Official Embassy of The South Pacific

[Drop Your Pants]

As for TSP's note, it is good to see that you all are supporting Lazarus. With their barren activity these days, they need all the help they can get.

Thank you for the outside opinion but happily its wrong. I've seen Lazarus inactive, and we're not even close.

[Unibot III]

Now now, Cormac. You are talking about when you and Tim went against the demographically elected pharaoh to coup the region, right? If anything TBH did not go against Osiris, you did.

This isn't about The Black Hawks not helping our side, specifically. You didn't help raider allies on either side, on the grounds that The Black Hawks don't involve themselves in Feeder and Sinker drama. The Black Hawks wouldn't even support a Delegate transition in Osiris after the resistance had collapsed and the conflict was clearly over, on the same grounds. It's unfortunate to see that you won't help your fellow raiders during a conflict, because Feeder and Sinker drama is bad, but you're fine with infringing on the sovereignty of a Sinker when its suits you.

Of course that was probably all just an excuse to sit on the fence and see which side won anyway. It's been clear since 2013 that The Black Hawks have no qualms about messing around in the Feeders and Sinkers, as you supported a coup d'etat against the South Pacific, attempted one in Osiris which I sniffed out at the last minute, and had sleepers in other Feeders and Sinkers -- including Balder, of all places -- for the same purpose.

I'll note TBH have been involved in coups before 2013. For starters, they last invaded Lazarus in 2005.

[Jakker]

This isn't about The Black Hawks not helping our side, specifically. You didn't help raider allies on either side, on the grounds that The Black Hawks don't involve themselves in Feeder and Sinker drama. The Black Hawks wouldn't even support a Delegate transition in Osiris after the resistance had collapsed and the conflict was clearly over, on the same grounds. It's unfortunate to see that you won't help your fellow raiders during a conflict, because Feeder and Sinker drama is bad, but you're fine with infringing on the sovereignty of a Sinker when its suits you.

Of course that was probably all just an excuse to sit on the fence and see which side won anyway. It's been clear since 2013 that The Black Hawks have no qualms about messing around in the Feeders and Sinkers, as you supported a coup d'etat against the South Pacific, attempted one in Osiris which I sniffed out at the last minute, and had sleepers in other Feeders and Sinkers -- including Balder, of all places -- for the same purpose.

I'll note TBH have been involved in coups before 2013. For starters, they last invaded Lazarus in 2005.

It is a shame I wasn't around to be part of that.

Every situation is different. Sometimes we won't be involved, sometimes we will be involved. Our decision will always reflect what makes sense for us and our ideals. This is not just for GCRs, but all regions. We do not hold formal treaties with anyone for this reason.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

You do realize that at least half of the active council in the past few years wasn't anywhere near TBH in 2013 right? Hell, I was a native in TSP that got ejected by Milo back then! Kleo, wetwork, Syg, and I (whom have all been council at various times) would have had no say in descisions from that era. COE and Red Back have largely only spoken up for extraordinary events, I can't speak for koth, and that leaves jakker as my only for sure connection there The intentions and policies of TBH can shift slightly as the leadership gradually does.


All that said, as Mall pointed out - there's a pretty big difference between taking sides in a running conflict for long term control of a region that has allies on both sides (hell no, don't want to touch that and alienate half our allies either way with a ten foot pole), and any possible single-update pranks that seem to have just pushed a trusted candidate into the seat for 12 hours and then dissipated to the wind.

[Cormactopia Prime]

All that said, as Mall pointed out - there's a pretty big difference between taking sides in a running conflict for long term control of a region that has allies on both sides (hell no, don't want to touch that and alienate half our allies either way with a ten foot pole), and any possible single-update pranks that seem to have just pushed a trusted candidate into the seat for 12 hours and then dissipated to the wind.

Let's be clear: Your "single-update prank" was an invasion of Lazarus, during which Loftegen was encouraged to overthrow the government of Lazarus, and during which he was misrepresented as having asked for the invasion in order to assist him in overthrowing the Lazarene government. With Loftegen a candidate for Vice Delegate of Lazarus as that invasion was ongoing, falsely accusing him of requesting raider forces to assist him in perpetrating a coup constituted manipulation of the ongoing Lazarene election.

That all of this occurred in a single update, and that you could not hold Lazarus, does not make it any less an invasion than was the 2011 invasion of the Rejected Realms by The New Inquisition. Deploying hostile military forces to a region without the authorization of that region is an invasion, not a prank, and should be treated as such.

[Sygian II]

Let's be clear: Your "single-update prank" was an invasion of Lazarus,

I thought everyone agreed that this wasn't an invasion?

during which Loftegen was encouraged to overthrow the government of Lazarus,

Yeah, by Mall? It's not like he was asked to encourage Loftegen, because that's what you're making it sound like.

and during which he was misrepresented as having asked for the invasion in order to assist him in overthrowing the Lazarene government.

