NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

[The Akasha Colony]

Why not? Using PMC, one could officially lend help, without formal DOW, because technically, they're PMC, not soldiers.

Formal declarations of war are hardly an obstacle. The United States has not formally declared war since WWII, but that has hardly stopped the US from deploying combat troops across the globe for decades in every capacity from basic garrisons to literal high-intensity conflicts and outright invasions of reasonably large countries like Iraq. Modern "declarations of war" are couched in terms like "Authorization for the Use of Military Force" or UN Security Council resolutions.

People aren't dumb. When you deploy a bunch of soldiers, even if you don't literally write "this means war" on a piece of paper, they know a war when they see one. And they will react in the same way to a hostile armed action regardless of whether there is a "declaration of war" or not.

There's also the whole problem where you cannot have a state-owned private military company. No one cares exactly which organ of the state is lending assistance, they simply care what form that assistance takes. If Vladimir Putin transferred every Russian soldier deployed to Ukraine to a new "local police force" rather than retaining them as part of the military, it would not change a thing. They're still doing the same thing and providing the same assistance. The unit patch they happen to wear on their shoulder is irrelevant in this case.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Why not? Using PMC, one could officially lend help, without formal DOW, because technically, they're PMC, not soldiers.

Formal declarations of war are hardly an obstacle. The United States has not formally declared war since WWII, but that has hardly stopped the US from deploying combat troops across the globe for decades in every capacity from basic garrisons to literal high-intensity conflicts and outright invasions of reasonably large countries like Iraq. Modern "declarations of war" are couched in terms like "Authorization for the Use of Military Force" or UN Security Council resolutions.

People aren't dumb. When you deploy a bunch of soldiers, even if you don't literally write "this means war" on a piece of paper, they know a war when they see one. And they will react in the same way to a hostile armed action regardless of whether there is a "declaration of war" or not.

There's also the whole problem where you cannot have a state-owned private military company. No one cares exactly which organ of the state is lending assistance, they simply care what form that assistance takes. If Vladimir Putin transferred every Russian soldier deployed to Ukraine to a new "local police force" rather than retaining them as part of the military, it would not change a thing. They're still doing the same thing and providing the same assistance. The unit patch they happen to wear on their shoulder is irrelevant in this case.

An AUMF is not always needed. The President of the United States has the power to deploy combat troops for 60 days, with an additional 30 day withdrawal period, under the War Powers Act.

[Gallia-]

they know a war when they see one.

If only that were true.

[The Akasha Colony]

An AUMF is not always needed. The President of the United States has the power to deploy combat troops for 60 days, with an additional 30 day withdrawal period, under the War Powers Act.

When did I say an AUMF was always needed?

[The Manticoran Empire]

An AUMF is not always needed. The President of the United States has the power to deploy combat troops for 60 days, with an additional 30 day withdrawal period, under the War Powers Act.

When did I say an AUMF was always needed?

You didn't. However your sentence regarding how modern declarations of war take the form of an AUMF did leave out the 60 day loophole the President has.

[Gallia-]

Using PMC, one could officially lend help, without formal DOW, because technically, they're PMC, not soldiers.

The alleged benefit of a PMC is the plausible deniability it brings, but you'll still be finding Russian flags or American patches among the enemy's corpses.

Heh... Anime lovers...

My waifu could beat you up.

What if the Presidential Guard also function as PMC. Or the National Guard?

Coup d'etat to the highest bidder.

I'll think about the MIC. The general thing is, the state did have nearly 100% capability to produce equipment from scratch.

So does the United States Army. No one cares about it because a state-owned MIC or MIC in general is generally small, unless you are the Soviet Union, where the "M" and the "I" are one and the same. So unless you've taken the sort of route of industrialization that involves "industrialize for military/state products" vs. "industrialize for consumer products" which is something that appears to be impossible unless you are Russia (the PRC is unique among Marxist civilizations in that it has evolved the ability to weaponize cheap electronic consumer goods, a truly ground breaking military innovation) anyway you are basically stuck with asking a bunch of small output ateliers to shell out their own pocket money to give you guns.

Either have an extremely nationalist population whose entire collective identity is built around "exporting the revolution" and fill military requirements with patriotic fervor alone, EMBRACE THE GHOST OF LENIN, or accept that you'll need to import a lot of things like computers, operating systems, and small arms, because you simply lack the industry, foundations, and raw economic power to become a true military autarky.

