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Would you compromise your ideology for survival?

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Would you compromise your ideology to join a tribe if doing so gave you the best chance of survival?

No, I would survive some other way or if necessary, or if necessary, die with my integrity.
38
21%
Yes, but only if my survival depended on it (meaning other means were unworkable for some reason)
33
18%
No, every society needs dissenters, and if that reduces my personal survival chances, so be it.
14
8%
Yes, but I'd be like a sleeper agent for the opposition, waiting for my chance to operate against the local tribe from the inside.
34
19%
Yes, survival is my ideology.
16
9%
No, it wouldn't be worth surviving with people I find ideologically poopy.
6
3%
Yes, and I would rise in power via my effectiveness and work to change the tribe.
28
15%
No, I would take on their whole tribe for my ideology, I don't care what the chances are.
14
8%
 
Total votes : 183

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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:31 pm

Yagon wrote:
I wonder if a Baptist person faced with the option of having to join another Christian Group (Mormon or whatever, or vice versa) would be willing, since "well, its still about Christ" kind of thing. I imagine it could go either way based on the individual, and certainly in historical examples where the schism was between Christians, they still warred pretty hard (as have schisms within other religions, I would think).

But if it were an individual having to decide whether to modify their Christianity to that of the dominant group to survive, it might be an interesting deliberation.


In history this has occurred, however it was Roman Catholics merging with the Roman Orthodox. Where the Orthodoxy from Byzantine merged into the Catholic Church or Vatican Church depending the preference named.
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:32 pm

Yagon wrote:
Principality of the Raix wrote:
Well now, that is like mixing dogs and wolves together in some aspect. Mind you, they won't tear each other apart. However the belief system would be a mix, however i imagine they would commute around each other and thus worship in their own circles.


I wonder if a Baptist person faced with the option of having to join another Christian Group (Mormon or whatever, or vice versa) would be willing, since "well, its still about Christ" kind of thing. I imagine it could go either way based on the individual, and certainly in historical examples where the schism was between Christians, they still warred pretty hard (as have schisms within other religions, I would think).

But if it were an individual having to decide whether to modify their Christianity to that of the dominant group to survive, it might be an interesting deliberation.


As a protestant Christian I don't consider Mormons to be 'close'. They are, IMO, heretical apostates who blaspheme as a part of their worship.
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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:34 pm

Telconi wrote:As a protestant Christian I don't consider Mormons to be 'close'. They are, IMO, heretical apostates who blaspheme as a part of their worship.


Holy shit. Fair enough. Do you feel any hostility to them for blaspheming your God?

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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:34 pm

Telconi wrote:
Yagon wrote:
I wonder if a Baptist person faced with the option of having to join another Christian Group (Mormon or whatever, or vice versa) would be willing, since "well, its still about Christ" kind of thing. I imagine it could go either way based on the individual, and certainly in historical examples where the schism was between Christians, they still warred pretty hard (as have schisms within other religions, I would think).

But if it were an individual having to decide whether to modify their Christianity to that of the dominant group to survive, it might be an interesting deliberation.


As a protestant Christian I don't consider Mormons to be 'close'. They are, IMO, heretical apostates who blaspheme as a part of their worship.

Thus why i say as I stated, when I was raised Orthodox christian myself and see what Catholics do as bogus to some extent in their belief. However, I prefer to try to distant myself from how I was raised as well.
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I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
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Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:35 pm

Yagon wrote:
Telconi wrote:As a protestant Christian I don't consider Mormons to be 'close'. They are, IMO, heretical apostates who blaspheme as a part of their worship.


Holy shit. Fair enough. Do you feel any hostility to them for blaspheming your God?


Yes. I would sooner conform to Islam than to Mormonism.
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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:35 pm

Telconi wrote:
Yagon wrote:
Holy shit. Fair enough. Do you feel any hostility to them for blaspheming your God?


Yes. I would sooner conform to Islam than to Mormonism.

:rofl: That's saying something.
Prince Hildehrand, Principality of the Raix;Technocratic Allied States President.
Technocratic Forum
I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
Internationalism score: -83%
Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

Pro: Pro-Life, Limited Government, 2nd Amendment, 1st Amendment.
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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:36 pm

Telconi wrote:
Yagon wrote:
Holy shit. Fair enough. Do you feel any hostility to them for blaspheming your God?


