Anti Capitalist Discussion Thread I: Seize the toothbrushes!

[Ostroeuropa]

He's bringing his grudge against me from the LWTD here. He's vehemently against revolution as a valid manner of achieving socialism, he believes parliamentary methods are the only way to do it.

Because God forbid we try to fix things without murdering people.

Cek, comments on this?

As for violent revolution, possibly, however, i'd point this out.
Violent revolution requires organization, resources, etc. That means institutions, clubs, groups. That organizational structure should be pushed as far as it can go, as many resources as it can gather accumulated under it, right up until we hit the Kennedy situation.
"Those who don't allow peaceful change, ensure violent change."

When the system unfairly resists further capture of institutions, clubs, groups, resources, that is the time for violence to erupt.
If they never unfairly resist and engage with us as good faith actors, peaceful reform will be possible.

Your belief that violent revolt will be necessary is essentially a lack of faith in them, possibly justified. But it might not be necessary. That should be emphasized not only for ethical reasons, but for strategic ones.

[Dejanic]

Ah, I see.
Dejanic, note this as well.

I don't know the full context of this quote. But Capitalist states kill children daily; countless children in Yemen alone have been killed by US drone strikes under Obama and Trump, recent example.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 53121.html

Is your clearly personal grudge that exists from a completely unrelated thread relavent to this thread?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Ah, I see.
Dejanic, note this as well.

I don't know the full context of this quote. But Capitalist states kill children daily; countless children in Yemen alone have been killed by US drone strikes under Obama and Trump, recent example.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 53121.html

Is your clearly personal grudge that exists from a completely unrelated thread relavent to this thread?

She said that the French Revolutionaries were justified in killing the Dauphin (who was 10 at the time) because he was a "disgusting wretch" who belonged to "a degenerate family."

[Cekoviu]

Here's your evidence. Ailyria explicitly advocates for killing (or doing various other nasty things to) the bourgeoisie in a revolution in these posts. I would've quoted, but it would reset my location in the thread each time I used the quote button.
viewtopic.php?p=33519273#p33519273
viewtopic.php?p=33519361#p33519361

[Ostroeuropa]

In defense of forceful revolution, there are countless studies demonstrating that the ultrarich have abnormal ratios of psychopathy, sociopathy, and in general have below-normal-for-humans empathy, in my view resulting from their environment and their need to shut down parts of their brain related to ethical development in order to cope with their situation without immediately shoveling money at the poor and raising wages, the extreme guilt that would happen without self-inflicted brain damage might not be endurable. That may well mean that negotiation and peaceful reform is simply not possible, as the capacity for ethical thinking lies outside their abilities.

Casual drunk googling for the source.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ompassion/

Such a scenario however only justifies forcible institutionalization, though lethal force to defend self and others in the process of doing so is also justified, if proportionate.
The key point i'd wager is concluding that they are beyond reason, and force must be applied. Ask Aillyria if they support forceful institutionalization and i'd wager they might, begrudgingly or otherwise, say yes.

[Cekoviu]

Ah, I see.
Dejanic, note this as well.

I don't know the full context of this quote. But Capitalist states kill children daily; countless children in Yemen alone have been killed by US drone strikes under Obama and Trump, recent example.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 53121.html

Is your clearly personal grudge that exists from a completely unrelated thread relavent to this thread?

I don't have a personal grudge against Ailyria, I'm just saying that her idea of socialism is militant and murderous, contrary to what you wrote.

[Dejanic]

I don't know the full context of this quote. But Capitalist states kill children daily; countless children in Yemen alone have been killed by US drone strikes under Obama and Trump, recent example.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 53121.html

Is your clearly personal grudge that exists from a completely unrelated thread relavent to this thread?

She said that the French Revolutionaries were justified in killing the Dauphin (who was 10 at the time) because he was a "disgusting wretch" who belonged to "a degenerate family."

Can't say my heart weeps for the Dauphin.

But I love how an opinion Allyria stated on a completely unrelated revolution somehow proves that Socialist revolutionaries want to kill children which is what Cekoviu was basically implying.

[United Muscovite Nations]

She said that the French Revolutionaries were justified in killing the Dauphin (who was 10 at the time) because he was a "disgusting wretch" who belonged to "a degenerate family."

Can't say my heart weeps for the Dauphin.

But I love how an opinion Allyria stated on a completely unrelated revolution somehow proves that Socialist revolutionaries want to kill children which is what Cekoviu was basically implying.

He was a ten year old child who was brutally murdered by being locked in a room until he died from disease and being forced to testify against his parents in their trial.

I was commenting more on the issue of Allyria possibly being a sociopath.

[Ostroeuropa]

Can't say my heart weeps for the Dauphin.

