NS History: You've Got Questions, We've Got Answers!

[Juxtapositions]

"Founders" as we know them today were introduced along with regional controls (banject powers) for Delegates at the end of April 2003. [violet] was petitioned by the Heartland (which had been recently invaded by the Farkers in a noteworthy event) to "grandfather" Founders that could be reasonably verified and were supported by the regional community.


However, this "grandfathering" was sometimes exploited maliciously. The Farkers, for example, griefed America and United States - and hoodwinked the moderators into thinking they were the natives. To the extent that Farker nations were greenlit to become "founders" of America and United States.

We didn't really hoodwink anyone in the case of the United States, we founded that region fairly if I remember correctly. One of the biggest flaws in the original implementation of the regional controls was the ability for the delegate to eject someone combined with locking down the region. This was used to capture the region Blarney Castle which I consider one of our most daring takeovers.

At the time we had taken over Blarney Castle with a few members and the natives were not happy about it. Eventually they got help from Ireland and a couple of other regions and were able to outnumber farkers but just barely. The delgateship went back and forth for a few days until we proposed having a role play battle for the region. Whoever won takes the region and the others will leave. It was agreed by all sides to do this in the forums.

Of course, being farkers, we had no idea how to role play in the forum and had no intent to. Remember that this was in the first days/weeks of the region controls and they were not understood by many players. We created, as part of the role playing, a rule where all members of all sides excepting the delegate had to leave the region the night before the roleplay. Since the natives wanted their region back they happily agreed and left. We knew down the second when the region would update so the delegate left the region right before the update. This deleted the region because it had no members and then we immediately recreated the region making the delegate the founder. It was a dangerous move because if a native knew the update time it's likely they could be watching and take it from us before we could refound.

Next day comes, we predictably lose the roleplay and all leave the region. Except the founder who took all controls from the delegate. It took until the following day for anyone to realize they had won a powerless region. We eventually got bored with that region and we gave it up. It ceased to exist for a long time so I don't know who if anyone owns it anymore.

[Unibot III]

We didn't really hoodwink anyone in the case of the United States, we founded that region fairly if I remember correctly.

Fair enough, Juxtapositions. I appreciate you setting the record straight.

One of the biggest flaws in the original implementation of the regional controls was the ability for the delegate to eject someone combined with locking down the region. This was used to capture the region Blarney Castle which I consider one of our most daring takeovers.

At the time we had taken over Blarney Castle with a few members and the natives were not happy about it. Eventually they got help from Ireland and a couple of other regions and were able to outnumber farkers but just barely. The delgateship went back and forth for a few days until we proposed having a role play battle for the region. Whoever won takes the region and the others will leave. It was agreed by all sides to do this in the forums.

*nods* Thanks for sharing.

Others interested in reading about the invasion of Blarney Castle, might be interested in this archived news article. There's a decent amount of coverage from that time about the antagonism between Ireland and the Farkers.

[States of Glory]

At the time we had taken over Blarney Castle with a few members and the natives were not happy about it. Eventually they got help from Ireland and a couple of other regions and were able to outnumber farkers but just barely. The delgateship went back and forth for a few days until we proposed having a role play battle for the region. Whoever won takes the region and the others will leave. It was agreed by all sides to do this in the forums.

Of course, being farkers, we had no idea how to role play in the forum and had no intent to. Remember that this was in the first days/weeks of the region controls and they were not understood by many players. We created, as part of the role playing, a rule where all members of all sides excepting the delegate had to leave the region the night before the roleplay. Since the natives wanted their region back they happily agreed and left. We knew down the second when the region would update so the delegate left the region right before the update. This deleted the region because it had no members and then we immediately recreated the region making the delegate the founder. It was a dangerous move because if a native knew the update time it's likely they could be watching and take it from us before we could refound.

Next day comes, we predictably lose the roleplay and all leave the region. Except the founder who took all controls from the delegate. It took until the following day for anyone to realize they had won a powerless region. We eventually got bored with that region and we gave it up. It ceased to exist for a long time so I don't know who if anyone owns it anymore.

Wow. Now that was so incredibly sneaky and underhanded that I have no choice but to love it.

[United Federated States of Omega]

Why are the Grey Wardens called the Grey Wardens?