Yes. I would sooner conform to Islam than to Mormonism.


Would you be willing to live and work with them? (Let's assume they were willing to not try to force you to convert)

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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:36 pm

Yagon wrote:
Albrenia wrote:Being an Atheist, to me dead means you're probably just dead, so the afterlife doesn't really come into the equation. On the other hand, I'd be much more willing to fight to the death to protect my loved ones, or to compromise to ensure their survival.

I guess that could be considered a weakness in my strength of character, but if it keeps my loved ones out of harm's way, I can accept that.


Would you fight to protect people you didn't know? (Suppose the above sub-premise where Gauzo is leading a fight to protect 300 immigrants of an out-group that the dominant tribe wants to kill).

Would you fight for them?


Yeah, I'd fight to protect a group of people from being murdered. Even if I was unable to put up violent resistance, I'd at least try to offer them shelter, supplies and aid.

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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:38 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Yagon wrote:
Would you fight to protect people you didn't know? (Suppose the above sub-premise where Gauzo is leading a fight to protect 300 immigrants of an out-group that the dominant tribe wants to kill).

Would you fight for them?


Yeah, I'd fight to protect a group of people from being murdered. Even if I was unable to put up violent resistance, I'd at least try to offer them shelter, supplies and aid.

Least I got to say, ya chose to fight for them in some mannerism. :)
Prince Hildehrand, Principality of the Raix;Technocratic Allied States President.
Technocratic Forum
I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
Internationalism score: -83%
Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

Pro: Pro-Life, Limited Government, 2nd Amendment, 1st Amendment.
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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:38 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Yeah, I'd fight to protect a group of people from being murdered. Even if I was unable to put up violent resistance, I'd at least try to offer them shelter, supplies and aid.


Seems reasonable.

In the branch of the hypothetical with Gauzo leading a first strike against the Dominant Tribe before they can hit the 300 migrants, would you participate in that first strike?

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:40 pm

Yagon wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Yes. I would sooner conform to Islam than to Mormonism.


Would you be willing to live and work with them? (Let's assume they were willing to not try to force you to convert)


I do that right now. So long as they are quiet about it I can tolerate them. But they'll get nothing but contempt if they try to proselytize.
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"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:40 pm

Yagon wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
Yeah, I'd fight to protect a group of people from being murdered. Even if I was unable to put up violent resistance, I'd at least try to offer them shelter, supplies and aid.


Seems reasonable.

In the branch of the hypothetical with Gauzo leading a first strike against the Dominant Tribe before they can hit the 300 migrants, would you participate in that first strike?

If I get to blow things up, not including myself. I may volunteer to help. Otherwise, as I said I would remain outside of the conflict. :lol2:
Prince Hildehrand, Principality of the Raix;Technocratic Allied States President.
Technocratic Forum
I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
Internationalism score: -83%
Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

Pro: Pro-Life, Limited Government, 2nd Amendment, 1st Amendment.
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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:42 pm

Telconi wrote:
Yagon wrote:
Would you be willing to live and work with them? (Let's assume they were willing to not try to force you to convert)


I do that right now. So long as they are quiet about it I can tolerate them. But they'll get nothing but contempt if they try to proselytize.


What would count as proselytizing? Suppose they sang hymns or something as they went through town, but not more audibly than normal conversational voice. Or they held frequent meetings in the town square but you were not required to attend. (Meaning, it was evident around you, not exactly "quiet", but at a volume you could tune out). Would that work?

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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:43 pm

Yagon wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
Yeah, I'd fight to protect a group of people from being murdered. Even if I was unable to put up violent resistance, I'd at least try to offer them shelter, supplies and aid.


Seems reasonable.

In the branch of the hypothetical with Gauzo leading a first strike against the Dominant Tribe before they can hit the 300 migrants, would you participate in that first strike?


Eh, I'm a bit of a peace-loving hippy at heart, so I'd avoid first strikes unless there was absolutely no other choice. In that case, I'd probably join in but I'd feel shit for doing it anyway.

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:43 pm

Principality of the Raix wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Yes. I would sooner conform to Islam than to Mormonism.

:rofl: That's saying something.


