The Grey Wardens: Warden-Lieutenant Eshialand

[Shizensky Alpha]

That is of course unless you need the key presses to be competitive during update.

Speaking for myself, I couldn't do it without keypress assistance. I am admittedly a fringe case, though.

Is TBH's aversion to technology rooted in Predator? As an outsider it feels like a heavy swing away to avoid another Predator, where I feel like you guys are making a conscious decision to limit yourselves for the wrong reasons. I don't ask to be snarky or whatever, I'm genuinely curious. It's something we sort of started talking about during the Expo but that wasn't really an appropriate place for that talk.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

That is of course unless you need the key presses to be competitive during update.

Speaking for myself, I couldn't do it without keypress assistance. I am admittedly a fringe case, though.

Is TBH's aversion to technology rooted in Predator? As an outsider it feels like a heavy swing away to avoid another Predator, where I feel like you guys are making a conscious decision to limit yourselves for the wrong reasons. I don't ask to be snarky or whatever, I'm genuinely curious. It's something we sort of started talking about during the Expo but that wasn't really an appropriate place for that talk.

As discussed peripherally there, it also includes taking to heed requests from senior staff to reduce reliance on tools in GP/change the game to push that if necessary, and a general ideology of only automating out unskilled busywork/not altering anything that's an expression of skill. The latter is the "it's no fun if you simplify it to hell for a bit of a competitive edge" line of thought. The former is a pragmatic one - we're tired of Admin introducing things like ejection and suppression rate limits that end up being slower than a well trained person could manually executing things in the name of combatting tool use in those areas. No tool use, no changes needed to combat tool use, no restrictions that ultimately set things back even further than good manual. Oh, and reliance on technology would also make our folks less versatile and adaptable - we have a very great capacity to adapt to changing situations/new game elements/etc as well as any particular tool we do use breaking for a time, because the core skills are common and commonly practiced knowledge.

That's an overview of some of the points. I'd think we all have an interest in the former at least. So far, limits added to combat tool use have largely worn worse for us. In the future, things could be the other way.

Your mileage on which raiders put weight on which reasons may vary. For example, I know a good number of folks who may not necessarily be thinking about predator/admin changes, and may focus mostly on the idea that GP battles should be about unenhanced skill. Others have different primary concerns. The end result is a common consensus that all we need is something to make digging through the dumps less painful, and a few baby scripts that just do shit like turn URL's in BBCode.

[Shizensky Alpha]

The former is a pragmatic one - we're tired of Admin introducing things like ejection and suppression rate limits that end up being slower than a well trained person could manually executing things in the name of combatting tool use in those areas. No tool use, no changes needed to combat tool use, no restrictions that ultimately set things back even further than good manual.

This makes some sense. I feel like there's been a back and forth of admin saying "Hey guys, here's a thing you can do with code, but do it within these rules" and the coders responding in ways admin didn't think. So why bother pushing the envelope if the envelope's just going to get smaller?

The latter is the "it's no fun if you simplify it to hell for a bit of a competitive edge" line of thought.

Is this why it seems like we're looked down on for using Breeze? Today isn't the first case where someone has tried to call us out for using tools. I get the feeling people think Breeze is doing a lot more than it really is.

Even with the increased capability we get from a tool like Breeze, it's only narrowing the gap a bit. The advantages inherent to raiding will always keep the playing field from being level. Just look at this last report - we'll get below 50% and it's still a good night. Even if our whole team is on point it's not going to mean much against solid triggers. If anything's coming from it it might be that we're forcing tighter triggers and more misses, but my nagging to add those to the reports falls on deaf ears.

This goes back to the earlier discussion too I suppose. The talent in R/D is about a lot more than clicking the right buttons. We're not in the old days where a commander can spot a raid and post the orders. When we chase we count on all of our people being focused, attentive, and capable to react and make a decision within seconds. It's clear on our side that lowering the physical requirements hasn't turned the chase on top of itself, we've still got a fair number of folks who struggle to chase in time to update in-region.

In my experience, a raid leader is the only one who really needs to know what's going on, everybody else gets enough notice for the next target that they can hover over the move button until a command is given. Keyboards shortcuts or not, this seems significantly less demanding than our standard procedures.

It's hard to get on this topic without it starting to sound like a pissing contest. That's not what I'm trying to get at here. I think it's generally accepted that the average raider's work is easier than the average defender's, but the disconnect seems to be how easy you guys think Breeze makes our jobs.

So far, limits added to combat tool use have largely worn worse for us. In the future, things could be the other way.

One factor is probably that you guys don't benefit from a lot of the tools we use. Knowing where to go and when to go are your biggest concerns. Helpers for moves and endos aren't going to help raiders a ton. Since the tools that help you out the most would be removing a lot of the decision making, I can see why you might feel that the skill is being removed.

edit: That turned into a longer post than I thought it would.

