Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Lady Scylla]

Been looking at zoroastrianism lately. Such an interesting religion!
It's really a shame it's all but died out in recent centuries.

What do you guys think about it?

C'mon now, what do you expect?

Zoroastrianism lacks the truth of the Gospel, so Zoroastrians are in considerable peril, come their judgement. They kind of have monotheism, so I guess that's a plus.

To them, they're perfectly fine.

[Hakons]

C'mon now, what do you expect?

Zoroastrianism lacks the truth of the Gospel, so Zoroastrians are in considerable peril, come their judgement. They kind of have monotheism, so I guess that's a plus.

To them, they're perfectly fine.

You think you're perfectly fine.

I was giving my opinion, as was asked

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Pray for London.

[Lady Scylla]

To them, they're perfectly fine.

You think you're perfectly fine.

I was giving my opinion, as was asked

Was there somewhere where I said you weren't allowed to share your opinion?

[Constantinopolis]

So, most time zones have moved into Sunday (June 4) by now, which is the 50th day after the Resurrection this year. That means we have reached the end of the Paschal season, and we celebrate another one of the Great Feasts of the Orthodox Church:

The Descent of the Holy Spirit
(also called Pentecost)



“When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they [the Apostles] were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.
Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?
And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?
Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
Cretans and Arabs – we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”
-- Acts of the Apostles 2:1-11

The Descent of the Holy Spirit, also called Pentecost (from the Greek word for "fifty", because it falls fifty days after Pascha/Easter/Passover), is one of the three most ancient Christian holidays or Great Feasts. It has been celebrated from the very beginning, from the very foundation of the Church. In fact, this is the Great Feast that marks the anniversary of precisely that event: the foundation of the Christian Church. This is the birthday of the Church.

Like the other Great Feasts that Christians have celebrated from the beginning, such as Easter (the New Passover), Pentecost is also the direct continuation of a Jewish holiday. It is the New Shavuot. The Jewish holiday of Shavuot was also called Pentecost by Greek-speaking Jews in ancient times, so this is another case of the Christian and the Jewish holiday sharing the exact same name in the original Greek of the New Testament, just like Pascha (Easter/Passover). The Old Pentecost, Shavuot, which falls fifty days after Passover, marks the day when God gave the Torah (the Law) to Moses and the people of Israel at Mount Sinai. It is therefore the anniversary of the event when the Jews became the Holy People of God. It is, in a sense, the birthday of the Old Israel.

Over a thousand years later, the New Pentecost, the Christian Pentecost, became the birthday of the New Israel - the Christian Church. Just as Moses had received the Law, the Apostles received the Holy Spirit (for we are no longer under a Law, but rather we are called to union with God; this is the New Covenant). The parallel between the Jewish and Christian holidays is very strong. In one, God gives us His commandments; in the other, God gives us Himself (in the person of the Holy Spirit), enabling us to enter into communion with Him. The Jewish Pentecost was a fulfillment of the Passover, because God led the Jews out of Egypt so that they may receive the Law. The Christian Pentecost, likewise, was a fulfillment of the Resurrection of Christ (the New Passover), because God is leading us out of death, out of hell, so that we may receive the Holy Spirit and enter into communion with Him. Christ is the New Moses, the Church is the New Israel, and the Holy Spirit is the New Torah.

So Pentecost is the beginning of a "New Age" of sorts, the age of the New Covenant and the renewal of creation, which is also the age of expectation until the Second Coming of Christ. In the Orthodox Church, the liturgical colour of Pentecost is green, the colour of life and renewal. The priest and other clergy wear green vestments, and the church building is decorated with branches and leaves - representing the fact that "Christ is the vine and we are the branches" of the Church (John 15:5). We are also reminded of our baptism and chrismation, when we received "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit", just as the Apostles did at the original Pentecost.

It is noteworthy that the Christian Church begins with the Apostles speaking in many different languages, and a crowd of people from all the corners of the known world each hearing the Apostles in his own language. This represents the international, inter-ethnic and universal character of the Church. No longer is the revelation of God dedicated in particular to a single ethnicity, as it was to the Jewish people in the Old Testament. No longer is any nation chosen and set apart from the others. Now, God reveals Himself to the entire world, to all people and to all nations - and the Apostles will later carry His Gospel to the ends of the Earth. God also reveals Himself in every language, and therefore makes Himself available to every culture. Christianity has no borders, and embraces all cultures.

