[DISCONTINUED] Sapient Acknowledgement Act

[Araraukar]

"This looks like it would cause some... Unnecessary strain on diplomatic relations whether they be friendly or not. Do not think any nation would want to share anything at all if it means that it would get shared through the World Assembly to a possible enemy. Or even just in general, there goes a lot of meaningful trust building right out the window to the void of space.



Though seriously, looks like you are just trying to take up space with a definition for this right here. Pretty sure that in this notably human filled existence and then some that not every 'human' (Furettium made sure to put air quotes around that word.) nation is a part of the World Assembly and by saying not from a world of humans, does that mean they get an exemption on having anything they share to a member of this group pretty much exposed to this body."

OOC: If you're going to edit out your snarky replies, then edit out the quote as well, because now it looks like you just reposted someone else's post without adding anything. Put in something like "Withdrawn" or "Post removed" instead.

I'll try to get to this tomorrow properly, but I'm going to assume the first post of the thread has the most current draft of the proposal, so please make sure to put it there.

[New Mushroom Kingdom]

Under instruction from the Regent, the New Mushroom Kingdom opposes this resolution both in it's current state and any future forms. As a nation with a non-human, technically extraterrestrial (well, extradimensional really) majority, we disagree with and reject this proposal's premise. In particular, we strongly disagree with duties b, d and e as well as the very unreasonable third and fourth decrees. If you so request I will go over our objections in greater detail.
-- Ambassador Holly Dyer, Ambassador for the New Mushroom Kingdom.

[Kenmoria]

"There is an erroneous capital on the "The" in the third clause."

[Hezapotamia]

Under instruction from the Regent, the New Mushroom Kingdom opposes this resolution both in it's current state and any future forms. As a nation with a non-human, technically extraterrestrial (well, extradimensional really) majority, we disagree with and reject this proposal's premise. In particular, we strongly disagree with duties b, d and e as well as the very unreasonable third and fourth decrees. If you so request I will go over our objections in greater detail.
-- Ambassador Holly Dyer, Ambassador for the New Mushroom Kingdom.

Yes please elaborate your issues with those sections.

[Nullite]

What counts as an alien?

[Hezapotamia]

OOC: If you're going to edit out your snarky replies, then edit out the quote as well, because now it looks like you just reposted someone else's post without adding anything. Put in something like "Withdrawn" or "Post removed" instead.

I'll try to get to this tomorrow properly, but I'm going to assume the first post of the thread has the most current draft of the proposal, so please make sure to put it there.

Thank you it's up to date.

[Kenmoria]

"There is no finishing punctuation on the second and fourth clauses."

[New Mushroom Kingdom]

Under instruction from the Regent, the New Mushroom Kingdom opposes this resolution both in it's current state and any future forms. As a nation with a non-human, technically extraterrestrial (well, extradimensional really) majority, we disagree with and reject this proposal's premise. In particular, we strongly disagree with duties b, d and e as well as the very unreasonable third and fourth decrees. If you so request I will go over our objections in greater detail.
-- Ambassador Holly Dyer, Ambassador for the New Mushroom Kingdom.

Yes please elaborate your issues with those sections.

Ambassador Holly re-entered the room, and with her was the Deputy Ambassador, a female Toadette called Marina Shiraishi. Holly responded to the delegate from Hexapotamia: "With pleasure, but as I am busy elsewhere I will have my deputy actually point out the things I found. As a bonus, it helps make a point."

Marina's voice was rather high-pitched, but that was normal for Toad and Toadettes alike. She picked up both a copy of the proposal and her colleague's notes, and proceeded to read aloud from them.

Noting Some nations may not have experienced Alien life forms.
Defining “alien”, for the purpose of this proposal as intelligent life forms that are not human nor from the world of humans or other sapient WA member species.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with this definition, but the assumptions and redundancy in it mean it has multiple flaws. The most minor one is that 'other WA member species' makes the bit about humans redundant (and from a pedantic point of view, there are no WA member species, instead species that reside in WA member nations), Secondly, the way this clause is worded results in ambiguity in situations where WA members occupy multiple planets or not planets at all. I am not personally aware of any in the latter situation but given the enormous variety in member states I would not count on it. If there are multiple worlds, which one is the world? The Toad species that makes up the majority of the New Mushroom Kingdom exists both on this planet and another - which is the world of the species and which is presumably alien? Is a species that for some reason no longer occupies a planet alien to all nations?