By whom? I don't recall any claim that Loftegen requested an "invasion" that was not in jest.

With Loftegen a candidate for Vice Delegate of Lazarus as that invasion was ongoing, falsely accusing him of requesting raider forces to assist him in perpetrating a coup constituted manipulation of the ongoing Lazarene election.

Actually, it didn't interfere at all with the elections. It was obvious that Loftegen had no idea that it happened until he logged on, and nobody is blaming him for it. Saying that it was an attempt to manipulate the Lazarene election for Defender of the Realm (Vice-Delegate) is not true, because that implies that 1. The Black Hawks as a region actually care what goes on in Lazarus and 2. we cared enough to "rig" the election.

Loftegen is currently tied with Doperland in the election, and from what I can tell, there's not a single voter that planned on voting for Loftegen before the election that has considered switching or already switched their vote for Constie (Canton Empire) or Doperland due to the "invasion."

That all of this occurred in a single update, and that you could not hold Lazarus, does not make it any less an invasion than was the 2011 invasion of the Rejected Realms by The New Inquisition. Deploying hostile military forces to a region without the authorization of that region is an invasion, not a prank, and should be treated as such.

The Black Hawks have neither been liberated nor have they not been able to hold a region for as far as I can remember, definitely before I was appointed to the council. If this is some sort of low punch that implies this "invasion" was liberated or whatever, it's worth noting that the nations endorsing Loftegen resigned from the WA, so it's obvious that this wasn't a holding attempt.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Let's be clear: Your "single-update prank" was an invasion of Lazarus,

I thought everyone agreed that this wasn't an invasion?

It wasn't a raid. It was an invasion. There is a difference.

during which Loftegen was encouraged to overthrow the government of Lazarus,

Yeah, by Mall? It's not like he was asked to encourage Loftegen, because that's what you're making it sound like.

He also clearly was not asked to stop, or if he was asked, he didn't.

and during which he was misrepresented as having asked for the invasion in order to assist him in overthrowing the Lazarene government.

By whom? I don't recall any claim that Loftegen requested an "invasion" that was not in jest.

I've already linked to one instance of it. Here it is again.

With Loftegen a candidate for Vice Delegate of Lazarus as that invasion was ongoing, falsely accusing him of requesting raider forces to assist him in perpetrating a coup constituted manipulation of the ongoing Lazarene election.

Actually, it didn't interfere at all with the elections. It was obvious that Loftegen had no idea that it happened until he logged on, and nobody is blaming him for it. Saying that it was an attempt to manipulate the Lazarene election for Defender of the Realm (Vice-Delegate) is not true, because that implies that 1. The Black Hawks as a region actually care what goes on in Lazarus and 2. we cared enough to "rig" the election.

Loftegen is currently tied with Doperland in the election, and from what I can tell, there's not a single voter that planned on voting for Loftegen before the election that has considered switching or already switched their vote for Constie (Canton Empire) or Doperland due to the "invasion."

That the manipulation of the Lazarene election was unsuccessful does not make it less of a manipulation. Intentionally or not, when you invaded Lazarus and Loftegen was falsely accused of requesting the invasion to perpetrate a coup d'etat, in the midst of an election in which he is a candidate, that constituted manipulation of the election. That it did not have an impact doesn't mean it couldn't have had an impact.

That all of this occurred in a single update, and that you could not hold Lazarus, does not make it any less an invasion than was the 2011 invasion of the Rejected Realms by The New Inquisition. Deploying hostile military forces to a region without the authorization of that region is an invasion, not a prank, and should be treated as such.

The Black Hawks have neither been liberated nor have they not been able to hold a region for as far as I can remember, definitely before I was appointed to the council. If this is some sort of low punch that implies this "invasion" was liberated or whatever, it's worth noting that the nations endorsing Loftegen resigned from the WA, so it's obvious that this wasn't a holding attempt.

Not the point. My point was simply that just because you didn't take and hold the Delegacy of Lazarus yourselves doesn't make this any less an invasion. When hostile military forces deploy to a region without authorization, that is an invasion, regardless of their purpose there.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Yeah, by Mall? It's not like he was asked to encourage Loftegen, because that's what you're making it sound like.

He also clearly was not asked to stop, or if he was asked, he didn't.

Just so we're clear: all past organizations that I have been a part of are now responsible for my actions going forward and retroactive from this moment? Including damages for failure to mitigate my behavior? If so, it looks like Osiris, the UDL, TNP, TSP, TEP, AO, Dharma, Gatesville, TBH, DEN, and Stargate all have a lot to answer for.

So really, TSP invaded lazarus then. The audacity.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Just so we're clear: all past organizations that I have been a part of are now responsible for my actions going forward and retroactive from this moment? Including damages for failure to mitigate my behavior? If so, it looks like Osiris, the UDL, TNP, TSP, TEP, AO, Dharma, Gatesville, TBH, DEN, and Stargate all have a lot to answer for.

