Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Khornatenreich]

whatever

point is that rifle caliber mgs were pretty common as armament of fighter planes in the '30s

Yo', Galla, what is the most singlehandedly "80s" GPMG ever?

[Myrist]

quick point of divergence, if you wouldn`t mind that is, most people stick with USMC like squads (12-13 men). For personal reasons, uneven numbers annoy me and don`t make logistical sense in my opinion, I was thinking of going the route of an eight men squad. giving the ability to split into two fire teams of four men each. In WWII squads were broken into assaulting, pinning, and maneuver elements. I am looking at making my military essentially modular while making the basic fire teams as efficient as possible in terms of firepower, mobility, and tactical flexibility. The basic layout would be two automatic riflemen in the squad, four riflemen, and then two grenadiers. The Grenadiers are usually the team leaders. Point of this lay out is so that the squad can bring the max amount of firepower that they can proficiently handle. Underlying idea of mine is that a small well equipped unit can be better led in comparison to a larger squad. This is also reflected in the platoon, the platoon will be 36 strong. This is including the HQ fire team, which consists of the Pl, radiomen, medic, and PltSgt. This may seem like it`s lacking the ability to combat vehicles and enemy armor, this is where the most complications can come in. The infantry arm is split into two services, the mechanized and light. While the eight men squad will still be in use in the light infantry it`ll be slightly different in loadout to reflect their nature of featherweight and rapid combat. Basic infantrymen use a 5.56mm, pushrod powered rifle. Automatic riflemen use a heavy free floated barrel, along the premise that while fully automatic is needed there are times where the fire team still needs to hit targets at 500m as accurately as the standard trooper can hit a 200m. This follows the recent adoption of the IAR 27 in the USMC, though this is being contemplated for general adoption instead of SAW/DMR use. I apologize for the rambling, i`ve been off and on active in many different nations through the year and on this fourm.

I'm interested as to where you heard the notion that "most people" use 13-man squads. Because IRL, "most" squads are much smaller (the US Army uses 9-man squads and they have a lot more squads than the USMC by simply virtue of being twice the size) and in NS most that I've seen tend to use the same US Army-style layout, which is a two-fireteam squad. So somewhere between 7-10 men or so. Although I know some of the hipsters like larger squads.

USMC squads are 13 men because they're composed of three four-man fireteams and the squad leader. This is also the reason why US Army squads have nine men, they have two four-man fireteams and a squad leader.

Your organization is very similar to a number of existing squad structures, but is perhaps closest to the British because they also have 8-man squads with two fireteams. But in the case of the British, one fireteam has a GPMG while the other has a sharpshooter in place of an extra rifleman (so each has a grenadier, auto rifleman with an LMG, team leader who serves as a rifleman, and either a GMPG or sharpshooter). The US Army's squad is similar but has a separate squad leader (the 9th man) and instead of a GPMG one rifleman is the designated anti-tank gunner who carries the AT4, or Javelin.

Which is why I would say your squads are really quite lightly equipped. The addition of a heavier machine gun as in the British model, an anti-armor gunner as in the US model, or a mortarman as in the French model would help bulk it up because fortified positions are very common and right now your squads are short on range and firepower to engage them. The anti-tank gunner in the US model isn't just for shooting at actual tanks. They spend most of their time shooting at bunkers and improvised infantry fighting positions.

