium, Ambassador." Said Feren, waving a rolled up copy of the draft about pointedly, "If one's courts make conviction of the innocent a common affair, perhaps it is best that you examine your own laws and institutions?"

United Massachusetts wrote:A great many individuals facing the death penalty are unable to afford their own attorneys, and are often forced to rely on overburdened public defense mechanisms,


"This is not grounds for the repeal of any such legislation, Ambassador; merely one for the passage of legislation requiring that Member-States operate their criminal courts so as to eliminate the need for such intermediaries, such as the Imperium's, or to merely properly support their 'public defense mechanisms'."

United Massachusetts wrote:Any long legal process associated with the death penalty is bound to extend the pain and frustrations of crime victims, rather than provide the closure they need and desire,


"This makes two assumptions, Ambassador, both of which are simply unfounded. Criminal cases wherein death is the mandated punishment require no additional extensions beyond those of more mundane mandates; assuming, of course, that one's government has any concern for ensuring the competence, or even simple legality, of its criminal courts. The second assumption; that victims, should any survive to be considered, be involved in any such proceedings any more than is strictly necessary, is, frankly, absurd. Additionally, it is a minor consideration in any case; the purpose of a criminal trial is to determine criminality; while certainly the harm of the act is the reason for the law, it is the law, that is the reason for prosecution. If the enforcement of the law necessitates an extended trial, then the trial will be extended; if the enforcement of the law requires that a criminal be put to death, they will be put to death. It is a simple matter of the rule of law."

United Massachusetts wrote:The predominantly retributive model of justice employed by the death penalty has failed to deter crime in any provable way,


"It is not intended to serve as a deterrent, Ambassador, and indeed, it is demonstrably ineffective as such, as crimes justifying its use are rarely committed with fear of consequence. Certainly simple deterrent as a means of preventing crime and justifying sentencing is... questionable, at best, Ambassador. If an individual cannot be safely returned to society, then society, through the power of the State, is justified in eliminating the individual, simply as a matter of self defense."

United Massachusetts wrote:Permitting the death penalty represents a rejection of the notion that life has intrinsic worth merely by virtue of its existence,


"This... is simply wrong, Ambassador. While the remaining primitivists of the Imperium are certainly mistaken in their beliefs regarding life, they have, historically, been ardent supporters of the use of capital punishments, from simple exsanguination, to living burial. The Imperium uses a more humane method, but certainly while the idea of intrinsic value in life is absurd, it is not necessarily incompatible with the belief that such can be devalued by certain acts."

United Massachusetts wrote:Seeking, therefore, to empower this Assembly once again to ban the morally problematic,


"What is morally problematic, Ambassador, is the expectation that Member-States be required to support the lives of serial murderers and child molesters, until death, when the World Assembly cannot even ensure the lives and prosperity of all law-abiding citizens."

United Massachusetts wrote:unmerciful,


"Mercy is hardly a virtue when faced with acts that are, if you will excuse the impropriety, deeply evil, Ambassador. Clearly you recognize such, but fail to understand that more advanced societies than your own may not share your acceptance and support for certain such acts."

United Massachusetts wrote:outdated practice of capital punishment,


"There is nothing obsolete about putting a pulse rifle to a criminal's head and firing, Ambassador. Indeed, it is the least painful, and most efficient method, available to the Imperium. Perhaps your government would be served by devising a tool more advanced than a hanging noose, prior to reinstating the practice?

Needless to say by now, the Imperium finds this legislation greatly lacking, and will not support it, or any further variation upon it."
Last edited by Tinfect on Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2456
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:29 pm

bump
United Massachusetts
World Assembly Mission

Pro-Life Social Democratic Catholic
Ambassador: Bishop Alexander Pierce

Deputy Outreach Minister, The Rejected Realms
Assistant: Father Carl Sullivan

President, Right to Life
Author/Co-author: 7 GA, 2 SC resolutions

Queen Yuno wrote:You have a very contradictory rep yourself, [UM].
Sanctaria wrote:We get it. You're pro-life.
Davelands wrote:(UM tries to slip another one by)
Wallenburg wrote:You've got to be the most ignorant person on this Discord.
Davelands wrote:Remember that United Mass is extremely on the religious right side. Look for hidden gotcha's for later. He is playing a long game with proposals...
Stat Crux dum volvitur orbis
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Kenmoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5242
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:10 am

"In the final clause, 'morally problematic' is quite a weak phrase, I recommend just opting for 'immoral' to convey a stronger effect."
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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The Sakhalinsk Empire
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 460
Founded: Jan 27, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby The Sakhalinsk Empire » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:16 am

OOC: I know that I'm not a WA member but it is because my WA member state is for R/D/L.