[Vincent Drake]

The 800 pound elephant in the room is, and I said this during the expo, that manual chasing has a physical limit around 3s before it becomes literally impossible to do it any faster. Raider triggers, however, can get tighter than 3s (albeit with increased miss risk). You can go for 2s, 1s, 0s or end up with 2s, 1s, or 0s and manual chasing has a 0% chance of stopping those. AND, you can decrease your switching interval until the time it takes to switch and cross and doss manually physically exceeds the interval. That way, it doesn't even matter what the trigger length is, if chasers literally do not have time to catch up. That kind of chase sucks, gets defenders to quit the game, and ensures easy tag wins. Thanks, but no thanks.

Do you really think it's fair that raids can be made literally undefendable? Do you think the admins intended to have undefendable raiding as a game mechanic? My philosophy is that no move should be 100% undefendable, and that goal can be realized when Breeze++ is finished. Again, as said in the expo, Breeze++ plugs a hole in the game's balance, it doesn't give us an advantage, it removes an unfair disadvantage to better level the playing field.

We still make all of our recruits start out chasing manually, so they understand the full process. Manual chasing is how I learned how broken the trigger vs chaser game is and why I had to make that script. Unless the game itself changes, it's just not possible to contest anything faster than 3s with manual. It's literally not possible.

it also includes taking to heed requests from senior staff to reduce reliance on tools in GP/change the game to push that if necessary, and a general ideology of only automating out unskilled busywork/not altering anything that's an expression of skill.

Breeze++ doesn't automate anything.

The end result is a common consensus that all we need is something to make digging through the dumps less painful, and a few baby scripts that just do shit like turn URL's in BBCode.

By that definition, Breeze++ is quite a baby script. All it does is map buttons and URLs to keys.

As you can see from tonight's chase times, it has obvious limits - the user. You still have to be up, crossed, dossed, and paying attention just to get the chance at a fast move. I am the last one into a region if the above required steps are not done in time as the raiders move.

That open invite remains on the table. Anyone who'd like to chase with us and see just how difficult it really is, is welcome to.

[Warden Roavin]

(Credit: Shizensky)

Team Libcord The evil script-using GCR subversives	Team Lily The evil script-using raider traitors
Defenses the_united_kingdom_of_geektopia bayou_nepacane utopian_paradise the_blue_box the_northern_pacific_ocean the_feed_empire the_grand_community_of_nations the_united_nations_of_fort_kick_awesome kingdom_of_britain_and_ireland north_korelia democratic_republic_of_uzplebistan palatine umicssr meme_world people_for_people the_lost_city_of_night group_of_large_people imperius	Hits eurafrasia geese_bay foxistan major_league_of_nations northern_antarctica the_intergalactic_space_region the_diamond_kingdom pacific_tactical_military_federation international_liberty_coalition tyolo fascists_parade the_farm_1 mecklemburg
Wardens First Warden Roavin Chamberlain Vincent Drake Warden Shizensky Prime Warden Kingdom of Circle of Magi Friends Archuria (JTF)	Lily Liliarchy Friends United States of Vietnam (SPSF)

(Credit: Vincent Drake)

[Chingis]

Art at its finest.

[Altmoras]

Jeez don't get all the wins without me.

[Reploid Productions]

<snip for brevity>

Imagespam and cheap shots like this is why Moderation is really starting to lose patience with the culture of "GP snark" and has been talking off and on for easily over a year now about whether or not it's been allowed to go too long with too little restraint (as indicated by Fris here). The psuedo-IC personas some players adopt are NOT clearly differentiated from the actual OOC interpersonal nasty, and this muddied situation just enables toxic behavior to fester and nobody wins when that spills over and the hammers have to come out.

So let's all remember that no matter which orgs you're in, which (legal!) tools you use, which side of the wider R/D gameplay community you're in, this is still just a game and should be taken with the appropriate lack of seriousness.

*grumblemutterrabblerabblerabble*


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Tim-Opolis]

<snip for brevity>

[voice of mod]

Obviously not Roavin, but I'm struggling to see how Roavin's report is either Picspam or a red-text-loom-actionable Cheap Shot. Picspam is defined as "Posting of images, particularly repeated or multiple images, that do not serve to help the flow of the thread." However, the images within this report are specifically related to the flow of our Gameplay thread and frankly carry more content with them than the usually similarly-sized image banners posted on pretty much each and every battle report and foreign update made. Furthermore, I don't see how referencing The Black Hawks' continued criticism of The Grey Wardens' legal script usage is a cheap shot. This is a well-documented affair that has stretched numerous threads and forum sections by members of their military, and to joke that they view us as robots because of that seems honestly pretty lighthearted and a fair play remark given their attitudes towards the matter.

