Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Nordengrund]

What are your thoughts on libertarianism?

I have mixed feelings about it as an ideology. I'm okay with same sex marriage and drugs and the like being legal, and I think it is really none of my business, but at the same time I don't know if full libertarianism like that espoused by the Libertarian Party can actually work.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

What are your thoughts on libertarianism?

I have mixed feelings about it as an ideology. I'm okay with same sex marriage and drugs and the like being legal, and I think it is really none of my business, but at the same time I don't know if full libertarianism like that espoused by the Libertarian Party can actually work.

Personally, I see certain flavors of Libertarianism (in particular Randian Libertarianism) as diametrically opposed to Christianity.

Because it promotes self-interest too much, whereas Christianity is more communitarian.

[Cote Acreole]

Happy Feast of the Transfiguration!



    Daniel 7:9-10, 13-14
As I watched:
Thrones were set up
and the Ancient One took his throne.
His clothing was bright as snow,
and the hair on his head as white as wool;
his throne was flames of fire,
with wheels of burning fire.
A surging stream of fire
flowed out from where he sat;
Thousands upon thousands were ministering to him,
and myriads upon myriads attended him.
The court was convened and the books were opened.
As the visions during the night continued, I saw:
One like a Son of man coming,
on the clouds of heaven;
When he reached the Ancient One
and was presented before him,
The one like a Son of man received dominion, glory, and kingship;
all peoples, nations, and languages serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that shall not be taken away,
his kingship shall not be destroyed.

R.The Lord is king, the Most High over all the earth.
The LORD is king; let the earth rejoice;
let the many islands be glad.
Clouds and darkness are round about him,
justice and judgment are the foundation of his throne.
R. The Lord is king, the Most High over all the earth.
The mountains melt like wax before the LORD,
before the LORD of all the earth.
The heavens proclaim his justice,
and all peoples see his glory.
R. The Lord is king, the Most High over all the earth.
Because you, O LORD, are the Most High over all the earth,
exalted far above all gods.
R. The Lord is king, the Most High over all the earth.

Luke 9:28-36
Jesus took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. And while he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him. They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions were weighed down with sleep; but since they had stayed awake, they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. Just as they were leaving him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah” —not knowing what he said. While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were terrified as they entered the cloud. Then from the cloud came a voice that said, “This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!” When the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and in those days told no one any of the things they had seen.

[Cote Acreole]

What are your thoughts and opinions on Islam?

The parable of the good Samaritan, who were enemies of the Jews; they claimed to have maintained orthodox jewish faith and blood lineage. Love and pray for your enemies, those who arent your enemies, and those who only appear so ect.

[Nordengrund]

What are your thoughts on libertarianism?

I have mixed feelings about it as an ideology. I'm okay with same sex marriage and drugs and the like being legal, and I think it is really none of my business, but at the same time I don't know if full libertarianism like that espoused by the Libertarian Party can actually work.

Personally, I see certain flavors of Libertarianism (in particular Randian Libertarianism) as diametrically opposed to Christianity.

Because it promotes self-interest too much, whereas Christianity is more communitarian.

I can agree there. I don't necessarily think that capitalism is incompatible with Christianity, at least when it comes to free markets, advocating personal responsibility and entrepreneurship, but I think what we have in the U.S. has gone way beyond that.

[Pasong Tirad]

Personally, I see certain flavors of Libertarianism (in particular Randian Libertarianism) as diametrically opposed to Christianity.

Because it promotes self-interest too much, whereas Christianity is more communitarian.

I can agree there. I don't necessarily think that capitalism is incompatible with Christianity, at least when it comes to free markets, advocating personal responsibility and entrepreneurship, but I think what we have in the U.S. has gone way beyond that.

"The idea that wealth is morally perilous has an impressive philosophical and religious pedigree. Ancient Stoic philosophers railed against greed and luxury, and Roman historians such as Tacitus lay many of the empire’s struggles at the feet of imperial avarice. Confucius lived an austere life. The Buddha famously left his opulent palace behind. And Jesus didn’t exactly go easy on the rich, either — think camels and needles, for starters.