Another thing to note is that, during the ten days between the Ascension and Pentecost, the Apostles are described as "continuing with one accord in prayer and supplication" (Acts 1:14), but after Pentecost another activity is mentioned: "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." (Acts 2:42) This new thing, the "breaking of bread", refers of course to the celebration of the Holy Eucharist. It was after Pentecost that the Apostles and the rest of the disciples began to celebrate the Holy Eucharist and to partake of the Body and Blood of Christ for the first time after the Last Supper. That is because it was through the Descent of the Holy Spirit, at Pentecost, that the Apostles received the priesthood of grace - which they later passed on to their successors, the bishops of the Church, and which continues through apostolic succession to the present day. It was the Descent of the Holy Spirit that made it possible for the Church to have bishops and priests, and therefore to celebrate all of the Holy Mysteries (of which the Eucharist is the most important).

Pentecost is also the Great Feast that completes the full revelation of the Holy Trinity to human beings. The Father and the Son had been revealed earlier, and now, at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit is revealed as well. For this reason, either Pentecost itself or the day right after it (depending on local tradition) is considered the Feast of the Holy Trinity, when churches named "Holy Trinity" celebrate their patronal feast day.

In addition, Pentecost is the day when kneeling and prostrations become part of our prayer life again, until next year's Pascha (there is no kneeling during the 50 days between Pascha and Pentecost).

Here are some examples of hymns for Orthodox Pentecost on YouTube:

Troparion for Pentecost in multiple languages
Troparion for Pentecost (in English)
Troparion and Prokeimenon for Pentecost (in English)
Troparion for Pentecost (in Georgian)
Troparion for Pentecost (in Greek)
Troparion for Pentecost (in Arabic and Greek)
Troparion for Pentecost (in Romanian)
Troparion for Pentecost (in Serbian)
Kontakion for Pentecost (in English)
The special antiphons for Pentecost (in Romanian)
Hymns from the Vespers of Pentecost (in Greek)

Troparion:

Blessed are You O Christ Our God,
Who have revealed the fishermen as most wise
By sending down upon them the Holy Spirit.
Through them You drew the world into Your net,
O Lover of Man, Glory to You!

Kontakion:

When the most High came down and confused the tongues,
He divided the nations.
But when he distributed the tongues of fire
He called all to unity.
Therefore, with one voice, we glorify the All-holy Spirit!

[Lady Scylla]

Constant, for the life of me, use a spoiler for fuck's sake. I could scroll through that a few times to reach Christ's Second Coming.

[Diopolis]

Here in Brazil and other lusophone nations, we celebrate Valentine's Day (June 13) with the same day of St. Anthony - the holy matchmaker, do you American Catholics also worship St. Anthony as a matchmaker?

Sort of.
It doesn't have the same cultural symbolism as it does in Brazil. Religiously, yes, St. Anthony is one of several saints a patron of those looking for a spouse(along with St. Valentine, St. Raphael, and a couple specific to one gender), but he's just one of several. Among American traditionalists and those leaning that direction, the tendency seems to be a stronger devotion to St. Raphael in that area, and St. Valentine for non-traditionalists. I don't know who Byzantines worship for that purpose.
And on a side note, it is entirely appropriate to refer to "worshipping" saints. Veneration is a degree of worship.

[Luminesa]

Constant, for the life of me, use a spoiler for fuck's sake. I could scroll through that a few times to reach Christ's Second Coming.

But he does all his little things like that!

[Constantinopolis]

Here in Brazil and other lusophone nations, we celebrate Valentine's Day (June 13) with the same day of St. Anthony - the holy matchmaker, do you American Catholics also worship St. Anthony as a matchmaker?

Sort of.
It doesn't have the same cultural symbolism as it does in Brazil. Religiously, yes, St. Anthony is one of several saints a patron of those looking for a spouse(along with St. Valentine, St. Raphael, and a couple specific to one gender), but he's just one of several. Among American traditionalists and those leaning that direction, the tendency seems to be a stronger devotion to St. Raphael in that area, and St. Valentine for non-traditionalists. I don't know who Byzantines worship for that purpose.

In the Orthodox Church, there is no specific saint that is generally called upon when looking for a spouse, or for help in finding romantic love. There are a number of local saints, and people also call upon their own personal patron saint, or the Theotokos, or pray directly to God for this purpose.

In my prayer book, the prayer to be said by a single person looking for a spouse is a prayer addressed to Christ.

As a general rule, the Orthodox Church does not really assign specific roles to specific saints. People pray to any saint for any purpose, and it's more common to pray to the saint whose name you bear (your patron saint), or to the saint whose name is borne by the person you are praying for, or to a saint whose relics you have visited on a pilgrimage, than to a saint associated with the thing you are asking for.

Having said that, there are a few saints who are known for doing a very specific thing in life, and they do tend to be called upon for help with that specific thing. But this is more of an exception rather than the rule. At least in my experience.

I do not personally pray to saints associated with the things I am asking for. I pray to my patron saint, to my wife's patron saint, and to saints whose life stories resonated with me for various reasons.

