[DRAFT] Liberate The Internationale

[Audioslavia]

You people are despicable.

This is an unofficial warning for flaming. Please remember that it's okay to attack the post, but not the users involved.

[Lord Dominator]

To tl;dr what I previously West Leas, democracy on NS is a farce. It servers no inherent value and in no way does it create more stability.

[Ratateague]

Frankly, I'm opposed to Liberate KAISERREICH. This is primarily designed to make a point--this whole liberate to destroy thing is a slippery slope.

Am I to understand this is a protest proposal, or are you fully committed to passing this should the other one reach quorum or pass?

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I'm against this proposal, because I believe that liberate to destroy proposals are a twisting of game mechanics for an improper purpose.
I'm also consistent.

[United Massachusetts]

Frankly, I'm opposed to Liberate KAISERREICH. This is primarily designed to make a point--this whole liberate to destroy thing is a slippery slope.

Am I to understand this is a protest proposal, or are you fully committed to passing this should the other one reach quorum or pass?

both

[Norwegian Wood]

Full support. The players The Internationale has bred and the subculture present there is alarming to my sense of justice and of what is right in a community. The shortcomings of communists should not be overlooked simply because they fight against fascists.

[West Leas Oros]

Full support. The players The Internationale has bred and the subculture present there is alarming to my sense of justice and of what is right in a community. The shortcomings of communists should not be overlooked simply because they fight against fascists.

This quote is the best! Can I use it?

[Norwegian Wood]

Full support. The players The Internationale has bred and the subculture present there is alarming to my sense of justice and of what is right in a community. The shortcomings of communists should not be overlooked simply because they fight against fascists.

This quote is the best! Can I use it?

Feel free. I enjoy being quoted.

[The Stalker]

lol this is pretty funny, but would never pass.

Opposed.

[Dobrobyt]

As I stated with the KAISERREICH proposal, please cite your claims, then I may support.

[Impaled Nazarene]

Unsurprised that the present regime, whilst claiming to be democratic, has forcibly exiled countless individuals merely for raising opposition to communist rule, considering that the supression of free speech is a vital component of the communist ideology to which The Internationale's leadership subscribes,

Oh nooo a leftist discussion region kicking out people who aren't leftists or espouse bigotry that is against the regional rules. What a crime. Even McCarthy would call this proposal a stretch.

Also remind me on what page of the Communist Manifesto or Conquest of Bread does it say kill all the jewish, disabled, and people of color?

[Burninati0n]

Unsurprised that the present regime, whilst claiming to be democratic, has forcibly exiled countless individuals merely for raising opposition to communist rule, considering that the supression of free speech is a vital component of the communist ideology to which The Internationale's leadership subscribes,

Oh nooo a leftist discussion region kicking out people who aren't leftists or espouse bigotry that is against the regional rules. What a crime. Even McCarthy would call this proposal a stretch.

Also remind me on what page of the Communist Manifesto or Conquest of Bread does it say kill all the jewish, disabled, and people of color?

I must say, seeing the (not-apparently-justified) hatred of TI and what we stand for from nations I've never heard of has been pretty fun/funny. I was unaware of our evident fame!

I do appreciate the quoted post, though -- because sometimes reading things that make sense is good, too. And in this, I believe, we have a winner.

TI is explicitly a region for leftists and has a code of conduct that we enforce. We will not apologize for either enforcing a code of conduct or creating a netspace for leftists. I am proud of the community that we have created, bright spots, blemishes, and warts included.

Also, I should point out that really, our class-traitorous friend United Massachusetts ought really to be proposing a "liberate" for every member region of the NSLeft, since the meat of the proposal is aimed at activities of the Fleet, which is the military arm of the entire NSLeft, not TI.