The point is not necessarily that wealth is intrinsically and everywhere evil, but that it is dangerous — that it should be eyed with caution and suspicion, and definitely not pursued as an end in itself; that great riches pose great risks to their owners; and that societies are right to stigmatize the storing up of untold wealth. That’s why Aristotle, for instance, argued that wealth should be sought only for the sake of living virtuously — to manage a household, say, or to participate in the life of the polis. Here wealth is useful but not inherently good; indeed, Aristotle specifically warned that the accumulation of wealth for its own sake corrupts virtue instead of enabling it. For Hindus, working hard to earn money is a duty (dharma), but only when done through honest means and used for good ends. The function of money is not to satiate greed but to support oneself and one’s family. The Koran, too, warns against hoarding money and enjoins Muslims to disperse it to the needy.

Some contemporary voices join this ancient chorus, perhaps none more enthusiastically than Pope Francis. He’s proclaimed that unless wealth is used for the good of society, and above all for the good of the poor, it is an instrument “of corruption and death.” And Francis lives what he teaches: Despite access to some of the sweetest real estate imaginable — the palatial papal apartments are the sort of thing that President Trump’s gold-plated extravagance is a parody of — the pope bunks in a small suite in what is effectively the Vatican’s hostel. In his official state visit to Washington, he pulled up to the White House in a Fiat so sensible that a denizen of Northwest D.C. would be almost embarrassed to drive it. When Francis entered the Jesuit order 59 years ago, he took a vow of poverty, and he’s kept it."

Link: Being rich wrecks your soul. We used to know that.

[Cote Acreole]

In two weeks the search for a new church family begins since I'm gonna be too far from my old church and can't walk there anymore.

What are your options? Or what denominations are you interested in?

[Nordengrund]

I can agree there. I don't necessarily think that capitalism is incompatible with Christianity, at least when it comes to free markets, advocating personal responsibility and entrepreneurship, but I think what we have in the U.S. has gone way beyond that.

"The idea that wealth is morally perilous has an impressive philosophical and religious pedigree. Ancient Stoic philosophers railed against greed and luxury, and Roman historians such as Tacitus lay many of the empire’s struggles at the feet of imperial avarice. Confucius lived an austere life. The Buddha famously left his opulent palace behind. And Jesus didn’t exactly go easy on the rich, either — think camels and needles, for starters.

The point is not necessarily that wealth is intrinsically and everywhere evil, but that it is dangerous — that it should be eyed with caution and suspicion, and definitely not pursued as an end in itself; that great riches pose great risks to their owners; and that societies are right to stigmatize the storing up of untold wealth. That’s why Aristotle, for instance, argued that wealth should be sought only for the sake of living virtuously — to manage a household, say, or to participate in the life of the polis. Here wealth is useful but not inherently good; indeed, Aristotle specifically warned that the accumulation of wealth for its own sake corrupts virtue instead of enabling it. For Hindus, working hard to earn money is a duty (dharma), but only when done through honest means and used for good ends. The function of money is not to satiate greed but to support oneself and one’s family. The Koran, too, warns against hoarding money and enjoins Muslims to disperse it to the needy.

Some contemporary voices join this ancient chorus, perhaps none more enthusiastically than Pope Francis. He’s proclaimed that unless wealth is used for the good of society, and above all for the good of the poor, it is an instrument “of corruption and death.” And Francis lives what he teaches: Despite access to some of the sweetest real estate imaginable — the palatial papal apartments are the sort of thing that President Trump’s gold-plated extravagance is a parody of — the pope bunks in a small suite in what is effectively the Vatican’s hostel. In his official state visit to Washington, he pulled up to the White House in a Fiat so sensible that a denizen of Northwest D.C. would be almost embarrassed to drive it. When Francis entered the Jesuit order 59 years ago, he took a vow of poverty, and he’s kept it."

Link: Being rich wrecks your soul. We used to know that.

I'm not saying the selfishness is good. I just see nothing wrong with voluntary exchange and keeping what you earn if you work for it, but I do agree that American society is drowning in selfishness, greed, consumerism, etc. There are many capitalist Christians who do support welfare from the government but insist that it must be a hand up rather than a hand out and available only to those who want to contribute to society or are physically incapable of working.

[Cote Acreole]

By this logic, you shouldn't pray either, because Christ knows what you want.

>Priests only in it for the money
Priest's salaries are pretty small, some priests don't even get paid for it, which is why the Russian Church is creating an official rulebook for what professions a priest may not have.