But I love how an opinion Allyria stated on a completely unrelated revolution somehow proves that Socialist revolutionaries want to kill children which is what Cekoviu was basically implying.

He was a ten year old child who was brutally murdered by being locked in a room until he died from disease and being forced to testify against his parents in their trial.

I was commenting more on the issue of Allyria possibly being a sociopath.

We don't call people sociopaths for hating tribes that have pillaged and devestated homelands. The ultrarich are a detriment to the species. When fully aware of the extent of the atrocities and suffering they cause, it takes conscious effort to override the predator part of our brains and is not something that can be maintained 24/7.
She has advocated ethical treatment of others, and appears to merely be indulging in dehumanizing a foe that has caused the most suffering in human history. Hating the rich and wishing them to suffer is not evidence of sociopathy, provided one argues for ethical treatment of others. Moral failing perhaps, but not mental illness.

[Aillyria]

Can't say my heart weeps for the Dauphin.

But I love how an opinion Allyria stated on a completely unrelated revolution somehow proves that Socialist revolutionaries want to kill children which is what Cekoviu was basically implying.

He was a ten year old child who was brutally murdered by being locked in a room until he died from disease and being forced to testify against his parents in their trial.

I was commenting more on the issue of Allyria possibly being a sociopath.

Oh boy, here we go.

Actually, I would've at least given him the courtesy of dieing alongside his parents. I don't really fancy torture, tbh. But, yes I do generally see violence as the only effective method to overthrow an established ideological paradigm in society.

[Great Minarchistan]

There can be no hybridization between socialism and capitalism, they are mutually exclusive concepts. Socialism and Capitalism aren't on a spectrum, there's no "more or less" of either. A system is either one or the other, full stop.

Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, basically all of Europe and even the U.S... no hybrids you say? xP

Those are social democracies, and I wouldn't say so much about Switzerland since their welfare system is less generous than Europe's as a whole and apparently shrinking further. Socialism and capitalism are macroeconomic systems, while social democracies are capitalist countries with redistributive policies. Sorry but it's actually important to differ socialism (or democratic socialism as people have been calling for recently) and social democracy.

[Northern Davincia]

He was a ten year old child who was brutally murdered by being locked in a room until he died from disease and being forced to testify against his parents in their trial.

I was commenting more on the issue of Allyria possibly being a sociopath.

We don't call people sociopaths for hating tribes that have pillaged and devestated homelands. The ultrarich are a detriment to the species. When fully aware of the extent of the atrocities and suffering they cause, it takes conscious effort to override the predator part of our brains and is not something that can be maintained 24/7.
She has advocated ethical treatment of others, and appears to merely be indulging in dehumanizing a foe that has caused the most suffering in human history. Hating the rich and wishing them to suffer is not evidence of sociopathy, provided one argues for ethical treatment of others. Moral failing perhaps, but not mental illness.

The ultrarich aren't malevolent, stereotypical scrooges.

[United Muscovite Nations]

He was a ten year old child who was brutally murdered by being locked in a room until he died from disease and being forced to testify against his parents in their trial.

I was commenting more on the issue of Allyria possibly being a sociopath.

Oh boy, here we go.

Actually, I would've at least given him the courtesy of dieing alongside his parents. I don't really fancy torture, tbh. But, yes I do generally see violence as the only effective method to overthrow an established ideological paradigm in society.

Killing children =/= overthrowing an established ideological paradigm.

[The Christonian Imperium]

Capitalism > Fascism > Communism > Monarchism

[Ostroeuropa]

We don't call people sociopaths for hating tribes that have pillaged and devestated homelands. The ultrarich are a detriment to the species. When fully aware of the extent of the atrocities and suffering they cause, it takes conscious effort to override the predator part of our brains and is not something that can be maintained 24/7.
She has advocated ethical treatment of others, and appears to merely be indulging in dehumanizing a foe that has caused the most suffering in human history. Hating the rich and wishing them to suffer is not evidence of sociopathy, provided one argues for ethical treatment of others. Moral failing perhaps, but not mental illness.

The ultrarich aren't malevolent, stereotypical scrooges.

There are literal studies showing they are ethically impaired and lack the human standard levels of capacity for empathy. In terms of biology, they are deviant and should be considered abnormal and dangerous. You know bioshock and its stuff showing libertarianism turns us into mutated monsters?
...
Dude.
There's no need for ADAM.

Extreme disparity in terms of wealth does it all on its own. Their brains are less switched on than the rest of ours, parts are shut down.
A libertarian who pays his workers a fair wage in a society of libertarians doing the same wouldn't be like that.

But these ones?
They've been selected for, by selecting for psychopaths, sociopaths, and the ethically impaired.
They thrive in a system of corruption and government subsidy while preaching market liberal values, necessitating a capacity for duplicity, for lying, for unethical behavior and for corrupt morals.

