[DRAFT] Liberate The Internationale

[Impaled Nazarene]

Who did Marx advocate a genocide of? Please enlighten me, I must have missed that part of his works.

Somewhere, at least according to Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Kim Il-Sung, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, Ho Chi Minh, and just about every other communist leader. You all seem to be intent on defending these lovely human beings, denying their atrocities, and then seeking to recreate them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_kill ... st_regimes

100,000,000 killed under the name of that "fiery red peace" that TRF so boldly advocated for.

Do actually try please. This is a debate, and debates require sources.

[United Massachusetts]

Somewhere, at least according to Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Kim Il-Sung, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, Ho Chi Minh, and just about every other communist leader. You all seem to be intent on defending these lovely human beings, denying their atrocities, and then seeking to recreate them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_kill ... st_regimes

100,000,000 killed under the name of that "fiery red peace" that TRF so boldly advocated for.

If you're trying to earn a prize for the largest strawman ever built, congratulations.

Now, if you're willing to debate what I'm actually saying, rather than this fantasy you have of me, please answer my question. You said that communism is fundamentally hateful. Where do Marx, or any of the early communist theorists, espouse hateful, genocidal views?

I'll wait.

Somewhere, at least according to Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Kim Il-Sung, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, Ho Chi Minh, and just about every other communist leader. You all seem to be intent on defending these lovely human beings, denying their atrocities, and then seeking to recreate them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_kill ... st_regimes

100,000,000 killed under the name of that "fiery red peace" that TRF so boldly advocated for.

Do actually try please. This is a debate, and debates require sources.

Let me clarify--Marx is not the only communist that matters here. Just as capitalism is not solely shaped off Adam Smith or fascism solely off Mussolini, or democracy solely based off Solon, communism is also, as an ideology, built by those who practice it. Those who practice it (ie. regimes adopting a communist model), have been overwhelmingly horrendous. Says something about the ideology, no?

You're the one asking loaded questions here.

[Impaled Nazarene]

If you're trying to earn a prize for the largest strawman ever built, congratulations.

Now, if you're willing to debate what I'm actually saying, rather than this fantasy you have of me, please answer my question. You said that communism is fundamentally hateful. Where do Marx, or any of the early communist theorists, espouse hateful, genocidal views?

I'll wait.

Do actually try please. This is a debate, and debates require sources.

Let me clarify--Marx is not the only communist that matters here. Just as capitalism is not solely shaped off Adam Smith or fascism solely off Mussolini, or democracy solely based off Solon, communism is also, as an ideology, built by those who practice it. Those who practice it (ie. regimes adopting a communist model), have been overwhelmingly horrendous. Says something about the ideology, no?

You're the one asking loaded questions here.

Loaded question. Ha. You say fundamentally that communism is a hateful ideology. Fundamentals imply the most prominent writers and founders. You go straight to Marx out of ignorance. Ignoring the other prominent early communist thinkers. In response I ask you to cite your weak claims which you fail to do. I recommend reading the Conquest of Bread by Kropotkin to see the other prominent line of communist thinking which while not anti-marxist owes little to Marx.

[Central Asian Republics]

As a matter of principle, I will vote against this proposal even if the current vote for the Liberation of KR passes. This entire circus act is ridiculous.

[Ratateague]

Tell me now--how many anti-theists and militant athiests exist in NSLeft or TI?

You see, communism is a fundamentally hateful ideology, particularly towards religious individuals. -snip- Communism is immensely hateful, even if such hatred is not vented towards the same groups as that of the fascists.

Furthermore, it is founded on a hateful ideology; KAISERREICH merely habors it.

-snip-
100,000,000 killed under the name of that "fiery red peace" that TRF so boldly advocated for.

This has quickly turned into a discussion for General. You are claiming that The Internationale is founded on hate, but accusing them of real world atrocities of which they clearly aren't responsible for, nor advocate. Where within the extent of NationStates do you get this idea? Where are you getting the impression that The Internationale as a whole are rabid antitheists? That hasn't been my impression at all in my conversations with them.