Constant, for the life of me, use a spoiler for fuck's sake. I could scroll through that a few times to reach Christ's Second Coming.

It's not any longer than a detailed debate post with lots of quotes.

[Nordengrund]

Constant, for the life of me, use a spoiler for fuck's sake. I could scroll through that a few times to reach Christ's Second Coming.

Thart's heresy, Scylla!

[Salus Maior]

Constant, for the life of me, use a spoiler for fuck's sake. I could scroll through that a few times to reach Christ's Second Coming.

No one else has a problem with it.

[The Princes of the Universe]

Constant, for the life of me, use a spoiler for fuck's sake. I could scroll through that a few times to reach Christ's Second Coming.

It's not any longer than a detailed debate post with lots of quotes.

I like your posts just the way you make them.

[Czechanada]

Constant, for the life of me, use a spoiler for fuck's sake. I could scroll through that a few times to reach Christ's Second Coming.

Why not just drag the scroll bar to quickly move through?

[The Sauganash Union]

What is a Presbyterian? A Presbyterian is a Baptist who likes to drink but doesn't have enough money to be Episcopalian.

And if an Episcopalian is a Roman Catholic who failed Latin, then a Methodist is an Episcopalian who failed in developing his stock portfolio.

[Secundus Imperium Romanum]

Thanks for the answers, guys, here in Brazil and Portugal when the women are single, they have seen the image of St Anthony upside down until he gives a "husband". This is greatly intensified in the June festivals, where it is celebrated in more rural regions and it is a feast day in St Anthony, St Peter and most important St John, which is the main date where there is a lot of celebration. We build fires in the streets, buy bombs, dance typical dances, and it lasts until one day after St. Peter's.

What I find funny is that even evangelical churches celebrate

[Hakons]

You think you're perfectly fine.

I was giving my opinion, as was asked

Was there somewhere where I said you weren't allowed to share your opinion?

Upon further review, no

[The Sauganash Union]

Did the Christian Discussion Thread attend religious schools or not?

I was actually raised Episcopalian (I became Presbyterian later in life), but the nearest Episcopalian school was a bit far away, so my parents sent me to Catholic schools all my life. Funnily enough, it was dealing with the Jesuits at my high school that really soured my opinion of the Catholic Church.

[The Blaatschapen]

Yes, twice.

Catholic primary school and Catholic secondary. Not that there was much choice. Also, the secondary was fairly meh about it. The primary was too, until in my last year only one person went for Confirmation, so the younger kids got bible lessons again.

[The Sauganash Union]

Yes, twice.

Catholic primary school and Catholic secondary. Not that there was much choice. Also, the secondary was fairly meh about it. The primary was too, until in my last year only one person went for Confirmation, so the younger kids got bible lessons again.

I didn't even get confirmed in my Episcopal church. By then, I was already drifting towards Presbyterianism.

[Dylar]

Did the Christian Discussion Thread attend religious schools or not?

I was actually raised Episcopalian (I became Presbyterian later in life), but the nearest Episcopalian school was a bit far away, so my parents sent me to Catholic schools all my life. Funnily enough, it was dealing with the Jesuits at my high school that really soured my opinion of the Catholic Church.

I didn't. I've been in public schools all my life...as a result I didn't know much about my faith except the Bible stories that we'd get taught at in Sunday school classes before Mass. Because of that, I didn't care much about my faith until I entered my Freshman year of high school, which is where things really started kicking...and in good time too, cause the next year is when I got Confirmed within the Church.

[Nordengrund]

Did the Christian Discussion Thread attend religious schools or not?

I was actually raised Episcopalian (I became Presbyterian later in life), but the nearest Episcopalian school was a bit far away, so my parents sent me to Catholic schools all my life. Funnily enough, it was dealing with the Jesuits at my high school that really soured my opinion of the Catholic Church.

I attended a couple. One was Southern Baptist and I was expelled from it for destruction of property during kindergarten.
The other one I attend for two years and it was affiliated with the 7th Day Adventists. I won't say I ever became SDA, but I did not come out of that school without accepting or at least being influenced by some of their theology.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Did the Christian Discussion Thread attend religious schools or not?

I was actually raised Episcopalian (I became Presbyterian later in life), but the nearest Episcopalian school was a bit far away, so my parents sent me to Catholic schools all my life. Funnily enough, it was dealing with the Jesuits at my high school that really soured my opinion of the Catholic Church.

I went, twice.

5 years to an evangelical school and one year (6th grade) to a Catholic school.

[Salus Maior]

I was homeschooled.

And yes I had friends.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I was homeschooled.

And yes I had friends.

That is a rather specific detail to point out

[The Princes of the Universe]

Public school from Kindergarten to my BA.