You didn't. However your sentence regarding how modern declarations of war take the form of an AUMF did leave out the 60 day loophole the President has.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/03/worl ... veled.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

The only thing that keeps the United States and other Western/Free World states from launching an all out atomic assault on Russia are their morals and perhaps the belief that they can outlast Russia's massive all-out attack on Western civilization TBH. Since modern wars, like old wars, are waged across the entire spectrum of society there isn't really a difference between a "PMC", "armed forces", "defense contractor", or "telecommunications company". They're all weapons to be used to beat your enemies to death or, as increasingly becomes the case, to maneuver yourself into a superior position economically, politically, and militarily to destroy your enemy.

[Theodosiya]

It's just 2D, Gallia. Come on...


Also, good luck finding Theodosiya flag on the semi state owned PMC. Semi, because owned by few retired generals, and about 40% state owned. 60% split equally between 6 generals, from PVO, VVS, SA, VMF, RVSN and KGB. Also, mostly using copies US and German equipment, with few Russian sprinkled in.

Good news is, we could license newer stuffs, because the industry is capable to produce small arms, tanks, few electronics, engines, parts for aircraft and ships. Bad news, not really enough to supply 100% of needs, "only" 60%. Sourced the rest from private MIC and foreign. Not a real military autarky, but better than entirely relying on private and foreign sector. Maybe somewhere below Poland and Russia, but better than average former SSR republics.

[Gallia-]

Holo could drink you under the table and throw the table on top of you. She could drink me under the table. She could probably drink "Questers" under the table. Truly a master of the "functional alcoholism". Best waifu. Best pup.

[Theodosiya]

Holo could drink you under the table and throw the table on top of you. She could drink me under the table. She could probably drink "Questers" under the table. Truly a master of the "functional alcoholism". Best waifu. Best pup.

Oh man...

Seriously? Functional alcoholic? You, of all people? I don't think one could function well while drunk. Only when one is sober, he/she/it could function 100% optimal. Not against alcohol, you see, but, this is NS MilRealism.

[Gallia-]

I live on the top of a hill that itself exists on a hill which is also on a mound. Moundception. Such is "the Ozarks". The ride to the pub is entirely downhill and lies about a mile (that's "2 km" for Eurasians) away at the bottom. I literally cannot make it back home sober my puny stick legs would quit. Only with the power of ethanol and anaerobic respiration is it possible for me to surmount the...mount. Truly the most vicious of circles.

[Iltica]

This is a terrible idea, but instead of thinking of it as a state-owned 'P'MC, you could view it as "renting out" small portions of the regular armed forces to other nations for a fee. Essentially you're an "ally for hire", making other nations pay you to fight for them.
You would, in many people's eyes, be invading and attacking other nations every time you do this. Then again, I've never really understood why that isn't the case when a normal PMC does anything on foreign soil so maybe no one will care idk.

[Kanugues Wed]

What do you think of the idea of having both private MIC and design bureaus?

[Zhouran]

No one really would. Because despite what you see in anime and Call of Duty, IRL PMCs just provide boring services like laundry and cooking and at best basic rent-a-cop protection for people who don't rank high enough for a DSS escort. They don't actually run around and fight wars on their own for cash. No PMC actually has the ability to go in independently into a foreign country to conduct operations. PMCs exist largely to fill in support services that militaries have increasingly outsourced in order to preserve precious manpower for more vital combat functions which are harder to outsource.

From what I read, American PMCs do function like body guards and get sent to places like Iraq and protect VIPs that aren't too important for military escort. Might sound boring but doesn't sound as dangerous. Don't PMCs also do security services around the outside perimeter of a military base? Apparently Area 51 has private contractors that do security services outside the base's perimeter.

I live on the top of a hill that itself exists on a hill which is also on a mound. Moundception. Such is "the Ozarks". The ride to the pub is entirely downhill and lies about a mile (that's "2 km" for Eurasians) away at the bottom. I literally cannot make it back home sober my puny stick legs would quit. Only with the power of ethanol and anaerobic respiration is it possible for me to surmount the...mount. Truly the most vicious of circles.

You're American? I thought you were European tbh

Also, good luck finding Theodosiya flag on the semi state owned PMC. Semi, because owned by few retired generals, and about 40% state owned. 60% split equally between 6 generals, from PVO, VVS, SA, VMF, RVSN and KGB. Also, mostly using copies US and German equipment, with few Russian sprinkled in.