While I consider Muslims and Jews incorrect, they do worship God in their own way, and I do not believe they commit culpable heresy.
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:45 pm

Double post...
Last edited by Telconi on Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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ANTI:
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"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:46 pm

Yagon wrote:
Telconi wrote:
I do that right now. So long as they are quiet about it I can tolerate them. But they'll get nothing but contempt if they try to proselytize.


What would count as proselytizing? Suppose they sang hymns or something as they went through town, but not more audibly than normal conversational voice. Or they held frequent meetings in the town square but you were not required to attend. (Meaning, it was evident around you, not exactly "quiet", but at a volume you could tune out). Would that work?


That's fine, proselytizing would be direct attempts to convert me, or to distribute unwanted literature. Mormons do it all the time, and while I'm not pareticular lyrics hostile I make it abundantly clear that I hold disdain for their heresy.
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PRO:
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ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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Omakhandia
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Postby Omakhandia » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:47 pm

At some point in their lives, everyone must make a choice between what is right and what works. And everyone chooses the latter, whether they know it or not.
Don't copy+paste this into your signature. Come up with something original. Be an individual.

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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:50 pm

Omakhandia wrote:At some point in their lives, everyone must make a choice between what is right and what works. And everyone chooses the latter, whether they know it or not.

That's true, however you also have those few people who will actually do what is right overall. Vast majority will go with what works overall, that's true. But there is always those few.
Prince Hildehrand, Principality of the Raix;Technocratic Allied States President.
Technocratic Forum
I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
Internationalism score: -83%
Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

Pro: Pro-Life, Limited Government, 2nd Amendment, 1st Amendment.
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Cetacea
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Postby Cetacea » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:55 pm

heh, this sounds exactly like being an indigenous minority living in a colonised country today.
making compromises for survival has become something of an everyday thing in many communities:)

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Gaozu
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Postby Gaozu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:57 pm

Cetacea wrote:heh, this sounds exactly like being an indigenous minority living in a colonised country today.
making compromises for survival has become something of an everyday thing in many communities:)


Yeah it sucks, I know it's a common line but we should be past that by now. Waaaaaay past that.
I don't have any energy for sig creation rn, I'll do it later. ;_;

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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:57 pm

Cetacea wrote:heh, this sounds exactly like being an indigenous minority living in a colonised country today.
making compromises for survival has become something of an everyday thing in many communities:)

I think that's the point of it in a mannerism... :meh:
Prince Hildehrand, Principality of the Raix;Technocratic Allied States President.
Technocratic Forum
I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
Internationalism score: -83%
Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

Pro: Pro-Life, Limited Government, 2nd Amendment, 1st Amendment.
Con: Pro-Choice, Communism, Anarchism, Totalitarianism.

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The Alexanderians
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Postby The Alexanderians » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:45 pm

What if your ideology IS survival?
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:21 am

Yagon wrote:Suppose you lived in some ancient land that had dominated by a powerful empire. The empire is in its dissolution cycle and is beginning to come apart, likely with some conflict and disruptive changes in trade, infrastructure, etc. It will be a difficult period, and the unifying/stabilizing effects of the empire will be suddenly withdrawn.

Suppose you are not in a position to leave, and at the time of the disruption you are living in an area where the dominant majority (lets say 80%) are racially/culturally/religiously unified but in a way that contrasts sharply with your personal ideology.

For the sake of argument, suppose that your chances of survival are best served by having strong ties to the local populace, who are of a particularly tribal mentality. Your physical appearance and mannerisms mark you as somewhat of an outsider, but are sufficiently "passable" to the locals that if you practice their religion and broadcast an alignment with their ideology, you are likely to be "accepted" as one of their tribe, increasing your likelihood to survive, although you would have to at least outwardly and in practice embrace ideologies you find odious.

(For the purposes of the exercise, imagine not joining the local "tribe" substantially reduces your chances of survival to almost nil.)

Would you join them?


I'd pay lip service and act secretly against them. Plenty of options, ranging from sabotage so to undermine the tribe's elders' image, to subtle propaganda, and to outright assassination of a tribe's leader, and blaming it on another leader.
Then, at the right moment, a revolt will happen. And I will be seen as the new leader who can appease both sides, being a bit of an "outsider".
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