Understanding the need to protect our worlds if the occasion should arise.
Demands the creation of the World Assembly Alien Establishment.

No objections, despite that this could be interpreted as xenophobic even though the intention clearly isn't. Even if 'Establishment' is a weird name for a committee.

Whose duties are:
a. To create an international database for categorizing hostile & friendly life forms.

No objections, though we would imagine such a database already exists in some form.

b. To inform WA governments of new Alien species that are a threat to the existence of all sapient species.

I'll leave this one for later. The clause itself is not problematic, it has good intentions, but we disagree with the reasoning and motive behind it.

c. To investigate Aliens trespassing on WA planets.

d. To study Alien Life form’s genetics and anatomy.

e. To study Alien planets.

f. To establish constant communication to WA members space centers.

This is the first part that we really view as wrong. For c, this issue even existing in the first place is doubtful, and even if it does and it's an international issue, wouldn't the best people to handle it be the military and police of the nation they're actually trespassing in, rather than a remote World Assembly committee, wasting time and resources on mostly harmless aliens. Moving on, there's d and e. E is unlikely to cause any problems, but D could very easily be used as a reason for doing some very unethical alien research. Hell, you'd even get test subjects handed over on a silver platter thanks to C. F is redundant due to Duty IV (which is not a good requirement anyway)

The World Assembly hereby decrees:

I. The creation of the World Assembly Alien Establishment. (WAAE), Funded by the WA.

II. The WAAE will notify all nations in the event of Alien contact.

Your intention here is that the event, if it occurs, will be one-of-a-kind or at least very rare. However, given that the world has an extreme variety of nations and this extends to the WA, this won't be the case because the underlying assumption (alien contact is rare, there are few aliens) is completely invalid. The previously given definition of alien only makes the chances higher.

III. All nations must share any data or information pertaining to Aliens, alien Space Craft, and weaponry with WA member nations.

IV. The WAAE will have access to space centers, super telescopes, and observatories within the WA.

No objection to duty three, even if in my opinion it's a rather strong mandate. You might want to tweak the wording though, mentioning both 'all nations' and 'WA member nations' in one sentence seems weird to me. We do have a rather strong objection to Duty IV, because in the NMK's opinion this power is almost entirely unjustified. Why does an committee solely about aliens get to have access to such a broad range of space-related facilities for no specific reason? Any alien-related activity that occurs in such places is vastly dwarfed by the non-related activities, so why does it have a general mandate rather than one limited to the committee's field and activities of interest?

V. The WAAE cannot withhold any information from WA governments.

VI. WA members have the right to withhold WAAE information from their citizens.

No objections - while other people or member states may advocate for the right of the citizens to know this information, the NMK is not one of them.

Finally, we come to what I believe is the motivation and underlying belief of this proposal. While it never explicitly says it, the tone and content of this proposal is clearly slanted towards belief in hostile, malicious alien species that seek to invade and destroy the world. It could be that the Ambassador was reading too much into it, but it's notable that while it acknowledges the possibility of hostile aliens, and friendly species, other than that it is silent. The unspoken belief behind this proposal is that you are afraid of what you deem aliens, and you want protection from the unknown forces that clearly are hostile to you and to everyone else. It is my (and other people's) belief that most aliens are not actively trying to kill or conquer you - they're likely to be indifferent or even friendly towards other species and planets. What's also notable is the lack of any safeguards related to these aliens, because unless they truly are hostile, then they should be protected equally, yet I have doubts this proposal will lead to that.
In my opinion, it would be a difficult task to suitably deal with all of our objections, but if you do manage it we have nothing in principle against the idea of WA-originated alien regulations.

[Grays Harbor]

What counts as an alien?

From my point of view, every one of you is an "alien" to me, since there is not a single one of you from the planet my nation resides on.