OOC: With that said, we should try to not let this become a debate fit for General.

Let me clarify--Marx is not the only communist that matters here. Just as capitalism is not solely shaped off Adam Smith or fascism solely off Mussolini, or democracy solely based off Solon, communism is also, as an ideology, built by those who practice it. Those who practice it (ie. regimes adopting a communist model), have been overwhelmingly horrendous. Says something about the ideology, no?

You're the one asking loaded questions here.

Before beginning this line of loaded accusations, you knew it was off-topic, so why bring it up in the first place when it clearly doesn't reflect how they represent themselves in the game? And why continue?

[Faetiria]

Communism is also, as an ideology, built by those who practice it. Those who practice it (ie. regimes adopting a communist model), have been overwhelmingly horrendous. Says something about the ideology, no?

Let us not dare ask, then, of the crimes committed under capitalism.

[Kavagrad]

If you're trying to earn a prize for the largest strawman ever built, congratulations.

Now, if you're willing to debate what I'm actually saying, rather than this fantasy you have of me, please answer my question. You said that communism is fundamentally hateful. Where do Marx, or any of the early communist theorists, espouse hateful, genocidal views?

I'll wait.

Let me clarify--Marx is not the only communist that matters here. Just as capitalism is not solely shaped off Adam Smith or fascism solely off Mussolini, or democracy solely based off Solon, communism is also, as an ideology, built by those who practice it. Those who practice it (ie. regimes adopting a communist model), have been overwhelmingly horrendous. Says something about the ideology, no?

You're the one asking loaded questions here.

If implementation is representative of fundamental principles (which I can't stress enough, is what you claimed was hateful in the case of communism), then every political or religious belief ever held is, according to your logic, the same as defending all the atrocities committed in the implementation of said beliefs. Every Christian is therefore either a denier or a proponent of all genocides and massacres committed in the spread of Christianity, according to the way you've chosen to frame this. Do you not see where your logic leads?

[United Massachusetts]

@Ratateague: I bring it up because most of my interactions with them (in particular, Misley), have seen them defending Stalin and supporting his actions, including the racially-motivated Holodomor. I also saw TRF joyously raise the flag of IRL North Korea over a roleplay region while praising the Kim regime. That appears to me to be condoning and supporting the atrocities of communist regimes.

@Impaled Nazarene: I didn't bring up Marx. Though perhaps a good place to start would be his calling for the elimination of morals and religion through the "dictatorship of the proletariat."

And while we're at it, we ought to consult our friend Vlad:

“all worship of a divinity is a necrophilia." --Lenin
"“any religious idea, any idea of any God at all, any flirtation even with a God is the most inexpressible foulness … the most dangerous foulness, the most shameful ‘infection.’” --Also Lenin

Anyways, I apologize for helping turn this into a General debate. Let's all agree to reign it in.

[United Massachusetts]

Let me clarify--Marx is not the only communist that matters here. Just as capitalism is not solely shaped off Adam Smith or fascism solely off Mussolini, or democracy solely based off Solon, communism is also, as an ideology, built by those who practice it. Those who practice it (ie. regimes adopting a communist model), have been overwhelmingly horrendous. Says something about the ideology, no?

You're the one asking loaded questions here.

If implementation is representative of fundamental principles (which I can't stress enough, is what you claimed was hateful in the case of communism), then every political or religious belief ever held is, according to your logic, the same as defending all the atrocities committed in the implementation of said beliefs. Every Christian is therefore either a denier or a proponent of all genocides and massacres committed in the spread of Christianity, according to the way you've chosen to frame this. Do you not see where your logic leads?

The point is that I've spoken with folks in TI who have defended the Holodomor. It's more like if I were to defend the Spanish Inquisition in a debate.