[Intelligeneria]

Why are the Grey Wardens called the Grey Wardens?

The Grey Wardens are a heroic organisation from the video game Dragon Age series. Benevolent Thomas, the Grey Wardens’ founder, is a big DA fan, so I guess he chose a Dragon Age theme for his region. The Grey Wardens in Dragon Age are an order of warriors who fight ‘Darkspawn’, or evil orc-like creatures. That’s why a lot of the TGW reports may refer to raiders as Darkspawn. Our flag, rank system (mostly), and forum areas (such as Weisshaupt Fortress) are lifted from Dragon Age lore.

Finally a question I can answer!

[Unibot III]

I've found something that TRR might be interested in. Apparently, our first known delegate - Sagar - was an invader. "E2" which he put on the WFE of both TRR and Axis of Evil's WFE was his calling card. He may have also have raided New Paradise, I don't really know if I fully understand what is going on yet in that raid.

I get the sense that his group were invaders, invading Axis of Evil (also invaders) - rather than Axis of Evil being his genuine home base. So it's a bit of a mystery as to what "E2" is referencing.

He remained delegate of Axis of Evil for some time. Perhaps until he CTE'd a month later, even.

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net//histo ... tart=&end=
https://web.archive.org/web/20030505035 ... is_of_evil
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... il/start=0
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... l/start=10
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... l/start=20
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... l/start=30
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... l/start=40
https://web.archive.org/web/20030508150 ... sed_rebels

EDIT: I think there's a few factions at play. "Organised Rebels" was anti-E2 and invaded Axis of Evil to eject E2's invaders. E2 came back to kick out the Rebels and hold on to Axis of Evil. New Paradise seems to have been invaded by Axis of Evil. I'm very confused about what the hell was going on.

But Sagar is an identifiable part of this "E2" group. I haven't found a home region yet if they had one...

"Hooray! E2 has left us! VICTORY FOR AoE!"
"E2 are now in the Rejected Realms which just about sums them up, really!"
"Organised Rebels is a safe haven for opposistion to corrupt governments, including the likes of E2 and the AXIS OF EVIL."

It seems likely to me, however, that E2's home region was "the rogue region of e 2" since it seems to have emptied around the same week as Sagar fell off the map.

[Prosorusiya]

Don't know if these have been asked before, but:

1. What was the first NS storefront ever created?
2. What were the first NS RPs like? Where there ever RPs\RP groups using the forms in the early days that used more formal rules, including D&D type systems, or has it always been a semi-consensual freeform type of RP like we see today?
3. What was the first big Military RP on NS?
4. What was the first issue to be submitted by a fan, rather than Max?

[Reploid Productions]

Don't know if these have been asked before, but:

1. What was the first NS storefront ever created?
2. What were the first NS RPs like? Where there ever RPs\RP groups using the forms in the early days that used more formal rules, including D&D type systems, or has it always been a semi-consensual freeform type of RP like we see today?
3. What was the first big Military RP on NS?
4. What was the first issue to be submitted by a fan, rather than Max?

I can give some info in response to a few of these at least!

1) While I'm not sure what the *first* storefront was, the NS section of the forum had plenty of users with their storefront threads in 2003 when I joined. Most I recall were generally modern tech or post-modern tech, but a few of us oldie FTers had some too. GMC Military Arms I think may have had one of the older such threads, he was doing a brisk business selling tanks back then.

2) Early NS RP was... chaotic. People were RPing before we had moderators, so conventions such as "thread ownership" and "you don't have to play with anyone you don't want to" weren't really in place. If you didn't want to play with somebody, it often entailed almost spammy deployments of superweapons usually referred to as "Ignore Cannons." Some folks attempted to use dice systems or more rigid game engines for their threads, but back then it was still largely the semi-consensual freeform style seen today. Arguably, the formal-rules crowd eventually evolved into what today is NS Sports, as sports RPing tends to be much more formally organized.