I don't think PMCs would be regarded as "semi state-owned" if they were founded by retired generals. Instead, those PMCs would still be private. A PMC would probably be regarded as "semi state-owned" if they were under limited control of the government, probably an area where Wagner Group would be if they are indeed under the Russian Ministry of Defense.

[Theodosiya]

Technically, by the virtue of being the majority share owner, it is. And it's under joint MoFR and MoD.

[Zhouran]

Technically, by the virtue of being the majority share owner, it is. And it's under joint MoFR and MoD.

Government agencies aren't share owners, they're state bureaucracies and not corporate bureaucracies. For you PMCs to be semi state-owned, they would need to be under some sort of limited government control or influence, like Wagner Group for example. Retired generals can become businessmen, investors or share-holders, but any government agency can't have shares of a company in the stock exchange.

As for plausible deniability, even if your mercs don't carry the national flag, if they are found to be working in a PMC from your nation, then the finger to blame will still be pointed at your nation. The only thing is that since they're mercenaries and not uniformed soldiers, your government can deny being involved in some conflict or dirty shady stuff and say that your mercs were simply hired and paid by some "client" to do wet work. Those Russian mercs fighting in Ukraine, Putin can simply say "I didn't send those men to Ukraine, they were simply paid by clients to fight there", or those hundreds of Russian mercs that got mowed down by American spec-ops and air support in Khasham, well Putin can say "I didn't send those men to fight the SDF, they were simply paid by the Syrian government to fight the SDF in Khasham." No need for your mercenaries to use copies of US and German equipment.

This is a terrible idea, but instead of thinking of it as a state-owned 'P'MC, you could view it as "renting out" small portions of the regular armed forces to other nations for a fee. Essentially you're an "ally for hire", making other nations pay you to fight for them.
You would, in many people's eyes, be invading and attacking other nations every time you do this. Then again, I've never really understood why that isn't the case when a normal PMC does anything on foreign soil so maybe no one will care idk.

Being an "ally for hire" is pretty bad as it gives the impression that your nation is a pushover, plus your people would be pretty angry if you sent your soldiers to fight in some foreign war that your nation has no actual part in.

[The Akasha Colony]

From what I read, American PMCs do function like body guards and get sent to places like Iraq and protect VIPs that aren't too important for military escort. Might sound boring but doesn't sound as dangerous.

None of the people they protect are generally high priority targets.

Don't PMCs also do security services around the outside perimeter of a military base? Apparently Area 51 has private contractors that do security services outside the base's perimeter.

This literally just means checking IDs and looking vaguely menacing to tourists who think it might be funny to drive by Area 51. It's only slightly better than the stuff you'd see your local mall's Securitas contractors doing.

I don't think PMCs would be regarded as "semi state-owned" if they were founded by retired generals. Instead, those PMCs would still be private. A PMC would probably be regarded as "semi state-owned" if they were under limited control of the government, probably an area where Wagner Group would be if they are indeed under the Russian Ministry of Defense.

It also wouldn't matter, because anyone with at least two brain cells can figure out that a group owned by a cadre of retired general officers and with a large government stake should be considered a de facto arm of the state. The Iranian Revolutionary Guards operate a vast network of businesses in a similar manner but haven't managed to fool anyone.

[Theodosiya]

Alright. So how do I turn it to Wagner Mk 2?

[Questers]

Holo could drink you under the table and throw the table on top of you. She could drink me under the table. She could probably drink "Questers" under the table. Truly a master of the "functional alcoholism". Best waifu. Best pup.

I mostly quit drinking.

You may take the mantle of nsmil drunk shitposter. The job requires incessant attacks on Leppy 2, technicals, and other things tho.

[Austrasien]

Alright. So how do I turn it to Wagner Mk 2?

Mercenaries as a concept have no legitimacy these days. Nobody takes seriously the idea that they are genuine private actors and generally they are not; Wagner group is certainly just one more instrument of Russian foreign policy.

[Gallia-]

Holo could drink you under the table and throw the table on top of you. She could drink me under the table. She could probably drink "Questers" under the table. Truly a master of the "functional alcoholism". Best waifu. Best pup.

I mostly quit drinking.

You may take the mantle of nsmil drunk shitposter. The job requires incessant attacks on Leppy 2, technicals, and other things tho.

I am pro Leopard 2-chan and pro Land Rovers/truck divisions/Humvees so...

R I P
I
P

;~;

[Prosorusiya]

Well, at least it ain't Robotech.

???????????

