[DEFEATED] Liberate Westphalia

[Fauxia]

Okay but like here’s the thing...

If this hurts raiders to pass, why are the raiders telling us not to vote for?

What? If it hurts raiders, of course they’d support reasons not to vote for.

Lol, I made another dummy. If it hurts raiders not to pass. Argh. Not my day, I don’t think

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Okay but like here’s the thing...



What? If it hurts raiders, of course they’d support reasons not to vote for.

Lol, I made another dummy. If it hurts raiders not to pass. Argh. Not my day, I don’t think

Pt. 3 - Wait where did anyone say it hurts the raiders if it fails? The raiders here have certainly said the opposite.

Preemptive pt. 4 - No one has said that it passing helps the raiders either. You’re gonna need to back up and explain this from square one

[The Grand Puffle Republic]

I wondering if this proposal plagiarises "Liberate The Fascist State of North America"?

Liberate The Fascist State of North America was posted 10:19 pm, Liberate Westphalia was posted 11:19 am.

Liberate Westphalia ---> Appreciating the steps it has taken to bring nations together, through the creation of a constitution, a map, its own government, and many other efforts made to strengthen their community,

Liberate The Fascist State of North America ---> Appreciating the steps it has taken to bring like minded right leaning nations together through the creation of a constitution, a map, its own government, WA legislative participation and many other efforts made to strengthen their community,

They're virtually identical clauses. So one or the other had to have been plagiarized. It seems to me, Fascist State of North America was posted first. Has this been discussed in either thread yet?

If it was plagiarized, it certainly was not done on my part. We had written that clause a good half a day before this thread was posted, if my memory serves.

[Wrapper]

I wondering if this proposal plagiarises "Liberate The Fascist State of North America"?

Liberate The Fascist State of North America was posted 10:19 pm, Liberate Westphalia was posted 11:19 am.

I don't know what time zone you're in, but this one's OP was posted eleven hours before the other OP. That said, both have been edited, so we don't know for sure which came first. Unless one of the authors complains, we'll probably let it go.

[Unibot III]

If it was plagiarized, it certainly was not done on my part. We had written that clause a good half a day before this thread was posted, if my memory serves.

Who are you people is my next question? Like, most people in this thread who are concerned about Westphalia have said it'd be ideal to wait a bit and every invader here has been salivating at this thing going to vote early - and you're like "FORGE AHEAD BABY!!!" It's an attitude that's hard to find sincere.

[Lord Dominator]

If it was plagiarized, it certainly was not done on my part. We had written that clause a good half a day before this thread was posted, if my memory serves.

Who are you people is my next question? Like, most people in this thread who are concerned about Westphalia have said it'd be ideal to wait a bit and every invader here has been salivating at this thing going to vote early - and you're like "FORGE AHEAD BABY!!!" It's an attitude that's hard to find sincere.

OP is (currently) a native, Puffle is founder of 'The Peaceful Coffee Shop in Chicago,' which I believe is one of the regions Westphalia used to have an embassy with. Puffle's region is also tagged defender at that, but I obviously have no idea if that's just a tag that looked cool or if the region has any actual defender ties.

[Oresland]

"How would this liberation help the natives of Westphalia? I'm usually in favor of liberations, but this liberation won't help defenders nor raiders. Firstly, there's no password in place, so this liberation is pointless. Secondly, even if it were to pass, what would happen next? Nations who have tried to help the natives have already failed and all it would do is continue that trend, especially with a strong coalition of raider regions. I'm sorry, but this time I'm opposed."

[Nightkill]

Who are you people is my next question? Like, most people in this thread who are concerned about Westphalia have said it'd be ideal to wait a bit and every invader here has been salivating at this thing going to vote early - and you're like "FORGE AHEAD BABY!!!" It's an attitude that's hard to find sincere.

OP is (currently) a native, Puffle is founder of 'The Peaceful Coffee Shop in Chicago,' which I believe is one of the regions Westphalia used to have an embassy with. Puffle's region is also tagged defender at that, but I obviously have no idea if that's just a tag that looked cool or if the region has any actual defender ties.