[Kavagrad]

If implementation is representative of fundamental principles (which I can't stress enough, is what you claimed was hateful in the case of communism), then every political or religious belief ever held is, according to your logic, the same as defending all the atrocities committed in the implementation of said beliefs. Every Christian is therefore either a denier or a proponent of all genocides and massacres committed in the spread of Christianity, according to the way you've chosen to frame this. Do you not see where your logic leads?

The point is that I've spoken with folks in TI who have defended the Holodomor. It's more like if I were to defend the Spanish Inquisition in a debate.

So do you believe that communism in fundamentally hateful in its principles? Move the goalposts all you want, they're going to keep getting pulled back.

[United Massachusetts]

The point is that I've spoken with folks in TI who have defended the Holodomor. It's more like if I were to defend the Spanish Inquisition in a debate.

So do you believe that communism in fundamentally hateful in its principles? Move the goalposts all you want, they're going to keep getting pulled back.

Not necessarily--I will acknowledge that there are non-hateful forms of communism. But by far the most prevalent, and one with many practicioners in TI, is one that cannot be separated from hatred and glorifies the persecution of the religious.

[Kavagrad]

So do you believe that communism in fundamentally hateful in its principles? Move the goalposts all you want, they're going to keep getting pulled back.

Not necessarily--I will acknowledge that there are non-hateful forms of communism. But by far the most prevalent, and one with many practicioners in TI, is one that cannot be separated from hatred and glorifies the persecution of the religious.

I would argue that the most prevalent form of communism, at least in terms of held ideology, is anarcho-communism, but I don't have the evidence for that, so I'll leave it.

[Ratateague]

@Ratateague: I bring it up because most of my interactions with them (in particular, Misley), have seen them defending Stalin and supporting his actions, including the racially-motivated Holodomor. I also saw TRF joyously raise the flag of IRL North Korea over a roleplay region while praising the Kim regime. That appears to me to be condoning and supporting the atrocities of communist regimes.

Well, I can't speak to your interactions with them, as I haven't personally seen those discussions. Yet with my regular interactions with them, I don't witness what you have described. Yes, it's regrettable that TRF raised a flag which is hosted on NationStates, but TRF is not The Internationale.

Not necessarily--I will acknowledge that there are non-hateful forms of communism. But by far the most prevalent, and one with many practicioners in TI, is one that cannot be separated from hatred and glorifies the persecution of the religious.

Which one is that? There is tremendous diversity of ideology and political opinion within The Internationale.

[United Massachusetts]

Not necessarily--I will acknowledge that there are non-hateful forms of communism. But by far the most prevalent, and one with many practicioners in TI, is one that cannot be separated from hatred and glorifies the persecution of the religious.

I would argue that the most prevalent form of communism, at least in terms of held ideology, is anarcho-communism, but I don't have the evidence for that, so I'll leave it.

So can we agree to drop this General-style argument for awhile and return to the topic?

[United Massachusetts]

Not necessarily--I will acknowledge that there are non-hateful forms of communism. But by far the most prevalent, and one with many practicioners in TI, is one that cannot be separated from hatred and glorifies the persecution of the religious.

Which one is that? There is tremendous diversity of ideology and political opinion within The Internationale.

Anti-revisionism/Stalinism is, I'd argue, the most prevalent form of communism on Earth, and one that has at least some support in TI, significantly more than the amount of Nazism in KR.

[Cedoria]

If you're trying to earn a prize for the largest strawman ever built, congratulations.

Now, if you're willing to debate what I'm actually saying, rather than this fantasy you have of me, please answer my question. You said that communism is fundamentally hateful. Where do Marx, or any of the early communist theorists, espouse hateful, genocidal views?

I'll wait.

Do actually try please. This is a debate, and debates require sources.

Let me clarify--Marx is not the only communist that matters here. Just as capitalism is not solely shaped off Adam Smith or fascism solely off Mussolini, or democracy solely based off Solon, communism is also, as an ideology, built by those who practice it. Those who practice it (ie. regimes adopting a communist model), have been overwhelmingly horrendous. Says something about the ideology, no?