IC: "Opposed. Capital punishment is a long-standing tradition here in the Sakhalinsk Empire, and we will defend it to the last man. A life for a life is a fair trade."
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United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2456
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:01 pm

This has been submitted.
United Massachusetts
World Assembly Mission

Pro-Life Social Democratic Catholic
Ambassador: Bishop Alexander Pierce

Deputy Outreach Minister, The Rejected Realms
Assistant: Father Carl Sullivan

President, Right to Life
Author/Co-author: 7 GA, 2 SC resolutions

Queen Yuno wrote:You have a very contradictory rep yourself, [UM].
Sanctaria wrote:We get it. You're pro-life.
Davelands wrote:(UM tries to slip another one by)
Wallenburg wrote:You've got to be the most ignorant person on this Discord.
Davelands wrote:Remember that United Mass is extremely on the religious right side. Look for hidden gotcha's for later. He is playing a long game with proposals...
Stat Crux dum volvitur orbis
The Cross stands steady, though the Earth is turning


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Bears Armed
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Posts: 18644
Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Bears Armed » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:05 am

OOC; I was sorely tempted to call it illegal under the 'Honest Mistake' rule, because its clause 'c' says
any long legal process associated with the death penalty is bound to extend the pain and frustrations of crime victims, rather than provide the closure they need and desire,
but the target resolution doesn't require the sort of ridiculously drawn-out process that occurs in the RL USA. I haven't done so, but if & when this gets to vote I will definitely be arguing IC that sentencing the convicted to long imprisonment rather than to a [relatively] speedy execution is bound to have that effect on the crime victims...
Last edited by Bears Armed on Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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United Massachusetts
Minister
 
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Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:13 am

Bears Armed wrote:OOC; I was sorely tempted to call it illegal under the 'Honest Mistake' rule, because its clause 'c' says
any long legal process associated with the death penalty is bound to extend the pain and frustrations of crime victims, rather than provide the closure they need and desire,
but the target resolution doesn't require the sort of ridiculously drawn-out process that occurs in the RL USA. I haven't done so, but if & when this gets to vote I will definitely be arguing IC that sentencing the convicted to long imprisonment rather than to a [relatively] speedy execution is bound to have that effect on the crime victims...

The resolution banned summary executions and called for a fair trial for those facing death. That would appear to necessitate, in most states, a far more thorough legal process.
United Massachusetts
World Assembly Mission

Pro-Life Social Democratic Catholic
Ambassador: Bishop Alexander Pierce

Deputy Outreach Minister, The Rejected Realms
Assistant: Father Carl Sullivan

President, Right to Life
Author/Co-author: 7 GA, 2 SC resolutions

Queen Yuno wrote:You have a very contradictory rep yourself, [UM].
Sanctaria wrote:We get it. You're pro-life.
Davelands wrote:(UM tries to slip another one by)
Wallenburg wrote:You've got to be the most ignorant person on this Discord.
Davelands wrote:Remember that United Mass is extremely on the religious right side. Look for hidden gotcha's for later. He is playing a long game with proposals...
Stat Crux dum volvitur orbis
The Cross stands steady, though the Earth is turning


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Fauxia
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Posts: 4015
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fauxia » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:29 am

I’m not going to submit a legality challenge because I don’t understand the General Assembly enough, but can someone explain to me how this doesn’t violate the honest mistake rule?

Repeal wrote:the finality of the death penalty prevents the state from correcting any errors made in the legal and conviction processes, thereby inevitably condemning to death certain innocent individuals,


But the target resolution says:
Requires member nations to take every possible measure to ensure that innocent people are never executed


That seems to me to ban capital punishment in cases where there’s a shadow of a doubt of the guilt of the individual, thereby making this an honest mistake violation.

What am I missing?
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Aclion
Senator
 
Posts: 4527
Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Aclion » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:55 am

United Massachusetts wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:OOC; I was sorely tempted to call it illegal under the 'Honest Mistake' rule, because its clause 'c' says
any long legal process associated with the death penalty is bound to extend the pain and frustrations of crime victims, rather than provide the closure they need and desire,
but the target resolution doesn't require the sort of ridiculously drawn-out process that occurs in the RL USA. I haven't done so, but if & when this gets to vote I will definitely be arguing IC that sentencing the convicted to long imprisonment rather than to a [relatively] speedy execution is bound to have that effect on the crime victims...