The only other comment I should make is this:

Annoyed that the Internationale retains a positive global image by masquerading as the leading force of anti-fascism across these nation-states, despite espousing an ideology that is not far removed from fascism in nature,

I am uncertain if this is an expression of UM's failure to comprehend fascism as an ideology or lack of knowledge about the ideology and community of TI. Fascism and Communism are similar only in that they both represent ideological movements that are alternatives to the liberal democratic status quo of the West. The actual contents of those alternatives, however, could not be more diametrically opposed. I can assure you that TI "espouses" none of the hatred-bred-in-fear of immigrants or minorities that has led fascism as a historical movement to commit attempted genocide, war crimes, and countless other crimes against humanity.

[RiderSyl]

I'm gonna call BS on the idea that this is supposed to be an example of a proposal written out of spite
It's just a proposal written out of spite

Against.

[Ratateague]

Also, I should point out that really, our class-traitorous friend United Massachusetts ought really to be proposing a "liberate" for every member region of the NSLeft, since the meat of the proposal is aimed at activities of the Fleet, which is the military arm of the entire NSLeft, not TI.

I acknowledge the point you are trying to make about unjustly conflating left-wing regions with voluntary Red Fleet members from those regions, yet I'd just like to clarify the content of the NSLeft Solidarity Pact, so no one gets the wrong idea.

1. All member regions shall maintain peace with one another and shall resolve conflicts with other member regions through diplomacy.

2. Regional militaries and interregional military organizations associated with the NSLeft shall provide for the defense of member regions.

3. The NSLeft shall be a voluntary member of Antifa.

Nowhere does it mention that member nations are mandated to join militaries, or that if they do, that it must be The Red Fleet, Antifa, etc. Only that existing regional or interregional militaries come to the defense of other regions should a situation arise. AFAIK, one doesn't even have to be a nation in NSLeft member regions to join The Red Fleet or Antifa, as long as they are vetted.

Anyway, this is the ongoing confusion that pervades the NS community, despite attempts at distinction. It would be a gross miscarriage of justice to liberate the wrong region because of a case of mistaken identity. Especially a region of over 500 members in which an estimated <5% participate in The Red Fleet.

[Wrapper]

Am I to understand this is a protest proposal, or are you fully committed to passing this should the other one reach quorum or pass?

both

Ah So it is tit-for-tat. Good to know.

[Kavagrad]

Also, I should point out that really, our class-traitorous friend United Massachusetts ought really to be proposing a "liberate" for every member region of the NSLeft, since the meat of the proposal is aimed at activities of the Fleet, which is the military arm of the entire NSLeft, not TI.

I acknowledge the point you are trying to make about unjustly conflating left-wing regions with voluntary Red Fleet members from those regions, yet I'd just like to clarify the content of the NSLeft Solidarity Pact, so no one gets the wrong idea.

1. All member regions shall maintain peace with one another and shall resolve conflicts with other member regions through diplomacy.

2. Regional militaries and interregional military organizations associated with the NSLeft shall provide for the defense of member regions.

3. The NSLeft shall be a voluntary member of Antifa.

Nowhere does it mention that member nations are mandated to join militaries, or that if they do, that it must be The Red Fleet, Antifa, etc. Only that existing regional or interregional militaries come to the defense of other regions should a situation arise. AFAIK, one doesn't even have to be a nation in NSLeft member regions to join The Red Fleet or Antifa, as long as they are vetted.

Anyway, this is the ongoing confusion that pervades the NS community, despite attempts at distinction. It would be a gross miscarriage of justice to liberate the wrong region because of a case of mistaken identity. Especially a region of over 500 members in which an estimated <5% participate in The Red Fleet.

As a member of an NSLeft region with no military of our own and little participation (all of which is carried out on a personal basis) in TRF or any associated military forces, I definitely approve this message.

[Burninati0n]

@Ratateague and @Kavagrad bring up a valid complaint about what I said. (Sadly. I was hoping I could just drop the mic and not have to come back )

Consider my point as Ratateague more eloquently rephrased it -- thank you for that service, Товарищ.