So really, TSP invaded lazarus then. The audacity.

I think it's pretty difficult for you to disassociate yourself from your immediately former, longtime organization, especially when your actions took place in conjunction with one of their operations. If you would prefer not to have your actions associated with them, might I suggest not interjecting yourself into their operations?

[Mallorea and Riva]

Just so we're clear: all past organizations that I have been a part of are now responsible for my actions going forward and retroactive from this moment? Including damages for failure to mitigate my behavior? If so, it looks like Osiris, the UDL, TNP, TSP, TEP, AO, Dharma, Gatesville, TBH, DEN, and Stargate all have a lot to answer for.

So really, TSP invaded lazarus then. The audacity.

I think it's pretty difficult for you to disassociate yourself from your immediately former, longtime organization, especially when your actions took place in conjunction with one of their operations. If you would prefer not to have your actions associated with them, might I suggest not interjecting yourself into their operations?

So TSP did invade Lazarus. I'll start writing up the condemnation. Ignoring of course the fact that at the time of the invasion I had no idea who was behind it.

Still curious as to whether or not TSP actively defender or merely piled after update.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I've clarified this as least twice before, but Mall maintains only an ambassador masking in both our discord and forums, and only was removed from the inactive mask upon his most recent return to the site. Saying he has anything to do with TBH's interests over his own interests is just silly.

[Solorni]

Congratulations to TSP for their successful mission! It'd be cool, although I say this in am unofficial position if the Jomsvikings and South Pacific army could work together on things like this.

[Roavin]

Still curious as to whether or not TSP actively defender or merely piled after update.

Didn't get in on time because usually we ignore it when an endorsement for known GCR ROs pop up on the activity feed and it started to update right as we realized what was happening and were about to give the order >_>. Afterwards, had people with existing nations (therefore existing influence) pile in and tart.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Still curious as to whether or not TSP actively defender or merely piled after update.

Didn't get in on time because usually we ignore it when an endorsement for known GCR ROs pop up on the activity feed and it started to update right as we realized what was happening and were about to give the order >_>. Afterwards, had people with existing nations (therefore existing influence) pile in and tart.

Ah ok.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Sygian, aren't you a member of TSP's Assembly now? Like, really recently? Not a good look to be messing with our allies.

[Cerian Quilor]

He's a member of Lazarus' assembly too, last time I looked...

[Sygian II]

Sygian, aren't you a member of TSP's Assembly now? Like, really recently? Not a good look to be messing with our allies.

He's a member of Lazarus' assembly too, last time I looked...

I'm a man of many hats.

[Drop Your Pants]

He's a member of Lazarus' assembly too, last time I looked...

I'm not allowed be snarky at him because i'm not in an elected position. Otherwise someone would be getting an earful and a few slaps.

[Escade]

I always love a bit of government level snark.

[Cerian Quilor]

I always love a bit of government level snark.

I am really tempted to, once elections are finished in Kantrias, to propose a law in the Council that will require that Kantrian Foreign Ministers must be snarky when in the GP forums. But probably would be more counterproductive than funny.

[Nay-O-Bi]

I always love a bit of government level snark.

I am really tempted to, once elections are finished in Kantrias, to propose a law in the Council that will require that Kantrian Foreign Ministers must be snarky when in the GP forums. But probably would be more counterproductive than funny.

...

well that's nice...

[Cerian Quilor]

I am really tempted to, once elections are finished in Kantrias, to propose a law in the Council that will require that Kantrian Foreign Ministers must be snarky when in the GP forums. But probably would be more counterproductive than funny.

...

well that's nice...

No, not nice. Just funny af. But like I said, 'tempted' and I did say it would be counterproductive. Forgive me for liking snark.

[Leutria]

...

well that's nice...

No, not nice. Just funny af. But like I said, 'tempted' and I did say it would be counterproductive. Forgive me for liking snark.

Ya, no...I can promise I would be fighting against you if you proposed that

[Drop Your Pants]

I've clarified this as least twice before, but Mall maintains only an ambassador masking in both our discord and forums, and only was removed from the inactive mask upon his most recent return to the site. Saying he has anything to do with TBH's interests over his own interests is just silly.

Honorary Non-General Mall seems higher than Ambassador

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I've clarified this as least twice before, but Mall maintains only an ambassador masking in both our discord and forums, and only was removed from the inactive mask upon his most recent return to the site. Saying he has anything to do with TBH's interests over his own interests is just silly.

Honorary Non-General Mall seems higher than Ambassador

We can't make him not say silly things in his nickname I mean we can, but that would require locking a lot of other people out too. Mask though? Ambassador pink. Don't start shit for me DYP >.>