[United Museum Folks]

What counts as an alien?

From my point of view, every one of you is an "alien" to me, since there is not a single one of you from the planet my nation resides on.

This statement sums up the potential problem with the definition of ‘Alien’. With my own personal dimension being mostly inhabited by those who did not originate from planet, everyone is technically an Alien (although this is a derogatory word that is frowned upon in polite society). For those on Greeble-4532, their Gnomish society considers all humans Aliens as they do not originate from that planet. Aliens are not necessarily those who are not humanoid, but in fact those who are ‘other’.

Perhaps an effective re-word would be:
Defining “alien”, for the purpose of this proposal, as a non-native resident of the planet/reality/galaxy that is being visited.

[Araraukar]

Secondly, the way this clause is worded results in ambiguity in situations where WA members occupy multiple planets or not planets at all. I am not personally aware of any in the latter situation but given the enormous variety in member states I would not count on it.

OOC whisper: Excidium Planetis.

[Allied Sapients]

((OOC: And if you really want to stretch for it, Essu Beti since Iksana basically lives in WAHQ now ))

“On second read,” says Ambassador Olsh. “This proposal is unnecessarily discriminatory and xenophobic in its wording. Why do you wish to imply that all nonhuman, non-WA lifeforms, such as myself, are dangerous?”

[Araraukar]

((OOC: And if you really want to stretch for it, Essu Beti since Iksana basically lives in WAHQ now ))

OOC: PPU would've fit it, except it now has Ascencion Island, which is why I didn't use it as an example...

...actually, I think WAKK would fit, as the cats live in the WAHQ, but I wouldn't really call them a nation, just a very small organization.

EDIT: Also, RL happened so I didn't have and don't right now have time to comb through this. I'll try to get to it by Monday latest. (My birthday's coming up and I'm having to clean and try out some new baking recipes... and then probably clean again.)

[The Greater Siriusian Domain]

*Ambassador Teran Saber clears his throat, then picks at the claws of his right hand. His ears are pulled back in the typical feline "I am going to disembowel you where you stand" position, and there's a noticeable grimace on his face with his fangs clearly visible. He glares at the ambassador of Hezapotamia, his oval pupils and bright yellow eyes contrasting his dark slate fur.*

[The First German Order]

ASD stands in the doorway with a look of disgust on his face. "I may originate from this planet but because I'm not human by these terms I would be an "alien". This is disgusting. I'd have you ripped limb from limb by drone units if I wasn't disconnected from the mainframe." ASD then proceeds to walk away while making a vulgar gesture to the Hezapotamia representative in the room.

[Hezapotamia]

Thank you all for your feed back and I will do my best to address concerns.

[Hezapotamia]

*Ambassador Teran Saber clears his throat, then picks at the claws of his right hand. His ears are pulled back in the typical feline "I am going to disembowel you where you stand" position, and there's a noticeable grimace on his face with his fangs clearly visible. He glares at the ambassador of Hezapotamia, his oval pupils and bright yellow eyes contrasting his dark slate fur.*

*Ambassador Franklin Bash looks at his personal bodyguard, he's concerned for his own well being. The Bodyguard gives ambassador Bash a reassuring nod. "Ambassador Saber. I apologize if this proposal has offended you. I assure you, your people will not be affected by this act. please tell me your concerns." Ambassador Bash gestures Ambassador Saber to sit.

[Dirty Americans]

I ask this question semi-seriously, what is "alien intelligence?" There is a tendency to look at the first word as the driver here: Aliens as in non nationals or non planetary natives, thus it is an "Intelligence Act" for ET?

All said and good but since some of these aliens are members of the WA in good standing, having a WA body keep "intelligence" on them is a basic violation of general uniformity of resolutions across all nations.

Now if you were to write a resolution about intelligence that is completely alien "differing in nature or character typically to the point of incompatibility" I might be more interested.

[Allied Sapients]

"Even if they aren't part of the WA, it is dangerous and insulting to claim that we're "a threat to the existence of all sapient species." The entire purpose of the Coalition is to protect sapient species; why are we being treated as a threat?" Ambassador Olsh asked, flaring her mane.