3) Not sure if it was the first, probably simply one of the first, but in Ye Olde Dayes Menelmacar and Melkor Unchained were one of the first big military rivalries, which ended up growing to include the Triumvirate of Yut alliance and several of Melk's regionmates from Arda. It was such a big deal that OOCly both sides had agreed to what we colloquially called the "Anti-Bitchfest Accord" that the two factions would never actually engage in full on warfare between the two alliances, simply because there was enough variation of personalities and tech levels that any such warfare would likely blowup into a huge OOC bitchfest of arguing over what was believable/fair/etc. It predates my joining, but the Amerigan Slave War was supposedly a pretty big deal as well, possibly also where the early NS meme of "Amerigo is a land of contrast" got started.

4) While I don't think any of us can easily dig up what the first issue submission was, the first issue actually added to the game that wasn't Max-authored is #31 "Get Efficient, Private Sector Tells Nature" which was submitted and written by user Manticorp Groundforces in July 2003.

[Unibot III]

While I don't think any of us can easily dig up what the first issue submission was,

Beyond me, I'm afraid. But I can tell you in six days of submissions opening, Max had 650 submissions.

[Pax Nerdvana]

While I don't think any of us can easily dig up what the first issue submission was,

Beyond me, I'm afraid. But I can tell you in six days of submissions opening, Max had 650 submissions.

Knowing how obsessive NSers can be, that doesn't really surprise me.

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

I've found something that TRR might be interested in. Apparently, our first known delegate - Sagar - was an invader. "E2" which he put on the WFE of both TRR and Axis of Evil's WFE was his calling card. He may have also have raided New Paradise, I don't really know if I fully understand what is going on yet in that raid.

I get the sense that his group were invaders, invading Axis of Evil (also invaders) - rather than Axis of Evil being his genuine home base. So it's a bit of a mystery as to what "E2" is referencing.

He remained delegate of Axis of Evil for some time. Perhaps until he CTE'd a month later, even.

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net//histo ... tart=&end=
https://web.archive.org/web/20030505035 ... is_of_evil
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... il/start=0
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... l/start=10
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... l/start=20
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... l/start=30
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... l/start=40
https://web.archive.org/web/20030508150 ... sed_rebels

EDIT: I think there's a few factions at play. "Organised Rebels" was anti-E2 and invaded Axis of Evil to eject E2's invaders. E2 came back to kick out the Rebels and hold on to Axis of Evil. New Paradise seems to have been invaded by Axis of Evil. I'm very confused about what the hell was going on.

But Sagar is an identifiable part of this "E2" group. I haven't found a home region yet if they had one...

"Hooray! E2 has left us! VICTORY FOR AoE!"
"E2 are now in the Rejected Realms which just about sums them up, really!"
"Organised Rebels is a safe haven for opposistion to corrupt governments, including the likes of E2 and the AXIS OF EVIL."

It seems likely to me, however, that E2's home region was "the rogue region of e 2" since it seems to have emptied around the same week as Sagar fell off the map.

I'm going to get The Rejected Realms' Historical Society to study Sagar, find some origins. Thanks for this info!

[Unibot III]

More stuff I found that wasn't relevant to what I'm researching, but still fairly erm, >_> 'cool'...

I found an awesome old Texan list of UN votes from March 18-20. It shows two previously unknown Pacific delegates (Ediview, Psychology). I'm interpreting the inclusion of two delegates as a bug: their votes both appeared in the transcript because there was a changeover in leadership and they both voted. Mikestonia (TNP) is already known, but Ediview and Psychology are completely unknown to me. I have no way of telling you which order Psychology and Ediview were delegates in - and it doesn't seem impossible to me that Sudetenland could have been delegate after Psychology/Ediview since they're not cited anywhere and Sudetenland was active on NS till mid-April. In which case we have our first two documented pre-Sudetenland Pacific delegates.