The resolution banned summary executions and called for a fair trial for those facing death. That would appear to necessitate, in most states, a far more thorough legal process.

Why? We require a fair trial in all convictions.

Fauxia wrote:I’m not going to submit a legality challenge because I don’t understand the General Assembly enough, but can someone explain to me how this doesn’t violate the honest mistake rule?

Repeal wrote:the finality of the death penalty prevents the state from correcting any errors made in the legal and conviction processes, thereby inevitably condemning to death certain innocent individuals,


But the target resolution says:
Requires member nations to take every possible measure to ensure that innocent people are never executed


That seems to me to ban capital punishment in cases where there’s a shadow of a doubt of the guilt of the individual, thereby making this an honest mistake violation.

What am I missing?

Dunno, But I observe that not executing people is a "possible measure to ensure that innocent people are never executed" and therefore we are required to do it.
Last edited by Aclion on Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2456
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:04 am

Aclion wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:The resolution banned summary executions and called for a fair trial for those facing death. That would appear to necessitate, in most states, a far more thorough legal process.

Why? We require a fair trial in all convictions.

Because the resolution explicitly says that we have to take more care in death penalty sentences than other convictions. In practicality, this looks like drawn out trials.
Fauxia wrote:I’m not going to submit a legality challenge because I don’t understand the General Assembly enough, but can someone explain to me how this doesn’t violate the honest mistake rule?

Repeal wrote:the finality of the death penalty prevents the state from correcting any errors made in the legal and conviction processes, thereby inevitably condemning to death certain innocent individuals,


But the target resolution says:
Requires member nations to take every possible measure to ensure that innocent people are never executed


That seems to me to ban capital punishment in cases where there’s a shadow of a doubt of the guilt of the individual, thereby making this an honest mistake violation.

What am I missing?

National legal systems are not infalliable.
United Massachusetts
World Assembly Mission

Pro-Life Social Democratic Catholic
Ambassador: Bishop Alexander Pierce

Deputy Outreach Minister, The Rejected Realms
Assistant: Father Carl Sullivan

President, Right to Life
Author/Co-author: 7 GA, 2 SC resolutions

Queen Yuno wrote:You have a very contradictory rep yourself, [UM].
Sanctaria wrote:We get it. You're pro-life.
Davelands wrote:(UM tries to slip another one by)
Wallenburg wrote:You've got to be the most ignorant person on this Discord.
Davelands wrote:Remember that United Mass is extremely on the religious right side. Look for hidden gotcha's for later. He is playing a long game with proposals...
Stat Crux dum volvitur orbis
The Cross stands steady, though the Earth is turning


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Uan aa Boa
Diplomat
 
Posts: 819
Founded: Apr 23, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Uan aa Boa » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:39 am

Full support for a ban on capital punishment.

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Sciongrad
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 2998
Founded: Mar 11, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Sciongrad » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:34 am

Fauxia wrote:I’m not going to submit a legality challenge because I don’t understand the General Assembly enough, but can someone explain to me how this doesn’t violate the honest mistake rule?

Repeal wrote:the finality of the death penalty prevents the state from correcting any errors made in the legal and conviction processes, thereby inevitably condemning to death certain innocent individuals,


But the target resolution says:
Requires member nations to take every possible measure to ensure that innocent people are never executed


That seems to me to ban capital punishment in cases where there’s a shadow of a doubt of the guilt of the individual, thereby making this an honest mistake violation.

What am I missing?

OOC: Just because the target resolution requires nations to take every possible measure to prevent error does not mean that there is no error. If I wrote a resolution that required firefighters to take every practical measure to put out fires, would it be an honest mistake for a repeal to note that fires still happen?
Natalia Santos, Plenipotentiary and Permanent Scionite Representative to the World Assembly


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Egoplis
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Aug 11, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Egoplis » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:54 am

Justice is not merciful, and it never should be. I can get what you are thinking, but perhaps limitations may be imposed if you feel so strongly.

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 14437
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:23 am

Egoplis wrote:Justice is not merciful, and it never should be. I can get what you are thinking, but perhaps limitations may be imposed if you feel so strongly.

"Justice has to be merciful to be justice. Punishment in excess of what is necessary to accomplish a goal is itself unjust."

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