It has selected the ethically deviant and subnormal, and placed them in a class.
The ultrarich are not successful libertarians.
They are successful corporatists who preach libertarianism as moral justification. There is a huge, huge difference

I invite you to consider the media and its attempts at portraying normal human morality, and the absurd cariacatures it comes up with.
This is because the message its owners seek to send is fake attempts at acting like a normal, functional human, and pretend the ruling class isn't ethically deficient.

[Rostavykhan]

He's bringing his grudge against me from the LWTD here. He's vehemently against revolution as a valid manner of achieving socialism, he believes parliamentary methods are the only way to do it.

To be fair, you did advocate the murder of children.

TBF I'd rather that and see a revolution succeed than let it lose momentum or be sidetracked by petty morality.

Besides, again, considering right-wingers I know who advocate for similar treatment to leftists, I don't really care to argue about who the real barbarians are. War is war.

[Aillyria]

Oh boy, here we go.

Actually, I would've at least given him the courtesy of dieing alongside his parents. I don't really fancy torture, tbh. But, yes I do generally see violence as the only effective method to overthrow an established ideological paradigm in society.

Killing children =/= overthrowing an established ideological paradigm.

It is if you don't want them seeking revenge for their dead parents later.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Killing children =/= overthrowing an established ideological paradigm.

It is if you don't want them seeking revenge for their dead parents later.

That alone can't justify it. Think about it, if you kill a mother and father, would you be justified in killing their child as self-defense?

[Aillyria]

It is if you don't want them seeking revenge for their dead parents later.

That alone can't justify it. Think about it, if you kill a mother and father, would you be justified in killing their child as self-defense?

It depends on why you killed the parents.

[Cekoviu]

Capitalism > Fascism > Communism > Monarchism

cool story bro

[United Muscovite Nations]

That alone can't justify it. Think about it, if you kill a mother and father, would you be justified in killing their child as self-defense?

It depends on why you killed the parents.

So, you would say that the possibility that someone could kill you decades later is a justifiable reason in self-defense?

[Ostroeuropa]

It depends on why you killed the parents.

So, you would say that the possibility that someone could kill you decades later is a justifiable reason in self-defense?

"Start a second civil war, killing millions" > "Kill me."

I oppose the slaugther of the romanov children, but at least frame it properly.

It needs to be framed in the same way as the "Time travel to kill Hitler as a babby" thing, but that immediately shifts it into controversial with no real right answer, which is why you don't want to do it.

[United Muscovite Nations]

So, you would say that the possibility that someone could kill you decades later is a justifiable reason in self-defense?

"Start a second civil war, killing millions" > "Kill me."

I oppose the slaugther of the romanov children, but at least frame it properly.

It needs to be framed in the same way as the "Time travel to kill Hitler as a babby" thing, but that immediately shifts it into controversial with no real right answer, which is why you don't want to do it.

You don't know that they'll start a second civil war though. Besides, for one thing, the Romanov children wouldn't have even been eligible to rule. After Nicholas' abdication on behalf of Alexei, they were all at the end of the line of succession.

[Great Minarchistan]

The ultrarich are a detriment to the species.

I too hate Elon Musk, with his malevolent plans to settle colonies space abroad, speed up transportation, cheapen up space travel, increase solar power generation at cheap costs while producing electric cars which don't use fossil fuels after all. The list doesn't stop here, you also have Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Walton brothers, Jorge Lemann and Jeff Bezos (those are the ones I can remember off the top of my head that have been doing significant contributions to the population, be it through technology or philantrophy).

[Ostroeuropa]

"Start a second civil war, killing millions" > "Kill me."

I oppose the slaugther of the romanov children, but at least frame it properly.

It needs to be framed in the same way as the "Time travel to kill Hitler as a babby" thing, but that immediately shifts it into controversial with no real right answer, which is why you don't want to do it.

You don't know that they'll start a second civil war though. Besides, for one thing, the Romanov children wouldn't have even been eligible to rule. After Nicholas' abdication on behalf of Alexei, they were all at the end of the line of succession.

1. You're right, we don't know. But we also don't know Hitler Babby will grow up to do the same shit again. "Kill one, probably/maybe/likely save millions" is a hell of a decision to be faced with, one few people in history have faced, perhaps at some point in the distant future when it's been faced openly and honestly enough times we'll develop an ethical framework to it, we don't have a sure-fire one right now.
2. I don't buy this abdication shit, and I suspect neither do you. All it takes is one easily influenced or willing defector, and not even that necessarily, just someone who is willing to shut the fuck up until the ultra-pissy white faction wins by just up and declaring X,Y,Z the new monarch and fighting for them.