Okay, well that leaves me off in a good place. I am interested in the 300/500m teams of the French military. As much as I like the idea of the mortar I might as well make it so my 2nd team carries an anti-tank weapon. AT4s are common but I like the Panzerfaust 3 due to its basic low weight and relatively small size. I see now that i did neglect my squad comp, I was planning for that to be my mechanized infantry squad comp. Which while it does help emphasize the reliance of the arms upon each other it leaves the infantry sorely lacking in dismount ops. Thinking of maybe moving to a 6.5mm round, while it does weigh a little more and modern ballistics improves the efficiency of the 5.56 it also improves the 6.5mm. I am thinking of keeping the IARs, like the idea of them and they seem well accepted among the USMC for their role. My conceptual love is that it has a higher auto rate than the standard rifles and yet retains the same accuracy allowing it to function as a DMR. I will have it so that 2 of the riflemen are designated as AT men carrying the PzF 3. Spread some rounds among the fireteam maybe one or two to each man. As the charges are about 25lbs a piece. I can see light mortars attached at the platoon level as an ad hoc squad, but at the squad level it seems redundant when two of the squad members have underslung launchers as it is. For light infatry my squad comp will probably be different, the 51mm would be a welcome addition though you never know. Planning to use Wiesels for my light infantry since they can be air deployed and act as light support and scouting that the Air Assault/Paras may lack. Looking into assembling Hunter/Killer teams for my air units, say for every light infantry company deployed there be one H/K squad consisting of 4 Wiesels. Accompanied by another troop of 120mm equipped units, ad then the last troop being armed with 20mm autocannon for recon/light infantry support. Mechanized infantry of course would have the greater advantage of already being attached to their vehicles, looking into modular designs like the boxer to find inspiration for IFVs/AFVs

[Puzikas]

whatever

point is that rifle caliber mgs were pretty common as armament of fighter planes in the '30s

Yo', Galla, what is the most singlehandedly "80s" GPMG ever?

HK21E

[Kassaran]

Y'know, I've always wondered if Puz is in Puz's profile picture... or if that's indeed some random dude.

[Theodosiya]

Random Green Men in Crimea, 2014. Seen the pic before. Maybe his distant relative.

[Khornatenreich]

Yo', Galla, what is the most singlehandedly "80s" GPMG ever?

HK21E

*Sniff*, so good.

[Gallia-]

whatever

point is that rifle caliber mgs were pretty common as armament of fighter planes in the '30s

Yo', Galla, what is the most singlehandedly "80s" GPMG ever?

m60

[Laywenrania]

What makes the MG-34 a GPMG compared to other LMGs like the DP?
"just" the ability to mount on a tripod and getting belt or drum fed?

[Kouralia]

What makes the MG-34 a GPMG compared to other LMGs like the DP?
"just" the ability to mount on a tripod and getting belt or drum fed?

Basically yeah. If it can be used for team-operated sustained fire as well as just as a light support weapon, it's a GPMG. If it's just for sustained fire as a crew operated weapon, it's an MMG. If it's just for single man usage as a light support weapon, it's an LMG.

[Fordorsia]

If it's just for single man usage as a light support weapon, it's an LMG.

LMGs are still ideally operated by two people. They're not meant to be solely used by one person, at least not intermediate LMGs anyway.

[Kouralia]

If it's just for single man usage as a light support weapon, it's an LMG.

LMGs are still ideally operated by two people. They're not meant to be solely used by one person, at least not intermediate LMGs anyway.

Yeah, but they can be operated by an single person.

[Crookfur]

What makes the MG-34 a GPMG compared to other LMGs like the DP?
"just" the ability to mount on a tripod and getting belt or drum fed?

Basically it's belt feeding and a quick change barrel. Tripods help but loads of LMGs had them (iirc the german tripods were based on the one from the madsen gun).

Not to say that mag fed LMGs couldn't be used to do mote or less the full GPMG job description, the bren was certainly used in a GPMG manner (ie in the light and sustained fire roles) by the paras until the 1980s.

[Puzikas]

Y'know, I've always wondered if Puz is in Puz's profile picture... or if that's indeed some random dude.

Just some dude but he reminds me of me
I have that same look at my face basically at all times from years of being shot at and further years of being screamed at by grotesquely overweight smokers with severe medical issues.

[Fordorsia]

LMGs are still ideally operated by two people. They're not meant to be solely used by one person, at least not intermediate LMGs anyway.

Yeah, but they can be operated by an single person.