Don't get me wrong. There's times when both sides of the community get close to crossing the line, but I'm not seeing how this is anywhere close to that.

[Reploid Productions]

Not actually noting an unofficial on anybody's record, but the cheap dig on the subject of people who use tools/people who don't use tools is fairly obvious. And the image use is just flat out spammish. I'd rather throw an unofficial chilly-down and hopefully prevent escalation than to let it keep festering until somebody has to come wading in with the actual redtext. Especially given that the "banter" levels across GP are becoming a cause for concern to the team.

[Sovreignry]

Defenders and raiders have to love each other now. Got it.

[Tim-Opolis]

Not actually noting an unofficial on anybody's record, but the cheap dig on the subject of people who use tools/people who don't use tools is fairly obvious. And the image use is just flat out spammish. I'd rather throw an unofficial chilly-down and hopefully prevent escalation than to let it keep festering until somebody has to come wading in with the actual redtext. Especially given that the "banter" levels across GP are becoming a cause for concern to the team.

While it's certainly an easy shot to take, I disagree about how it's at all problematic considering the rhetoric thrown at us on the subject. You're the Mod, though. Regarding the images, would it be better if we sized them down next time or something similar? I make a fair bit of original content memes for our posts, so it'd help to know if it's more the size or the overusage that made this case a problem. I know it's all case-by-case, but it would help lay down a good guideline. Good to hear it's just a bit of coolant though and not an unofficial! We'll see how well the "Get R/D to play nice" goes, I guess. Given their off-site attitudes towards us, I'm not overly hopeful but I'll keep them fingers crossed.

Either way, thanks for replying! It helped clear stuff up a bit.

[Reploid Productions]

Defenders and raiders have to love each other now not act like complete jerks OOCly toward one another. Got it.

Fixed that for accuracy.

EDIT TO ADD:

While it's certainly an easy shot to take, I disagree about how it's at all problematic considering the rhetoric thrown at us on the subject. You're the Mod, though. Regarding the images, would it be better if we sized them down next time or something similar? I make a fair bit of original content memes for our posts, so it'd help to know if it's more the size or the overusage that made this case a problem. I know it's all case-by-case, but it would help lay down a good guideline. Good to hear it's just a bit of coolant though and not an unofficial! We'll see how well the "Get R/D to play nice" goes, I guess. Given their off-site attitudes towards us, I'm not overly hopeful but I'll keep them fingers crossed.

Either way, thanks for replying! It helped clear stuff up a bit.

Combination of size/number of images, really. A good rule of thumb for images (memes especially) is that if the size of the images takes up more space than the actual textual content of the post, it's probably a tad too much.

[Consular]

Not actually noting an unofficial on anybody's record

Wait so unofficial warnings go on records?

What about them makes them unofficial then?

[Sovreignry]

Not actually noting an unofficial on anybody's record

Wait so unofficial warnings go on records?

What about them makes them unofficial then?

They don't get counted until you do something really bad and then they get counted all at once.

[USS Monitor]

Not actually noting an unofficial on anybody's record

Wait so unofficial warnings go on records?

What about them makes them unofficial then?

They don't tick up your warning level, and a 2nd offense is likely to get an official warning rather than upgrading to a ban.

[Reploid Productions]

Not actually noting an unofficial on anybody's record

Wait so unofficial warnings go on records?

What about them makes them unofficial then?

They carry virtually no weight when looking at the user's overall warn history (for instance DEAT or DOS review,) they're a tool for determining whether or not somebody needs to get something official put on record and establishing a paper trail for problematic behavior patterns. They only really serve that "is this a borderline one-off or part of an actionable pattern?" toward getting an official warning, and have no real function beyond that.

EDIT: Dangit, ninja'd by the ironclad!

[Consular]

I'm not sure the word "unofficial" is appropriate really then. It implies something different to that.

Edit: Thanks for the answers though. And this is rather irrelevant so I'll stop.

[Tim-Opolis]

With all their spare time, the Wardens had a photoshoot. We all told Roavin he looked super cool.

It was a thrilling night out on patrol for the Wardens today, with a ridiculous amount of action at the start. As the Wardens dispersed on patrol with their good friends SPSF and JTF, the tensions were high. It was reported that too many cracked jokes could lead to darkspawn attacks or even divine intervention from The Maker. Fortunately, the tension was broken as a small group of darkspawn were reported invading a nearby village. The brave defenders leapt into battle, in various stages of inebriation, and charged in to ensure the village's safety. Safety was indeed assured! In fact, so much safety was ensured that, within twenty minutes of patrol, the foe turned their backs and headed back home. While causes for this early retreat are uncertain, it follows a regular pattern of early retreats by the enemy after being defeated by Wardens. It's very clear that increasing length of patrols to 45 minutes and 60 minutes was totally necessary.