I once made the mistake of meeting the “creator” of Robotech at a con. Aside from the fact that he didn’t really do anything other than stich together several series which where never meant to be related, he is also a massive pompous douche.

He spent the entirety of the con promoting how much of a genius he was for “creating” a “gateway anime” that got so many people involved in the fandom (never mind there are other works that also did that far earlier than Robotech ever did, Akira for one), and bemoaning both the lack of “gateway” animes and the reduction of DVD sales (this was a few years back before everyone was streaming things, and actually paying for online content. For instance, when Funimation still posted entire series for free on YouTube, which is how I watched Spice & Wolf). All of which would have been forgivable, if he actually had a firm concept of what he would consider a “gateway” series that could hack it in the mainstream would be, beyond his own work.

I had the misfortune of asking him a question about wether he felt differing social mores, like for instance nudity taboos, between Japan and the US made adaptation of anime for a mainstream audience harder. He proceeded to give a Nonanswer in which he blathered on about the dubbing process, which was about the point I realized he wasn’t totally full of it.

I have nothing against the various component series themselves as works of art, but I have nothing but contempt for the franchise as a whole. Again, just my opinion though, no disrespect if you are fan of it personally.

[Gallia-]

how much of a genius he was for “creating” a “gateway anime” that got so many people involved in the fandom

Without Robotech, "anime" in the United States would remain a niche genre confined to weird corners of video rental shops and weaboos. It was the first anime in the U.S. to really catch on and become popular and changed "anime" from "Japanimation"/"funny furriner things" to "mainstream". Denying that is a bit delusional since it assumes that people would be willing to accept the vast differences that a more simple, straightforward dubbing or subbing would involve. Given that anime, broadly, is still a "funny furriner thing" to most people over the age of 25 or so, we can say that Robotech more or less altered American perception of what "Japanimation" really was. By altering Japanimation directly to appeal to American audiences.

Without Robotech you would be stuck with M.D. Geist. Also complaining about stitching together plots is the height of snobbery. You might as well call Ted Woolsey or Azumanga Daioh's dubbing silly.

It's a bit like complaining that the "American Godzilla" is "pro-nuclear weapons" and "ignores the original substance of the kaiju genre as being a metaphor for the atomic bomb" when it's 1) still a really good kaiju film; 2) the United States would not accept a film that is "anti-atomic bombing" and "eco-pacifist" because it does not have the same historical experience of Japan that would make those palatable to American audiences. Americans like films that are pro-atomic bombs and anti-eco-pacifism because the formative American experience has been that both nuclear weapons and thousand-bomber air raids bring about good things, i.e. "exporting the revolution". That hasn't changed even since Vietnam and especially not in Iraq or Afghanistan, but neither Vietnam nor Iraq were lost because the U.S. used too many bombs. They were lost because the U.S. simply wasn't aggressive enough in the former case nor collaborative enough in the latter case. You still can't deny that, despite turning a lot of the original kaiju tropes on their heads, the American Godzilla is a good film.

But Godzilla (2014) would not have been made without Godzilla (1998). Partially because Godzilla (1998) was so bad and Godzilla (2014) was an attempt at a repudiation of it, and partially because Godzilla went from being a funny costume children's show through the 1980s to something Big in the 1990s that Even Adults Can Enjoy. The same is true for Robotech bringing anime further into the mainstream, since it was the first truly syndicated Japanimation in America. So without Mr. Macek you have to scour obscure video stores for their "Japanimation" section and get such "gems" as "Wicked City", "Genocyber", and "M.D. Geist" because no one ever bothered to really bring the genre to mass attention. So anime is roughly in the 2010s where it was in the 1990s in the U.S., with little hope of progressing.

In that sense it was a "gateway" and it started the ball rolling, so to speak, at its earliest. It exposed a lot of people in the 80s and 90s to "anime" and opened them up to something better. Without Mr. Macek's work you end up being resigned to importing from Japan. Alternatively, you get something like Legend of Galactic Heroes getting the Macross Treatment instead, and since LoGH is the only good "space anime" it is much better for it.

What you're basically doing is bitching about why the Model T needs a crank-start and has a manual transmission when you should realize that these things require incremental buildups and you're lucky that they succeed at all.

Mr. Macek could have easily not done it and we would end up with Robotech-esque cutting/splicing of another popular anime like LoGH instead. It was a product of the time and you cannot fault him for that because you're projecting modern values onto the 1980s. The worst thing you can really say about Mr. Macek is that he had the balls to bring anime in the United States and he succeeded in doing this in a way that cemented its foothold in American popular culture for a whole generation of young people who are now in their 20s and bitching about that same show on the Internet. Which they're able to do at all because of its very existence. Otherwise those same people would probably scoff at the idea of "Japanimation" like pretty much every did before Robotech.