So can a GPMG

[Theodosiya]

Y'know, I've always wondered if Puz is in Puz's profile picture... or if that's indeed some random dude.

Just some dude but he reminds me of me
I have that same look at my face basically at all times from years of being shot at and further years of being screamed at by grotesquely overweight smokers with severe medical issues.

Tell us some wartime stories, grandpa. No, seriously. I want to hear some stories from a Russian Naval Infantryman (Unsure whether mentioning "former" is a thing. Since, once a Marine, always a Marine, right?)

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Y'know, I've always wondered if Puz is in Puz's profile picture... or if that's indeed some random dude.

Just some dude but he reminds me of me
I have that same look at my face basically at all times from years of being shot at and further years of being screamed at by grotesquely overweight smokers with severe medical issues.

Serious question, how many PK barrels have you completely decommissioned during your years?

[Fordorsia]

Just some dude but he reminds me of me
I have that same look at my face basically at all times from years of being shot at and further years of being screamed at by grotesquely overweight smokers with severe medical issues.

Tell us some wartime stories, grandpa. No, seriously. I want to hear some stories from a Russian Naval Infantryman (Unsure whether mentioning "former" is a thing. Since, once a Marine, always a Marine, right?)

When the Soviets captured the Führerbunker he looted Hitler's watch

[Puzikas]

Just some dude but he reminds me of me
I have that same look at my face basically at all times from years of being shot at and further years of being screamed at by grotesquely overweight smokers with severe medical issues.

Serious question, how many PK barrels have you completely decommissioned during your years?

Dozens I'm sure. Remember that barrels are able to be reused, they just get removed to aid in cooling.

During a particularly vigerous firefight on New year's day my platoon shot out nine PK barrels and over 12,000 rounds of 7.62x54mmR, which was not always pre-belted.
The machine gun was put out of and brought back into service six times in the span of about 20 minutes, the final time settled the issue when an absolute madman of an IAR gunner lept from his firing position, emptied a whole magazine at a position about eighty meters from his, which allowed two RPG gunners to send a pair of rockets into it.
Two barrels were so warped we had to pull them from the gun quite forcefully, and it reached the point where the assistant gunner had started stuffing snow into the barrels to cool them, one other outright ruptured due to grenade damage

When the Soviets captured the Führerbunker he looted Hitler's watch

It gives +2 to time-telling but also gives +8 to speech checks with neo nazis

[Gallia-]

Y'know, I've always wondered if Puz is in Puz's profile picture... or if that's indeed some random dude.

Just some dude but he reminds me of me
I have that same look at my face basically at all times from years of being shot at and further years of being screamed at by grotesquely overweight smokers with severe medical issues.

Y-A-W-N.jp2

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

What were LMGs like in WWI?

[-AlEmAnNiA-]

nonexistent?

[Gallia-]

What were LMGs like in WWI?

Goofy.

nonexistent?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauchat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergmann_ ... achine_gun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_gun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madsen_machine_gun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1918_Bro ... atic_Rifle

Not in the slightest.

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

AFAIK most of them were unreliable or prohibitively expensive compared to the bolt action weapons which were nearly at the apex of their design before self-loading rifles would come into their own in the next few decades. Were LMGs still able to be taken full advantage of as they were in the next war?

[Crookfur]

AFAIK most of them were unreliable or prohibitively expensive compared to the bolt action weapons which were nearly at the apex of their design before self-loading rifles would come into their own in the next few decades. Were LMGs still able to be taken full advantage of as they were in the next war?

So prohibitively expensive the British could feild 2 Lewis guns per platoon officially. Unofficially it was not unknown for platoons to have enough Lewis guns to have one in each rifle section aswell as the two in the gun section.

IIRC the French and Americans had already moved to at least one LMG per section/squad by the end of the war.

[Novorden]

Is the Carl-Gustaf M4 more suited for section/squad or platoon level deployment? As I have been reading about how the infantry love their M3s however they don't mention what level they are at.