The priest doesn't clean your sins, Christ does; the Priest is there to give you advice as you confess your sins, and also to convey the canonical teachings on the sins you have committed.

Praying is not the same as kissing an icon, with praying you speak to God, kissing an icon of Christ will get your lips full of bacteria (that's NOT my argument)

But that's a cool thing Russia did, our church should do it too..

Just for the record.
An Icon, in Orthodoxy, is a window. Is not Jesus' flesh and blood also an Icon? Yes, he is a window to the Father, yet none would call Mary Magdalene an idol worshipper for cleaning and kissing Jesus' foot. Isnt it clear that idol worship pertains to material things? Mary Magdalene surely wasnt cleaning and kissing the Soul or Spirit of God, but rather the icon, the window through which we see God.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Praying is not the same as kissing an icon, with praying you speak to God, kissing an icon of Christ will get your lips full of bacteria (that's NOT my argument)

But that's a cool thing Russia did, our church should do it too..

Just for the record.
An Icon, in Orthodoxy, is a window. Is not Jesus' flesh and blood also an Icon? Yes, he is a window to the Father, yet none would call Mary Magdalene an idol worshipper for cleaning and kissing Jesus' foot. Isnt it clear that idol worship pertains to material things? Mary Magdalene surely wasnt cleaning and kissing the Soul or Spirit of God, but rather the icon, the window through which we see God.

Christ wasn't an icon of God, He was God. Christ was of the same essence with the Father, and they are co-equal and co-enthroned. Just because Christ took on human flesh doesn't mean that he is any less God.

[Cote Acreole]

Just for the record.
An Icon, in Orthodoxy, is a window. Is not Jesus' flesh and blood also an Icon? Yes, he is a window to the Father, yet none would call Mary Magdalene an idol worshipper for cleaning and kissing Jesus' foot. Isnt it clear that idol worship pertains to material things? Mary Magdalene surely wasnt cleaning and kissing the Soul or Spirit of God, but rather the icon, the window through which we see God.

Christ wasn't an icon of God, He was God. Christ was of the same essence with the Father, and they are co-equal and co-enthroned. Just because Christ took on human flesh doesn't mean that he is any less God.

Did I say he was any less God?

John 14:9
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Colossians 3:9–10
9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Colossians 1:15
 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
 
Ephesians 2:18
18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
 
1 John 4:8–9
8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.

[Cote Acreole]

Sure, one must draw a line between the living God, body, blood, soul, and divinity, taken in unison and an icon of his image, but thats besides the point.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Sure, one must draw a line between the living God, body, blood, soul, and divinity, taken in unison and an icon of his image, but thats besides the point.

I just wanted to make clear your position. I'm sorry if you felt insulted, as that wasn't my intention.

[Cote Acreole]

Sure, one must draw a line between the living God, body, blood, soul, and divinity, taken in unison and an icon of his image, but thats besides the point.

I just wanted to make clear your position. I'm sorry if you felt insulted, as that wasn't my intention.

Don't apologize brother, there was no insult taken. I like to be understood, and yet prepared for heresy should it come.

[Salus Maior]

I just wanted to make clear your position. I'm sorry if you felt insulted, as that wasn't my intention.

Don't apologize brother, there was no insult taken. I like to be understood, and yet prepared for heresy should it come.

I haven't seen you around here before, welcome!

What denomination are you?

[Cote Acreole]

Don't apologize brother, there was no insult taken. I like to be understood, and yet prepared for heresy should it come.

I haven't seen you around here before, welcome!

What denomination are you?

I was Coulee Croche.

Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention that. Anyways, feels good to be back.

[Salus Maior]

I haven't seen you around here before, welcome!

What denomination are you?

I was Coulee Croche.

Oh, what happened to your original nation?

[Cote Acreole]

I was Coulee Croche.

Oh, what happened to your original nation?

CTE'd, wanted to start again with something new... and get rid of that annoying name. It didnt really glide well off the tongue

[Salus Maior]

Oh, what happened to your original nation?

CTE'd, wanted to start again with something new... and get rid of that annoying name. It didnt really glide well off the tongue

Gotcha xP from what I remember you're Catholic, right?