Here is the Intelligence Report from the SuperComputer on the UN Delegate vote from the last resolution:

UN Delegate(Region) Votes Position
1. Mikestonia(The North Pacific) 581 Against
2. Ediview(The Pacific) 429 Against
3. Killer Monkeys(The South Pacific) 373 Against
4. Psychology(The Pacific) 358 Against
5. The hellSpawn(HSX) 91 For
6. The Hideously Evil(Farktopia) 66 Against
7. Umbriago(Lazy College Students) 53 For
8. LeWonkatania(Axis) 49 No Vote
9. Moosea(The ACF Islands) 37 Against
10. Celdonia(Anticapitalist Alliance) 34 Against
11. Ineptia(The Heartland) 31 For
12. Autonomous People(Urbanites) 30 Against
13. NewTexas(Texas) 27 Against
14. The Bruce(Wysteria) 29 Against
15. Brians Room(North America) 27 Against
16. Guardinia(Apolyton) 26 Against
17. Nikolaykraina(Eastern Europe) 26 Against
18. Beautiful Ladies(Sissy) 25 Against
19. Pezzz(France) 25 Against
20. Timetable(Woldgate) 25 For
21. Hobbit-folk(Middle Earth) 24 Against
22. Cammon(Armageddon) 23 Against
23. Christia(0000000000 Trust in the Lord) 23 No Vote
24. Paravia(Australia) 22 Against
25. Sheol(Hell) 22 Against
26. Techno prisoners(South Pacific) 22 Against
28. Whispyhood(Island Nations of Aramir) 22 Against
29. The Kanisteri(000000000000) 21 For
30. Perpicle(Ireland) 20 For
...
1284 additional nations with 2 to 19 votes

Note: These are only the nations that voted on the last resolution or were being monitored by The Region of Texas. If any nation would like additional information, please address inquiries to NewTexas. As for the final vote, it was at least: Against: 8511 For: 4793.

I can tell you Psychology was the first known woman delegate of the Pacific. And arguably, one of only two in the region's history - counting Crazy girl for Oct 26 2003 (Bite Me, NPO.)

Ediview found himself in the Rejected Realms for some reason in Early May.

Sudetenland - XXXX - XXXX
Psychology XXXX - March 18
Ediview March 18 - XXXX
InfernoIce - XXXX - May 8.
The Wold - May 8 - May 11.
Jell-O - May 11 - May 16.
-Ukraine- - May 16 - May 21.
Olongapo - May 21 - June 25
TheDoc - June 25 - Aug 1
The Savage Lands - Aug 1 - Aug 14
TheDoc - Aug 14 - Aug 18
The Savage Lands - Aug 18 - Aug 20
TheDoc Aug 20 - Aug 28.
---- Francos Spain ----

I've asked Big Tex if it's possible if I can get a tarball of the old UN votes to poke through and see if I can identify some other nuggets of info from those. I suspect it'd very useful if someone could get their hands on the pre-May 2003 UN vote lists.

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

Interesting...

[Ryccia]

I have one.

Why does NSGP continue to exist anyway?

[Canton Empire]

I have one.

Why does NSGP continue to exist anyway?

Because we have a strange relationship with it

[Kanglia]

I have one.

Why does NSGP continue to exist anyway?

Because NSGP>NS

[Jar Wattinree]

I have one.

Why does NSGP continue to exist anyway?

Because satirical politics.

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

I'd like more information on Sagar if anyone could find anything.

[Unibot III]

I'd like more information on Sagar if anyone could find anything.

Well, from his population - he was founded around March 31, 2003 ± 2 days. (ish.) And we know where was until he CTE'd - he was invading Axis of Evil. His motto was "Let the refugees frolic in your lush forests...," and his nation was a Corporate Bordello.

So there's actually not much to know. There's only a month that's unaccounted or.

April 01-April 27 / May 02: A mystery.
April 27 / May 02 - May 04: Delegate of TRR. (Invasion)
May 05 - June 15-ish: Axis of Evil Delegate. (Invasion) [Chaos333 becomes delegate of Axis of Evil, but he's just as inactive as Sagar at this point]
CTE'd June 29.

He probably formed a base region of sorts. I suspect "the rogue region of E 2." His invader group seems to be called E2. No idea what it means. Maybe it's an outside game or forum name?

[Prosorusiya]

Don't know if these have been asked before, but:

1. What was the first NS storefront ever created?
2. What were the first NS RPs like? Where there ever RPs\RP groups using the forms in the early days that used more formal rules, including D&D type systems, or has it always been a semi-consensual freeform type of RP like we see today?
3. What was the first big Military RP on NS?
4. What was the first issue to be submitted by a fan, rather than Max?

I can give some info in response to a few of these at least!