After the darkspawn retreated back into the Deep Roads, there was nothing else to do so the Wardens decided to have a photoshoot with all the seized weapons the would-be conquerors left behind. All the boys got into the spirit, with lots of jokes cracked, fun to be had, and curses at the Violet Maker lobbed for making patrols last longer than they needed to be. All in all, the final tally for the night was as follows: The Black Hawks, out of eight attempts, were defeated four times, missed three times, and succeeded in capturing one sole target. This comes in at a 12.5% success rate for them (20% in regions they updated in), and a 50% success rate for us (80% in regions that people actually updated in).

---

Regions Defended

Kingdoms of the World
Alliance of United Communist Nations
Chat De Tortue Louve
Ad Natare Liberum

Regions Tagged

Yuno

Wardens Present

First Warden Roavin
High Constable Deadeye Jack
Chamberlain Vincent Drake
Commander Tim-Opolis
Warden Shizensky

Allies Present

JTF Archuria
JTF MomoCarlile
SPSF Offshade II
SPSF Nineteen Lights

---

In War, Victory.
In Peace, Vigilance.
In Death, Sacrifice.

[Altmoras Prime]

Wow, very good job, congratulations in assuring safety in regions where the founder has ceased to exist.

[The Noble Thatcherites]

Nice report Tim! As always, it is nice to know that the villages were safe. Roavin doesn't look half bad

[Reploid Productions]

<snip for brevity>

Guys, I know that you're just trying to keep with your Dragon Age theme and all, but nothing says you have to be 100% beholden to that canon, especially since "darkspawn" carries certain extremely unflattering connotations about the intelligence and other qualities of your opponents due to that same canon. While not anywhere near as baity as the 'hagfish' analogy I yelled at TBH about yesterday, there are plenty of other ways to describe the "forces of darkness/evil/Raideron/etc" that would still fit in well enough with your theme that don't carry that loaded context. Limiting the usage of "darkspawn" to raid reports is a good start, but given the overall context of R/D gameplay, it's still on the baity side, especially since there are phrases and terms you can use that don't have that problem.
Damnit, every time I read "darkspawn/shadowspawn" I still think Trollocs and Myrddraal because I read the Wheel of Time books but never got around to playing Dragon Age.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[G-Tech Corporation]

Hmm. Perhaps "darkfriends"?

Trollocs is tempting, but I think it might get shot down pretty quick, what with the "raiding is not trolling/griefing!" opinion folks are adamant about.

[Tim-Opolis]

<snip for brevity>

Guys, I know that you're just trying to keep with your Dragon Age theme and all, but nothing says you have to be 100% beholden to that canon, especially since "darkspawn" carries certain extremely unflattering connotations about the intelligence and other qualities of your opponents due to that same canon. While not anywhere near as baity as the 'hagfish' analogy I yelled at TBH about yesterday, there are plenty of other ways to describe the "forces of darkness/evil/Raideron/etc" that would still fit in well enough with your theme that don't carry that loaded context. Limiting the usage of "darkspawn" to raid reports is a good start, but given the overall context of R/D gameplay, it's still on the baity side, especially since there are phrases and terms you can use that don't have that problem.
Damnit, every time I read "darkspawn/shadowspawn" I still think Trollocs and Myrddraal because I read the Wheel of Time books but never got around to playing Dragon Age.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

Copy that.

Does this mean we'll finally see a similar crackdown on the terms fenda and fendascum as well? Fenda exists as a completely derogatory term, coined by a long-retired raider to characterize disingenuous defenders who only pretended to defend. Its continued propagation in the raider community exists solely as a slur against defenders, and is clearly even further offensive when the tagline of "scum" is added onto it - as it frequently is. While I personally don't think either fenda or darkspawn should be actionable, I don't see how it would be fair to set a double standard in which one slur is excused but another term classified as a slur isn't. Furthermore, does this mean we should expect terms such as 'barbarians' from The Roman Empire to be banned, as well as anything else more creative than "raider" and "defender"? We're an overly-polarized subsection of Gameplay and it's fair to say that either side can and will play a victim card on any new terms if just a few posts of "I actually never liked it" are all that it takes to get them banned.

Given that the Darkspawn are literally the entire purpose of the Wardens' existence, I'd also argue that it compromises our entire canon rather than "not adhering 100% to canon". The sole purpose of the Order canonically is to fight the darkspawn that encroach on Thedas. Should we expect any other canonical terms which paint someone in a negative light will be banned too? By no means am I on an anti-Moderator bandwagon, but this really seems like overmoderation which is going to simply lead to more off-site toxicity and less creative on-site rhetoric.

[Deadeye Jack]

I mean if this is what it has come to that we can't use the term "darkspawn" anymore then I plan to comply, but I have to say I feel like having a themed fantasy military is a little pointless then. I can't think of a time when we ever used the term to imply any of the connotations you talk about Reppy.