[Cote Acreole]

CTE'd, wanted to start again with something new... and get rid of that annoying name. It didnt really glide well off the tongue

Gotcha xP from what I remember you're Catholic, right?

Yeah, I had went through an Orthodox or Catholic phase, which lead to nowhere, and decided just to obey the Bishop above me.

And what of yourself? Werent you considering one of the Ancient Churches?

[Luminesa]

Happy Feast of the Transfiguration!

(Image)

    Daniel 7:9-10, 13-14
As I watched:
Thrones were set up
and the Ancient One took his throne.
His clothing was bright as snow,
and the hair on his head as white as wool;
his throne was flames of fire,
with wheels of burning fire.
A surging stream of fire
flowed out from where he sat;
Thousands upon thousands were ministering to him,
and myriads upon myriads attended him.
The court was convened and the books were opened.
As the visions during the night continued, I saw:
One like a Son of man coming,
on the clouds of heaven;
When he reached the Ancient One
and was presented before him,
The one like a Son of man received dominion, glory, and kingship;
all peoples, nations, and languages serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that shall not be taken away,
his kingship shall not be destroyed.

R.The Lord is king, the Most High over all the earth.
The LORD is king; let the earth rejoice;
let the many islands be glad.
Clouds and darkness are round about him,
justice and judgment are the foundation of his throne.
R. The Lord is king, the Most High over all the earth.
The mountains melt like wax before the LORD,
before the LORD of all the earth.
The heavens proclaim his justice,
and all peoples see his glory.
R. The Lord is king, the Most High over all the earth.
Because you, O LORD, are the Most High over all the earth,
exalted far above all gods.
R. The Lord is king, the Most High over all the earth.

Luke 9:28-36
Jesus took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. And while he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him. They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions were weighed down with sleep; but since they had stayed awake, they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. Just as they were leaving him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three dwellings, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah” —not knowing what he said. While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were terrified as they entered the cloud. Then from the cloud came a voice that said, “This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!” When the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and in those days told no one any of the things they had seen.

1.) HAI COULEE COUCHE!!!

2.) That is a beautiful icon.

3.) Anyone else agree that the Book of Daniel is one of the coolest books of the Bible?

[Constantinopolis]

Well, I've been very busy for the past couple of weeks, and not posting on NSG at all, but I'm not going to miss one of my scheduled posts on a Great Feast of the Orthodox Church! I see that Cote Acreole ninja'd me, too. So, quickly, before the day ends in all time zones, I'd like to mark the Great Feast that falls on August 6th...

The Transfiguration of Christ



“Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"
When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.
And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, "Get up, and do not be afraid."
And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead." ”
-- Matthew 17:1-9

The first time I read about the Transfiguration in the Bible, my impression was something along the lines of "well, that seemed important... but I have no idea what it meant". And I still think it's one of the most cryptic events in the Gospels, and certainly the hardest to understand among all the events that are celebrated as Great Feasts.

In order to understand it, we should first go back to the preceding chapter of the Gospel of St. Matthew (or the Gospel of St. Luke, which narrates the same events here), and see what Christ said before taking up those three Apostles with Him on the mountain. What was He taking about right before the Gospel says "six days later..." ? Well, the preceding chapter ends with these words:

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." -- Matthew 16:28

Some people (mostly Protestants) have interpreted these words as meaning that Jesus promised that the end of the world is coming within the lifetimes of some of those who were listening to Him at the time. But the Gospel writers place this promise immediately before the Transfiguration, and not by accident. As Saint Gregory Palamas explains, Christ isn't promising that some of those present will live to see the end of the world. He is promising that some of those present will live to see a "preview" of the Second Coming, a vision of the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. Those people were the Apostles Peter, James and John, and the vision was the Transfiguration.

Another important point regarding the Transfiguration is that here, just as at the Baptism of Christ, the fullness of the Trinity is revealed, and the voice of the Father is heard directly.

But while at His baptism, Christ acted in accordance with His human nature, and asked to be baptized just like any other human being, at the Transfiguration it is the divine nature of Christ that is revealed and takes center stage. He no longer looks or acts like any other human being, but instead shines like the sun, and His clothes "become as white as light". Christ therefore reveals Himself as God.