Both regions are members of SWORD.

[Lord Dominator]

OP is (currently) a native, Puffle is founder of 'The Peaceful Coffee Shop in Chicago,' which I believe is one of the regions Westphalia used to have an embassy with. Puffle's region is also tagged defender at that, but I obviously have no idea if that's just a tag that looked cool or if the region has any actual defender ties.

Both regions are members of SWORD.

Shit, no idea how I missed that.

[The Noble Thatcherites]

Against. So long as there isn't a password this is absolutely pointless. I haven't done my homework on past legal precedents, but a preemptive liberation is dumb—it corrodes the value of a liberation.

Edit: added an em dash cuz why not.

[Sacred Toast]

Even though I support the freeing of Westphalia greatly, I do not support this Liberation. This could do more harm than good since Liberating a region will make it harder to defend even if the raiders give up on it. As long as the region is not passworded, I will be against this.

[Jakker]

It is so sweet of the SC to broadcast the raid for all of NS to see.

[Queen Yuno]

^

I was thinking that too, though they were careful not to name drop TBH.


I think i'd vote against this
Westphalia has a *history* with the Iron Order, but don't cite me on this, I may be remembering wrong and will need to verify.

[WikiPlay]

If it was plagiarized, it certainly was not done on my part. We had written that clause a good half a day before this thread was posted, if my memory serves.

Who are you people is my next question? Like, most people in this thread who are concerned about Westphalia have said it'd be ideal to wait a bit and every invader here has been salivating at this thing going to vote early - and you're like "FORGE AHEAD BABY!!!" It's an attitude that's hard to find sincere.

Suppose that the majority vote against this resolution then raiders force a invisible password on Westphalia and someone (maybe you?) must write exactly the same SC proposal. What is the purpose of this or why should you make things even more complicated if there is already a easy way to solve this situation?

The second option is to vote for this resolution. This to prevent that raiders aren’t able to place a invisible password on westphalia.

In both cases they will kick out more and more natives. If we wait even longer, which is proposed by unibot_III then raiders gain more influence over time and the regional banlist get even bigger. I doubt that there will be one single native in Westphalia then. In that case raiders

The so called liberation attempt of unibot_III didn’t made any impression to me (see GamePlay forum). I doubt that there actually was one single liberation attempt?

the most important aspect is that the democratic majority if Westphalia vote FOR this resolution.

Westphalia is nothing more then a tennis ball that is smashed between defenders that occupy Iran and raiders that occupy Westphalia.Westphalia is once again the victim of this battle.

There is no single raider organization that is able to raid Iran, no way!!! The reverse is certainly also true.

We have to solve this occupation and prevent further damage as a result of this “stockpiling” operation on both sides of the line.

Westphalia is the victim of this raider/defender clash.
If this fails then nothing positive will happen, except a second liberation resolution but this time witten by a huge defender region to promote their own defender region while the nominee is a completly destroyed Westphalia without any natives.


Therefore, I vote FOR this liberation but AGAINST a possible second liberation. I don’t defend regions without natives. That is nonsense: password protected or not: if there are no natives left then you can better send us a telegram to leave Westphalia and refound it.

So far, there is no such communication: thank you!

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Suppose that the majority vote against this resolution then raiders force a invisible password on Westphalia and someone (maybe you?) must write exactly the same SC proposal. What is the purpose of this or why should you make things even more complicated if there is already a easy way to solve this situation?

The second option is to vote for this resolution. This to prevent that raiders aren’t able to place a invisible password on westphalia.

In both cases they will kick out more and more natives. If we wait even longer, which is proposed by unibot_III then raiders gain more influence over time and the regional banlist get even bigger. I doubt that there will be one single native in Westphalia then. In that case raiders

Yeah, I'm really not sure either as to why they're actively speaking against this. Seems to me that it can't hurt all that much, and is harder to pass while at vote a second time. *shrug*

The so called liberation attempt of unibot_III didn’t made any impression to me (see GamePlay forum). I doubt that there actually was one single liberation attempt?

No, there has not been a notable liberation attempt at update. You are correct there.

the most important aspect is that the democratic majority if Westphalia vote FOR this resolution.