1) While I'm not sure what the *first* storefront was, the NS section of the forum had plenty of users with their storefront threads in 2003 when I joined. Most I recall were generally modern tech or post-modern tech, but a few of us oldie FTers had some too. GMC Military Arms I think may have had one of the older such threads, he was doing a brisk business selling tanks back then.

2) Early NS RP was... chaotic. People were RPing before we had moderators, so conventions such as "thread ownership" and "you don't have to play with anyone you don't want to" weren't really in place. If you didn't want to play with somebody, it often entailed almost spammy deployments of superweapons usually referred to as "Ignore Cannons." Some folks attempted to use dice systems or more rigid game engines for their threads, but back then it was still largely the semi-consensual freeform style seen today. Arguably, the formal-rules crowd eventually evolved into what today is NS Sports, as sports RPing tends to be much more formally organized.

3) Not sure if it was the first, probably simply one of the first, but in Ye Olde Dayes Menelmacar and Melkor Unchained were one of the first big military rivalries, which ended up growing to include the Triumvirate of Yut alliance and several of Melk's regionmates from Arda. It was such a big deal that OOCly both sides had agreed to what we colloquially called the "Anti-Bitchfest Accord" that the two factions would never actually engage in full on warfare between the two alliances, simply because there was enough variation of personalities and tech levels that any such warfare would likely blowup into a huge OOC bitchfest of arguing over what was believable/fair/etc. It predates my joining, but the Amerigan Slave War was supposedly a pretty big deal as well, possibly also where the early NS meme of "Amerigo is a land of contrast" got started.

4) While I don't think any of us can easily dig up what the first issue submission was, the first issue actually added to the game that wasn't Max-authored is #31 "Get Efficient, Private Sector Tells Nature" which was submitted and written by user Manticorp Groundforces in July 2003.

Cool, thanks for the info! It’s neat that our gloriously messy RP traditions actually were community created... I was wondering about how it all got started because NS was one of the first places I actually too part in role play on, and I am interested in how the hobby has evolved on and offline. I’m also into classic role playing systems, I run a group that uses the old Fantasy Trip system from the 1980s.

I’ve run into that Amerigo meme before, it’s interesting to learn its backstory. When was the Slaver War?

I’ve always wondered, what features did NS2 have/promise compared to NS back in the day, and NS nowadays? I’ve heard tell there was a feature for declaring war...

[Bears Armed]

He probably formed a base region of sorts. I suspect "the rogue region of E 2." His invader group seems to be called E2. No idea what it means. Maybe it's an outside game or forum name?

Maybe he was based in London's 'E2' postal district? This consists of

Bethnal Green district: Bethnal Green, Haggerston, Hoxton (part), Shoreditch (part), Cambridge Heath, Globe Town (part), Shoreditch (part)

which is only just outside the old 'City of London'...

[Pax Nerdvana]

I can give some info in response to a few of these at least!

1) While I'm not sure what the *first* storefront was, the NS section of the forum had plenty of users with their storefront threads in 2003 when I joined. Most I recall were generally modern tech or post-modern tech, but a few of us oldie FTers had some too. GMC Military Arms I think may have had one of the older such threads, he was doing a brisk business selling tanks back then.

2) Early NS RP was... chaotic. People were RPing before we had moderators, so conventions such as "thread ownership" and "you don't have to play with anyone you don't want to" weren't really in place. If you didn't want to play with somebody, it often entailed almost spammy deployments of superweapons usually referred to as "Ignore Cannons." Some folks attempted to use dice systems or more rigid game engines for their threads, but back then it was still largely the semi-consensual freeform style seen today. Arguably, the formal-rules crowd eventually evolved into what today is NS Sports, as sports RPing tends to be much more formally organized.

3) Not sure if it was the first, probably simply one of the first, but in Ye Olde Dayes Menelmacar and Melkor Unchained were one of the first big military rivalries, which ended up growing to include the Triumvirate of Yut alliance and several of Melk's regionmates from Arda. It was such a big deal that OOCly both sides had agreed to what we colloquially called the "Anti-Bitchfest Accord" that the two factions would never actually engage in full on warfare between the two alliances, simply because there was enough variation of personalities and tech levels that any such warfare would likely blowup into a huge OOC bitchfest of arguing over what was believable/fair/etc. It predates my joining, but the Amerigan Slave War was supposedly a pretty big deal as well, possibly also where the early NS meme of "Amerigo is a land of contrast" got started.

