Vovodoco wrote:First of all, this thread needs a poll.
Second of all, I'm an individualist. I believe that the moral and intellectual maximum begins and ends with the individual.
Sounds like the antithesis of civilization.
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by Lowell Leber » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Vovodoco wrote:First of all, this thread needs a poll.
Second of all, I'm an individualist. I believe that the moral and intellectual maximum begins and ends with the individual.
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Slava Ukraini
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by Cute Puppies » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:55 pm
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:As I grow older, morals seems to be a mixture of both objectivity and subjectivity. Subjectivity in that yes, as OP pointed out, they tend to be influenced by culture and even family and these can be very different according to place and familiarity. And objectivity due to some morals being universal, like do not murder.
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:58 pm
Cute Puppies wrote:Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:As I grow older, morals seems to be a mixture of both objectivity and subjectivity. Subjectivity in that yes, as OP pointed out, they tend to be influenced by culture and even family and these can be very different according to place and familiarity. And objectivity due to some morals being universal, like do not murder.
Wouldn't you say that the "objectivity" or the idea of murder being immoral simply subjective to the society you're born into? Some societies and groups, in certain circumstances condone and the promote use of violence and murder, and may even consider it moral. ISIS, as the most extreme example, believed murdering people whether it be belligerents actively combating them or innocent civilians to be justified and moral.
Slava Ukraini
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Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
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by Novskya » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:58 pm
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:As I grow older, morals seems to be a mixture of both objectivity and subjectivity. Subjectivity in that yes, as OP pointed out, they tend to be influenced by culture and even family and these can be very different according to place and familiarity.
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:And objectivity due to some morals being universal, like do not murder.
by Cute Puppies » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:02 pm
Novskya wrote:Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:As I grow older, morals seems to be a mixture of both objectivity and subjectivity. Subjectivity in that yes, as OP pointed out, they tend to be influenced by culture and even family and these can be very different according to place and familiarity.
Morality is independent of culture. What is moral is to be rationally deduced, thus is universal to all rational beings.
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:05 pm
Cute Puppies wrote:Novskya wrote:Morality is independent of culture. What is moral is to be rationally deduced, thus is universal to all rational beings.
Then why is it only now that something like homosexuality is becoming more accepted in society and people believe less in the idea that homosexuality is immoral? I would argue that it's because of our changing culture, and the greater representation of homosexual people on media.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGsRIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria
by Novskya » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:12 pm
Cute Puppies wrote:Novskya wrote:Morality is independent of culture. What is moral is to be rationally deduced, thus is universal to all rational beings.
Then why is it only now that something like homosexuality is becoming more accepted in society and people believe less in the idea that homosexuality is immoral? I would argue that it's because of our changing culture, and the greater representation of homosexual people on media.
by Cute Puppies » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:15 pm
Novskya wrote:Cute Puppies wrote:Then why is it only now that something like homosexuality is becoming more accepted in society and people believe less in the idea that homosexuality is immoral? I would argue that it's because of our changing culture, and the greater representation of homosexual people on media.
Refer to this:
I would agree with your last part on the "changing culture" and "greater representation" that has made homosexuality become socially acceptable. While people did consider the act of being homosexual to be a sin (although it was more so with the "acting upon homosexual tendencies is a sin" rather than being homosexual if I remember correctly), the actuality of homosexuals being immoral has since been thrown out if we secularize our perception. Even though I believe in a God, I don't base my moral system on the heteronomous wills of divinity, instead utilizing a synthetic a priori conception of morality to determine right and wrong.
What you assume with that is the same mistake many other people make: what is percieved moral is what is moral (although the thread here seems to add upon that with "...and since perceptions of what is moral differs, thus morality is subjective.").
by Novskya » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:02 pm
Cute Puppies wrote:I'm confused. I believe subjective morals to be a moral system formed by what people experience and witness around them - essentially what they perceive. So in a way, are non-moral relativism somewhat similar to subjective morality?
by Sovaal » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:23 pm
by Dogmeat » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:26 pm
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:As I grow older, morals seems to be a mixture of both objectivity and subjectivity. Subjectivity in that yes, as OP pointed out, they tend to be influenced by culture and even family and these can be very different according to place and familiarity. And objectivity due to some morals being universal, like do not murder.
by Arkandros » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:53 pm
by Krasny-Volny » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:03 pm
Cute Puppies wrote:Personally, I believe that morals are subjective - based off of cultural influences, the people around us, our own experiences, and the society we're born into. That's what I believe that one person may consider homosexuality immoral while I find it neutral, or why I consider stealing candy from a baby totally acceptable while others may contend that that's morally wrong.
by Albrenia » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:04 pm
Krasny-Volny wrote:Cute Puppies wrote:Personally, I believe that morals are subjective - based off of cultural influences, the people around us, our own experiences, and the society we're born into. That's what I believe that one person may consider homosexuality immoral while I find it neutral, or why I consider stealing candy from a baby totally acceptable while others may contend that that's morally wrong.
We all know certain things are wrong - genocide, for instance.
Are you honestly suggesting the Holocaust was not immoral?
by Theris Carencia » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:12 pm
Neutraligon wrote:Cekoviu wrote:Morality is subjective, of course. That seems obvious to me, but I suppose I could see a religion-based case being made for objective morality.
I can really only think of one where it would be subjective. Any religion that has a god dictating it would still be subjective.
by Krasny-Volny » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:19 pm
Novskya wrote:Non-relative, objective, universal, whatever you call it morality is very much the opposite. In defining this, I would wish to cast away the notion that objective morality is "everyone having the same morality". As I have stated before in a previous post, when I use the term "objective morality" and thus "non-relative morality", I mean that morality applies to all rational beings equally. If I murder someone then the murder is wrong, even though someone might see it as right. This moral system is, as I've stated before earlier, is derived from reason rather than experience. Since non-relative/objective morality is (generally) derived from reason alone, this contradicts the empirically founded subjective morality.
by Krasny-Volny » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:20 pm
by Krasny-Volny » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:26 pm
Albrenia wrote:This thread has many big words.
by Dogmeat » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:26 pm
by Krasny-Volny » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:29 pm
Dogmeat wrote:Krasny-Volny wrote:
Ah, but that does not make the Holocaust any less immoral.
If I fervently believed the earth was flat, that would not make it any less spherical.
Because that's based upon physical reality.
Grind the universe into the finest powder, and all that.
by Albrenia » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:29 pm
by Dogmeat » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:31 pm
Krasny-Volny wrote:Dogmeat wrote:Because that's based upon physical reality.
Grind the universe into the finest powder, and all that.
I'm a believer in the objective morality Novskya discusses in the post I quoted above.
Just because something isn't empirically measurable - like say, the physical shape of the planet - that does not make it any less of an objective fact.
by Albrenia » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:31 pm
Theris Carencia wrote:Neutraligon wrote:I can really only think of one where it would be subjective. Any religion that has a god dictating it would still be subjective.
Ah, the Euthyphro dilemma! "Is a thing pious because the gods hold it dear, or do the gods hold it dear because it is pious?"
Yes, the original was about piety specifically rather than about morality in general. And if you skeptics bothered to read the dialogue past the little magic bullet, you'd find a line of questioning that bites to the heart of the very notion of organized religion. But you never do.
Thanks for making things easy for us religious folks!
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