[The Greater Siriusian Domain]

*Ambassador Teran Saber clears his throat, then picks at the claws of his right hand. His ears are pulled back in the typical feline "I am going to disembowel you where you stand" position, and there's a noticeable grimace on his face with his fangs clearly visible. He glares at the ambassador of Hezapotamia, his oval pupils and bright yellow eyes contrasting his dark slate fur.*

*Ambassador Franklin Bash looks at his personal bodyguard, he's concerned for his own well being. The Bodyguard gives ambassador Bash a reassuring nod. "Ambassador Saber. I apologize if this proposal has offended you. I assure you, your people will not be affected by this act. please tell me your concerns." Ambassador Bash gestures Ambassador Saber to sit.

Teran Saber: "I'm not necessarily offended. It's just a visual reminder that not all World Assembly member states are human nations."

[Giant Bats]

Teran Saber: "I'm not necessarily offended. It's just a visual reminder that not all World Assembly member states are human nations."

"Or furry warm-blooded creatures that feed their young with fat- and protein rich water secreted by specialized sweat glands," Ikiti said. What the modified universal translator actually made of her words, was "Or mammals."

The Tikrr ambassador, who looked pretty much like a cross between a giant eyeless bat and, if she opened her mouth, a shark, flexed the killing claws on her feet, shuffling around a bit on her perch behind her desk, leaning some of her weight onto the hands on her wing limbs braced against the desk, with the two long wing fingers resting back against the forearms to make her form more compact when perching, disguising the fact that, when fully spread, her wings could span a little over six metres. When she shrugged her wing limbs back to their regular resting position, the spines on her back rubbed against one another, creating a short, hissing rattle.

- Ikiti Tikilikrr, the Head of the Diplomatic Wing, 10th generation mother of two

[Hezapotamia]

*Ambassador Franklin Bash looks at his personal bodyguard, he's concerned for his own well being. The Bodyguard gives ambassador Bash a reassuring nod. "Ambassador Saber. I apologize if this proposal has offended you. I assure you, your people will not be affected by this act. please tell me your concerns." Ambassador Bash gestures Ambassador Saber to sit.

Teran Saber: "I'm not necessarily offended. It's just a visual reminder that not all World Assembly member states are human nations."

I am now aware of that and Tuesdays version should reflect it.

[The Greater Siriusian Domain]

Teran Saber: "I'm not necessarily offended. It's just a visual reminder that not all World Assembly member states are human nations."

I am now aware of that and Tuesdays version should reflect it.

Teran Saber: "I'd also like to mention that this would result in poor relations between WA members and non-WA members. The Greater Siriusian Domain regularly interacts with smaller space-faring civilizations that are non-WA members. The WAAE would basically be allowed to study these civilizations as though they were non-sapient animals, and would result in massive bureaucratic inefficiencies in all dealings since such interactions would be defined as 'contacts'."

"Furthermore, the complete open access of WAAE to observation facilities and data pertaining to 'alien' vessels combined with the fact that the WAAE must share all info gathered with the World Assembly could result in breaches of confidentiality concerning certain technologies. We generally keep our FTL technology under lock and key when dealing with nations incapable of FTL travel, unless said nation has proven themselves trustworthy."

"Finally, for all intents and purposes, many human nations on Earth would qualify as 'aliens' for the purposes of this proposal (OOC: Not all, though, to open up the possibility of Earth-based non space-faring WA Member States interacting with the Greater Siriusian Domain), due to the fact that the Greater Siriusian Domain does not control or have any jurisdiction over that planet beyond simply maintaining an open border despite the fact that Earth lies not only within the Greater Siriusian Domain's boundaries. Or more specifically, they would qualify if this didn't establish a double-standard for humans and any non-human sapients that share their homeworld with humans."

[Ferret Civilization]

"Glad I was not the only one to have to bring up what Ambassador Teran Saber put in a way more elegant way than I could. Looking forward to seeing how that is going to be rectified in this kind of proposal."

[Araraukar]

I am now aware of that and Tuesdays version should reflect it.

OOC: The first post's last edit is from a Friday. Put the newest draft in the first post.