4) While I don't think any of us can easily dig up what the first issue submission was, the first issue actually added to the game that wasn't Max-authored is #31 "Get Efficient, Private Sector Tells Nature" which was submitted and written by user Manticorp Groundforces in July 2003.

Cool, thanks for the info! It’s neat that our gloriously messy RP traditions actually were community created... I was wondering about how it all got started because NS was one of the first places I actually too part in role play on, and I am interested in how the hobby has evolved on and offline. I’m also into classic role playing systems, I run a group that uses the old Fantasy Trip system from the 1980s.

I’ve run into that Amerigo meme before, it’s interesting to learn its backstory. When was the Slaver War?

I’ve always wondered, what features did NS2 have/promise compared to NS back in the day, and NS nowadays? I’ve heard tell there was a feature for declaring war...

From what I've heard about NS2, it was an evil abomination, or something like that. I think you had to pay for everything, and Jolt refused to follow Max Barry's specs. Reppy or Unibot could tell you more.

[Unibot III]

Cool, thanks for the info! It’s neat that our gloriously messy RP traditions actually were community created... I was wondering about how it all got started because NS was one of the first places I actually too part in role play on, and I am interested in how the hobby has evolved on and offline. I’m also into classic role playing systems, I run a group that uses the old Fantasy Trip system from the 1980s.

I’ve run into that Amerigo meme before, it’s interesting to learn its backstory. When was the Slaver War?

I’ve always wondered, what features did NS2 have/promise compared to NS back in the day, and NS nowadays? I’ve heard tell there was a feature for declaring war...

From what I've heard about NS2, it was an evil abomination, or something like that. I think you had to pay for everything, and Jolt refused to follow Max Barry's specs. Reppy or Unibot could tell you more.

Exactly right. It was a steaming pile of garbage. The only good thing was the cubist artwork.

There were no regions, for one thing, or customized flags (without a fee) - instead you were founded randomly in numbered "worlds" that you couldn't move between. So you couldn't play with your friends if they were founded in a different world from you. It was asinine and it deeply misunderstood what made NationStates a great game.

He probably formed a base region of sorts. I suspect "the rogue region of E 2." His invader group seems to be called E2. No idea what it means. Maybe it's an outside game or forum name?

Maybe he was based in London's 'E2' postal district? This consists of

Bethnal Green district: Bethnal Green, Haggerston, Hoxton (part), Shoreditch (part), Cambridge Heath, Globe Town (part), Shoreditch (part)

which is only just outside the old 'City of London'...

I've been! That's an interesting theory. Especially given Sagar's flag is the English flag.

Also his associaties have English-sounding puppets:

• Post man pat - named after the English children's character.
• Edwin Snipe - English name. A character in an English movie that probably came out that month.
• The Granny Basher - Strictly English term.
• Fat ginger bread men's motto is an English football chant: "Who Ate All the Pies?"
• Tom Molloy's animal is an English pro-wrestler.

So yeah... I think in retrospective it's quite obvious given these clues and the abundance of English flags that Sagar and his band of invaders were probably English. Very English. And I like the 'E2' = Postal District theory. I also think that the Rogue Region of E 2 seems like their base HQ, given many of Sagar's invaders use "Rogue Nation" as their pretitle.

[Reploid Productions]

I’ve always wondered, what features did NS2 have/promise compared to NS back in the day, and NS nowadays? I’ve heard tell there was a feature for declaring war...

Actually answered this one (well, linked to a bunch of previous instances of Reppy Rants About The Dumpster Fire That Was NS2, anyway) here: viewtopic.php?p=20836469#p20836469

[Jar Wattinree]

Actually answered this one (well, linked to a bunch of previous instances of Reppy Rants About The Dumpster Fire That Was NS2, anyway) here: viewtopic.php?p=20836469#p20836469

That was enlightening. Compared to what we have now, NS2 seems a poor substitute. The R/D game more than makes up for the lack of a war mechanic (which couldn't work anyway because of 30 billion pop nations...) and there's the WA.