[United Massachusetts]

The only other comment I should make is this:

Annoyed that the Internationale retains a positive global image by masquerading as the leading force of anti-fascism across these nation-states, despite espousing an ideology that is not far removed from fascism in nature,

I am uncertain if this is an expression of UM's failure to comprehend fascism as an ideology or lack of knowledge about the ideology and community of TI. Fascism and Communism are similar only in that they both represent ideological movements that are alternatives to the liberal democratic status quo of the West. The actual contents of those alternatives, however, could not be more diametrically opposed. I can assure you that TI "espouses" none of the hatred-bred-in-fear of immigrants or minorities that has led fascism as a historical movement to commit attempted genocide, war crimes, and countless other crimes against humanity.

Tell me now--how many anti-theists and militant athiests exist in NSLeft or TI?

You see, communism is a fundamentally hateful ideology, particularly towards religious individuals. Consider in the persecution of faith in the Soviet Union, North Korea, Khmer Rouge, and the list goes on. Communism is immensely hateful, even if such hatred is not vented towards the same groups as that of the fascists.

both

Ah So it is tit-for-tat. Good to know.

Only partially so. Again, I've been going after TI and TRF for awhile

[United Massachusetts]

As for the choice to liberate TI, it's rather obvious--TI is the clear leader of the militant Left on NS (and home to all three Admirality Board members, I might add). Furthermore, it is founded on a hateful ideology; KAISERREICH merely habors it.

[Impaled Nazarene]

You see, communism is a fundamentally hateful ideology,

Fundamentally...
Evidence against that: Marx, Engels, Lenin, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Makhno we can go on.
Do cite the page number and passage in each one of their works where they call for the mass slaughter of the jewish, people of color, disabled people, and homosexuals.

[Kavagrad]

As for the choice to liberate TI, it's rather obvious--TI is the clear leader of the militant Left on NS (and home to all three Admirality Board members, I might add). Furthermore, it is founded on a hateful ideology; KAISERREICH merely habors it.

Who did Marx advocate a genocide of? Please enlighten me, I must have missed that part of his works.

[Lenlyvit]

Ah So it is tit-for-tat. Good to know.

Only partially so. Again, I've been going after TI and TRF for awhile

Even a partial tit-for-tat is still a tit-for-tat, and considered illegal under sight rules......

[United Massachusetts]

As for the choice to liberate TI, it's rather obvious--TI is the clear leader of the militant Left on NS (and home to all three Admirality Board members, I might add). Furthermore, it is founded on a hateful ideology; KAISERREICH merely habors it.

Who did Marx advocate a genocide of? Please enlighten me, I must have missed that part of his works.

Somewhere, at least according to Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Kim Il-Sung, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, Ho Chi Minh, and just about every other communist leader. You all seem to be intent on defending these lovely human beings, denying their atrocities, and then seeking to recreate them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_kill ... st_regimes

100,000,000 killed under the name of that "fiery red peace" that TRF so boldly advocated for.

OOC: With that said, we should try to not let this become a debate fit for General.

[United Massachusetts]

Only partially so. Again, I've been going after TI and TRF for awhile

Even a partial tit-for-tat is still a tit-for-tat, and considered illegal under sight rules......

Incorrect. In my defense, I refer to the rulebook:

Proposals which are solely 'tit-for-tat' proposals (ie Condemns Nation X for Condemning Nation Y) will be deleted. However, if they have other substance to them besides the 'tit-for-tat' argument, they are unlikely to be deleted:

[Kavagrad]

Who did Marx advocate a genocide of? Please enlighten me, I must have missed that part of his works.

Somewhere, at least according to Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Kim Il-Sung, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, Ho Chi Minh, and just about every other communist leader. You all seem to be intent on defending these lovely human beings, denying their atrocities, and then seeking to recreate them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_kill ... st_regimes

100,000,000 killed under the name of that "fiery red peace" that TRF so boldly advocated for.

If you're trying to earn a prize for the largest strawman ever built, congratulations.

Now, if you're willing to debate what I'm actually saying, rather than this fantasy you have of me, please answer my question. You said that communism is fundamentally hateful. Where do Marx, or any of the early communist theorists, espouse hateful, genocidal views?

I'll wait.