You're the one asking loaded questions here.

I'm just gonna quote George Orwell (you know, the one every edgy high school idiot thinks is the anti-communist idol), in "Road to Wigan Pier".

"Please notice that I am arguing for Socialism, not against it. […] The job of the thinking person, therefore, is not to reject Socialism but to make up his mind to humanize it…For the moment, the only possible course of any decent person, however much of a Tory or an anarchist by temperament, is to work for the establishment of Socialism. Nothing else can save us from the misery of the present or the nightmare of the future […] Indeed, from one point of view, Socialism is such elementary common sense that I am sometimes amazed it has not established itself already. The world is a raft sailing through space with, potentially, plenty of provisions for everybody; the idea that we must all co-operate and see to it that everyone does his fair share of the work and gets his fair share of the provisions, seems so blatantly obvious that one would say that nobody could possibly fail to accept it unless he had some corrupt motive for clinging to the present system. […] To recoil from Socialism because so many socialists are inferior people is as absurd as refusing to travel by train because you dislike the ticket-collector’s face."
(emphasis mine)
Orwell literally points here out that anybody who evaluates socialist merits by the actions or personal failings of individual socialists is a moron. Try again

[United Massachusetts]

I'd argue that the failings of socialism would have been corrected by now with the sheer number of communist regimes that have existed. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I don't think communism can be separated from the horrors of past regimes.

[Cedoria]

@Ratateague: I bring it up because most of my interactions with them (in particular, Misley), have seen them defending Stalin and supporting his actions, including the racially-motivated Holodomor. I also saw TRF joyously raise the flag of IRL North Korea over a roleplay region while praising the Kim regime. That appears to me to be condoning and supporting the atrocities of communist regimes.

@Impaled Nazarene: I didn't bring up Marx. Though perhaps a good place to start would be his calling for the elimination of morals and religion through the "dictatorship of the proletariat."

And while we're at it, we ought to consult our friend Vlad:

“all worship of a divinity is a necrophilia." --Lenin
"“any religious idea, any idea of any God at all, any flirtation even with a God is the most inexpressible foulness … the most dangerous foulness, the most shameful ‘infection.’” --Also Lenin

Anyways, I apologize for helping turn this into a General debate. Let's all agree to reign it in.

1: Evidence. Also TRF comprises more than just the Internationale. My own region among them. Given how often I've been responsible for writing articles denouncing Stalinism and the USSR in the regional publication, are you going to call me a Stalinist as well?

2: That's not what Dictatorship of the Proletariat means. Even a complete Non-Marxist Socialist like me is well aware of the fact, which I am cleverly able to deduce by being able to read.

3: Again, see my quote from Orwell above. The idea that anybody in TI just channels the thoughts of a guy dead for nearly a century is utterly ludicrous.

[Cedoria]

I'd argue that the failings of socialism would have been corrected by now with the sheer number of communist regimes that have existed. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I don't think communism can be separated from the horrors of past regimes.

Whatever. You can argue what you wish, nobody said you are obligated to be right.

[Kavagrad]

I'd argue that the failings of socialism would have been corrected by now with the sheer number of communist regimes that have existed. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I don't think communism can be separated from the horrors of past regimes.

Bad news for Catholics, then.

[The New Commonwealth of Virginia]

To be honest, I'm waiting for a "Liberate the Black Hawks".

[Wrapper]

So can we agree to drop this General-style argument for awhile and return to the topic?

That would be a wonderful idea. Everyone. Back on topic.

[Lord Dominator]

To be honest, I'm waiting for a "Liberate the Black Hawks".

That would be both amusing, and utterly useless.

[Cedoria]

To be honest, I'm waiting for a "Liberate the Black Hawks".

That would be both amusing, and utterly useless.

Just like this proposal.

[Lord Dominator]

That would be both amusing, and utterly useless.

Just like this proposal.

Most likely, yes