Westphalia is nothing more then a tennis ball that is smashed between defenders that occupy Iran and raiders that occupy Westphalia.Westphalia is once again the victim of this battle.

That's not true. See my prior wall in this thread - as this resolution itself declares loudly and proudly, Westphalia was aligned *with* the defenders. Not a victim when you're a member of one of the combatant organizations (SWORD).

There is no single raider organization that is able to raid Iran, no way!!! The reverse is certainly also true.

Half true. No single org, sure. Iran has largely had less than 30 endorsements on delegate. The initial jumping force to begin the occupation of Westphalia had more than 30 jumping raids. Raiding together certainly has enough! It's not piled very high.

We have to solve this occupation and prevent further damage as a result of this “stockpiling” operation on both sides of the line.

Westphalia is the victim of this raider/defender clash.
If this fails then nothing positive will happen, except a second liberation resolution but this time witten by a huge defender region to promote their own defender region while the nominee is a completly destroyed Westphalia without any natives.

Re: hard to be a victim while having been a proud member of one of the combatant orgs.

Therefore, I vote FOR this liberation but AGAINST a possible second liberation. I don’t defend regions without natives. That is nonsense: password protected or not: if there are no natives left then you can better send us a telegram to leave Westphalia and refound it.

So far, there is no such communication: thank you!

Westphalia was communicated with by SWORD and others prior to this raid that it was at *very* high risk of being invaded.

[He Qixin 2]

OOC: I don't think there's a way for this to pass. Already literally WAY more people voted 'Against' than 'For'.

[Tim-Opolis]

*glances at the vote*

This is why, kids, when you're told by pretty much every experienced SCer not to submit your proposal... you don't submit your proposal.

[He Qixin 2]

This is why, kids, when you're told by pretty much every experienced SCer not to submit your proposal... you don't submit your proposal.

OOC: Agreed.

[He Qixin 2]

OOC: Quote from a "Vote for a GA proposal" campaign telegram from The North Pacific (the region im in):

Westphalia is a major and very old defender region who, among other things, founded FORGE - one of the biggest defender alliances in NationStates. However, they have broken our recruitment policy in the past by trying to recruit nations from The North Pacific. Furthermore, the Ministry would note that a password has not been imposed on the region, and appears unlikely to be imposed in the future as the influence levels of the natives in the region have considerable regional influence making a refound extremely difficult. Thus, making this liberation unnecessary.
For these reasons, the Ministry of World Assembly Affairs recommends voting against the resolution.

I will post this to every resolution from now on that is tagged "[AT VOTE]" so that people can have a clearer decision on whether to vote "For" or "Against".

[Imperium Anglorum]

OOC: Quote from a "Vote for a GA proposal" campaign telegram from The North Pacific (the region im in):

Westphalia is a major and very old defender region who, among other things, founded FORGE - one of the biggest defender alliances in NationStates. However, they have broken our recruitment policy in the past by trying to recruit nations from The North Pacific. Furthermore, the Ministry would note that a password has not been imposed on the region, and appears unlikely to be imposed in the future as the influence levels of the natives in the region have considerable regional influence making a refound extremely difficult. Thus, making this liberation unnecessary.
For these reasons, the Ministry of World Assembly Affairs recommends voting against the resolution.

I will post this to every resolution from now on that is tagged "[AT VOTE]" so that people can have a clearer decision on whether to vote "For" or "Against".

What a service! It isn't like you could find that information ANYWHERE else! Oh wait. https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=966310

[Unibot III]

Suppose that the majority vote against this resolution then raiders force a invisible password on Westphalia and someone (maybe you?) must write exactly the same SC proposal. What is the purpose of this or why should you make things even more complicated if there is already a easy way to solve this situation?

The second option is to vote for this resolution. This to prevent that raiders aren’t able to place a invisible password on westphalia.

In both cases they will kick out more and more natives. If we wait even longer, which is proposed by unibot_III then raiders gain more influence over time and the regional banlist get even bigger. I doubt that there will be one single native in Westphalia then. In that case raiders

The so called liberation attempt of unibot_III didn’t made any impression to me (see GamePlay forum). I doubt that there actually was one single liberation attempt?

the most important aspect is that the democratic majority if Westphalia vote FOR this resolution.