The choice of the three Apostles who accompanied Christ on the mountain and witnessed His Transfiguration is also very significant, because these were precisely the same three who would later be with Him in the garden of Gethsemane. There is a connection between the Transfiguration and the Resurrection of Christ. The light of the Transfiguration is the same as the light of the Resurrection - it is the Uncreated Light, which emanates from God and transforms all those who are in union with Him. What the three Apostles saw on that mountain was, basically, a brief preview of Heaven.

St. Gregory Palamas writes: "We believe that at the Transfiguration He manifested not some other sort of light, but only that which was concealed beneath His fleshly exterior. This Light was the Light of the Divine Nature, and as such, it was Uncreated and Divine. So also, in the teachings of the Fathers, Jesus Christ was transfigured on the Mount, not taking upon Himself something new nor being changed into something new, nor something which formerly He did not possess. Rather, it was to show His disciples that which He already was, opening their eyes and bringing them from blindness to sight. For do you not see that eyes that can perceive natural things would be blind to this Light?

Thus, this Light is not a light of the senses, and those contemplating it do not simply see with sensual eyes, but rather they are changed by the power of the Divine Spirit. They were transformed, and only in this way did they see the transformation taking place amidst the very assumption of our perishability, with the deification through union with the Word of God in place of this.

So also she who miraculously conceived and gave birth recognized that the One born of her is God Incarnate. So it was also for Simeon, who only received this Infant into his arms, and the aged Anna, coming out [from the Jerusalem Temple] for the Meeting, since the Divine Power illumined, as through a glass windowpane, giving light for those having pure eyes of heart."

Here are hymns for the occasion on YouTube:

Troparion of the Transfiguration in multiple languages
Troparion of the Transfiguration (in English, Byzantine melody)
Troparion of the Transfiguration (in English, different melody)
Troparion of the Transfiguration (in Arabic)
Troparion of the Transfiguration (also in Arabic)
Troparion of the Transfiguration (in Romanian)
Apolytikon of the Transfiguration (in Greek)

Troparion:

You were Transfigured on the Mount, O Christ God,
Revealing Your glory to Your disciples as far as they could bear it.
Let Your everlasting Light shine upon us sinners!
Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O Giver of Light, glory to You!

Kontakion:

On the Mountain You were Transfigured, O Christ God,
And Your disciples beheld Your glory as far as they could bear it;
So that when they would behold You crucified,
They would understand that Your suffering was voluntary,
And would proclaim to the world,
That You are truly the Radiance of the Father!

[Gim]

Oh, what happened to your original nation?

CTE'd, wanted to start again with something new... and get rid of that annoying name. It didnt really glide well off the tongue

Who were you?

[Traditional Conservative Hellas]

*Random thingy incoming*

You know what really saddens me? Has anyone notice how the majority of atheists believe in Christ after encountering Demons, Angels or Christ himself? Humans are sticked to normal, natural lives, they need to be shaken to wake up, WE need to be shaken to wake up, we stick to subjective actions all our lives, we will all be scared to death when we see Christ in the clouds, because we have never seen such a thing, I saw a white cross shining above a church across the mountain in my vacations, it wasn't so clear that it was a cross and I though it was Christ with a white robe, my heart frozen for 5 seconds, literally, I had a mini heart attack, we humans are weak weak beings, we are used to these natures of this world, we find anything unnatural "fake" or "not what it seems", we cannot stand the truth, and the truth is stranger than fiction..

AMEN!

[Thermodolia]

*Random thingy incoming*

You know what really saddens me? Has anyone notice how the majority of atheists believe in Christ after encountering Demons, Angels or Christ himself? Humans are sticked to normal, natural lives, they need to be shaken to wake up, WE need to be shaken to wake up, we stick to subjective actions all our lives, we will all be scared to death when we see Christ in the clouds, because we have never seen such a thing, I saw a white cross shining above a church across the mountain in my vacations, it wasn't so clear that it was a cross and I though it was Christ with a white robe, my heart frozen for 5 seconds, literally, I had a mini heart attack, we humans are weak weak beings, we are used to these natures of this world, we find anything unnatural "fake" or "not what it seems", we cannot stand the truth, and the truth is stranger than fiction..

AMEN!

Speak for yourself. I won't shit my pants if saw any of that because non of that exists nor can it harm me. Also I've never heard of an atheist becoming religious after seeing a paranormal being