TBH you need to check your temporal-moral privilege. "Robotech being bad," aside from Robotech not being objectively "bad" since that is a subjective position, was not "Mr. Macek's fault" at all. Rather it is what happens you strain anime through the cultural filter of a United States gripped by fear of the then very real Japanese economic warfare, a very forward thinking syndication group willing to take the leap and "bring sushi to TV", and the need to fit syndication (remember, the 1980s was pre-arc plots and pro-bottle episodes!) constraints and cultural biases of American audiences.

The biggest reason Robotech is Robotech is because American television was ruled by syndication kings who liked bottle episodes because it let them show series out of order. That's it.

What the hell do you expect Mr. Macek to do otherwise? He's not Chris Carter. He had neither the political nor economic capital to actually change or revolutionize TV and American syndicates wouldn't accept it for "cartoons" anyway.

What he did was show that "cartoons" would be fairly popular and exposed a large audience of Americans to anime by bringing it to syndication. These Americans are now young adults in 2018, who can't really connect the dots between things like "arcless plots" that didn't radically change until the late nineties and early oughties and Robotech's cutting up and massive editing needed to bring it in line with the TV and cultural standards of Reagan's America. This is important whether you recognize it or not because without Mr. Macek you would need to butcher another anime to do the same thing. Ignoring the greater cultural contexts of Mr. Macek's accomplishment is the absolute height of pettiness and the most unhelpful reduction, since anime didn't happen in a vacuum.

tl;dr Macross died for our sins and we should give thanks every day to Mr. Macek. The Longinus of anime. He stuck his pen into the script of Macross and made the ink run, but anime was already DOA for crimes against America.

e11: Also I never finished Robotech because I don't like Giant Mecha anime. If it were about tanks, self-propelled howitzers, ATGW, and tactical fighter-bombers fighting and killing a billion giant mecha effortlessly I'd watch it.

[Prosorusiya]

Have you met him? He’s a pompous, self important ass who could not even answer an intelligent question properly. He spent an entire talk, about the then current state of the anime industry, blathering about how great Robotech (a series for which he really isn’t creatively responsible for) was instead of actually addressing the subject at hand. Too long, didn’t read indeed.

Robotech is not even close to being the first, or most important “gateway” series out there. A plethora of series came before, and after it, and without them the series would have never been exported in the first place. Prime time, general audience anime started with AstroBoy and Gigantor, for pittys sake, and tons of other influential series like Speed Racer, Starblazers, Voltron ect. that introduced American TV audiences to anime and created a demand such that Robotech actually had a chance of getting of adapted at all. Robotech is but a small part of the long list of popular anime series that introduced Americans to the genre.

I’m not arguing that Robotech was not influential in its own right, but it’s “creator” overstates it’s importance massively. Sailor Moon, for example, has had a much larger impact on popular culture overall and Pokémon is not only the most popular but best recognized anime in the world. Whereas I didn’t even know it existed prior to my unfortunate encounter. Some “gateway” anime, it really dosen’t seem to have made much of an impact outside of those in the target demo that saw it first run, and they are a very small proportion of the anime viewing mainstream audience indeed. Not all anime fans in the mainstream audience are heterosexual white males who were preteens in the 1980s. Check that privilege, bro.

Look, what I’m saying is that I have nothing against the work of art itself (I’ve never partaken for obvious reasons), but it’s “creator” is such a pompous ass that I can’t bring myself to watch the thing, and that to me is a “bad” anime if there ever was one. Your franchise has to be really bad if it inspires those who were otherwise neutral on it to actively avoid the thing.

Now speaking artistically? I’ve seen much worse series, Jorgamund amoung them, and frankly I don’t think much of Eva either.

[Theodosiya]

Why do people like anime? It distracts from more important things...

[Husseinarti]

Holo could drink you under the table and throw the table on top of you. She could drink me under the table. She could probably drink "Questers" under the table. Truly a master of the "functional alcoholism". Best waifu. Best pup.

I mostly quit drinking.

You may take the mantle of nsmil drunk shitposter. The job requires incessant attacks on Leppy 2, technicals, and other things tho.

leo 2 is kinda cool

;-;

Why do people like anime? It distracts from more important things...

"more important things" is totally relative