Westphalia is nothing more then a tennis ball that is smashed between defenders that occupy Iran and raiders that occupy Westphalia.Westphalia is once again the victim of this battle.

There is no single raider organization that is able to raid Iran, no way!!! The reverse is certainly also true.

We have to solve this occupation and prevent further damage as a result of this “stockpiling” operation on both sides of the line.

I didn't kill this resolution, kid. The thousands of votes that stomped on it did. I told you it was too early, because it was.

I've seen this before: "Liberate Land of the Liberals" and subsequently, Douria's Repeal GA#2. I'm experienced enough to know something is up.

Rolamec / Mike the Progressive. IE: The Founder of Westphalia. Westphalia's founder was the invader delegate in "Liberate Land of the Liberals." This is clearly someone's idea of a joke at Mike's expense. Nine years makes for a helluva slow burner. 'Environmental Rebels' pulled this maneuver when New Earth (Rolamec) was invading Land of the Liberals. It’s too big of a coincidence that Rolamec could be the centre of two of the SC’s only cases of outright sabatoge.

Look, the resolution is a poisoned chalice. The WA Liberation was proposed too early, its defeat was pre-organized with stompers against. It was submitted in bad faith to exhaust the WA's patience with Westphalia's file. Speaking as the guy who got "Liberate Land of the Liberals" passed - there's one way forward, you regroup, rewrite, organize a vote stack, and resubmit in a couple's week time. You gotta hustle to pass it.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Erm, if the author is trying to sink prospects of a lib, it sure ain’t something I know about? I’ve not been much for SC skullduggery for years, since Islam under Sicarius. Found over the years that usually being straightforwards wins you more respect where it matters. As far as I know, this is a native and a native of a SWORD allied region as author and co-author.

You do realize that half of every native and their cousin jump right to an SC lib for awareness and better-safe-than-sorry password and refound protection the moment it’s clear that a defensive liberation is not occurring, right?

Ocham’s razor. Does it make more sense that a desperate native feeling let down by most of the world ignored advice to wait on submitting the lib, or that this is some raider plot to muddy the waters? If you’re gonna go with the latter, for any proof besides speculation to back that up?

[WikiPlay]

Suppose that the majority vote against this resolution then raiders force a invisible password on Westphalia and someone (maybe you?) must write exactly the same SC proposal. What is the purpose of this or why should you make things even more complicated if there is already a easy way to solve this situation?

The second option is to vote for this resolution. This to prevent that raiders aren’t able to place a invisible password on westphalia.

In both cases they will kick out more and more natives. If we wait even longer, which is proposed by unibot_III then raiders gain more influence over time and the regional banlist get even bigger. I doubt that there will be one single native in Westphalia then. In that case raiders

The so called liberation attempt of unibot_III didn’t made any impression to me (see GamePlay forum). I doubt that there actually was one single liberation attempt?

the most important aspect is that the democratic majority if Westphalia vote FOR this resolution.

Westphalia is nothing more then a tennis ball that is smashed between defenders that occupy Iran and raiders that occupy Westphalia.Westphalia is once again the victim of this battle.

There is no single raider organization that is able to raid Iran, no way!!! The reverse is certainly also true.

We have to solve this occupation and prevent further damage as a result of this “stockpiling” operation on both sides of the line.

I didn't kill this resolution, kid. The thousands of votes that stomped on it did. I told you it was too early, because it was.

I've seen this before: "Liberate Land of the Liberals" and subsequently, Douria's Repeal GA#2. I'm experienced enough to know something is up.

Rolamec / Mike the Progressive. IE: The Founder of Westphalia. Westphalia's founder was the invader delegate in "Liberate Land of the Liberals." This is clearly someone's idea of a joke at Mike's expense. Nine years makes for a helluva slow burner. 'Environmental Rebels' pulled this maneuver when New Earth (Rolamec) was invading Land of the Liberals. It’s too big of a coincidence that Rolamec could be the centre of two of the SC’s only cases of outright sabatoge.

Look, the resolution is a poisoned chalice. The WA Liberation was proposed too early, its defeat was pre-organized with stompers against. It was submitted in bad faith to exhaust the WA's patience with Westphalia's file. Speaking as the guy who got "Liberate Land of the Liberals" passed - there's one way forward, you regroup, rewrite, organize a vote stack, and resubmit in a couple's week time. You gotta hustle to pass it.

Huh.. wait a second. If you are able to register on the regional offsite of Westphalia then all registered nations can see the opposite: the founder (Mike) was a defender and did many efforts to establish the defender group that was called The Westphalian Guard.

Furthermore, the founder of Westphalia had ties with the active invader region The Kingdom of Denmark. You may ask it to the regional founder.

May I ask you which nation that I may contact to check whether your claim is true unibot_III

[Nightkill]

OOC: Quote from a "Vote for a GA proposal" campaign telegram from The North Pacific (the region im in):

Westphalia is a major and very old defender region who, among other things, founded FORGE - one of the biggest defender alliances in NationStates. However, they have broken our recruitment policy in the past by trying to recruit nations from The North Pacific. Furthermore, the Ministry would note that a password has not been imposed on the region, and appears unlikely to be imposed in the future as the influence levels of the natives in the region have considerable regional influence making a refound extremely difficult. Thus, making this liberation unnecessary.
For these reasons, the Ministry of World Assembly Affairs recommends voting against the resolution.

I will post this to every resolution from now on that is tagged "[AT VOTE]" so that people can have a clearer decision on whether to vote "For" or "Against".

Well, this is a bunch of bullarchy. Not to dis on TNP, but they have one fact very wrong in that message. Westphalia did not found FORGE, it joined forge less than four months before the organization shut down. FORGE was created by LCRUA and two other regions, Solid Kingdom and one other I forget. It was the brainchild of Krypton Nova, and not a single person from Westphalia ever had a hand in its creation.

Edit: I can't spell after just waking up XD

[Unibot III]

You do realize that half of every native and their cousin jump right to an SC lib for awareness and better-safe-than-sorry password and refound protection the moment it’s clear that a defensive liberation is not occurring, right?

You do realize they do that typically because we advise them to do that? Half of them are ghost-written by me.

This isn't a typical WA Liberation. It seems like sabotage to me. And more suspiciously, the last time this happened in the SC, it was over the founder of Westphalia's raid (Land of the Liberals.)

I didn't kill this resolution, kid. The thousands of votes that stomped on it did. I told you it was too early, because it was.

I've seen this before: "Liberate Land of the Liberals" and subsequently, Douria's Repeal GA#2. I'm experienced enough to know something is up.

Rolamec / Mike the Progressive. IE: The Founder of Westphalia. Westphalia's founder was the invader delegate in "Liberate Land of the Liberals." This is clearly someone's idea of a joke at Mike's expense. Nine years makes for a helluva slow burner. 'Environmental Rebels' pulled this maneuver when New Earth (Rolamec) was invading Land of the Liberals. It’s too big of a coincidence that Rolamec could be the centre of two of the SC’s only cases of outright sabatoge.

Look, the resolution is a poisoned chalice. The WA Liberation was proposed too early, its defeat was pre-organized with stompers against. It was submitted in bad faith to exhaust the WA's patience with Westphalia's file. Speaking as the guy who got "Liberate Land of the Liberals" passed - there's one way forward, you regroup, rewrite, organize a vote stack, and resubmit in a couple's week time. You gotta hustle to pass it.

Huh.. wait a second. If you are able to register on the regional offsite of Westphalia then all registered nations can see the opposite: the founder (Mike) was a defender and did many efforts to establish the defender group that was called The Westphalian Guard.

Furthermore, the founder of Westphalia had ties with the active invader region The Kingdom of Denmark. You may ask it to the regional founder.

May I ask you which nation that I may contact to check whether your claim is true unibot_III

The founder of Westphalia is Mike, a good friend and former UDLer. He, in a past life. was Rolamec - an invader with New Earth.