NS Military Realism Consultancy Thread Mk X Purps Safe Space

[Celibrae]

I did a Gallan thing today. I replaced FV432 with a turretless Warrior. May God have mercy on my soul.

COMMONALITY

[Tekeristan]

Good help!

There are a few locations I can more likely get away with things, so we'll see. The benefits from success are simply to high to ignore.

[Gallia-]

Much of the US State Department's leadership just resigned. Is this just the beginning of an exodus of government personnel who want nothing to do with the current administration? Even if it isn't, this doesn't bode well for the confidence government employees will have in their leadership.

Newt Gingrich said that any federal employee who voted Dem should be fired.
Luckily, no-one cares what he thinks.

More worrying is the dismissal of all US ambassadors without replacement. This leaves the US without diplomatic ties to any country, including ones where the relationship is very sensitive. It also suggests that Trump would want to fill all ambassadorial positions with idealogues and lackies - Ivanka has apparently expressed interest in becoming the US ambassador to the Czech Republic.

What the fuck? You realize that the bulk of American European/NATO ambassadorships are literally gifts to campaign donors, right? Those people weren't "dismissed", they voluntarily resigned. Why? Because that's the tradition that happens when a new administration comes into office. The only reason you're surprised is because you were like 14 when Obama got elected the first time and all of Bush's political appointments resigned or got ass destroyed and told to leave when the new ambassador arrives.

Wait, let me list Obama's campaign donor ambassadorships and let's see if we can piece together which ones Trump is going to replace:

- Argentina
- Austria
- Belgium
- Canada
- Costa Rica
- Czech Republic
- Dominican Republic
- Finland
- France/Monaco
- Germany
- Hungary
- Iceland
- Morocco
- New Zealand/Samoa
- Portugal
- Singapore
- Spain/Andorra
- Switzerland/Liechtenstein
- United Kingdom
- UN/Geneva
- UN/HRC
- UNESCO

Trump didn't gut the civil service, instead a bunch of people decided to resign. For the time being, the charge d'affairs of the American embassies, invariably a competent Foreign Service Officer, runs these embassies until Trump has rewarded his campaign's donors with ambassadorships to European allies. The major difference is that Trump is promoting people based less on their campaign donations and more on their perceived loyalty or outsider status from Big Money and the Beltway, but that's the same sort of nepotism that you see in American political appointments anyway so who_cares.

It's literally irrelevant because the ambassador's job is to be a pinstriped cookie pusher. He takes pictures with leaders, drinks tea, and generally is useless. The FSOs and any other other Civil Service officers do the heavy lifting/actual work behind the scenes.

Besides, Trump can't be much worse than Obama was. He appointed a fucking soap opera producer as the ambassador of Hungary.

http://www.npr.org/2014/02/12/275897092 ... appointees

[Erutenia]

Burning your own country doesn't seem like the best plan to me.

Oh, mother Russia.

[Puzikas]

We did it to Ukraine too thanks very much.

[Austrasien]

We did it to Ukraine too thanks very much.

[Puzikas]

"Wanna know how I got these scars?"- Gorby probably

[The Soodean Imperium]

Well, that helps a lot!

In terms of torpedoes, the question is that since they're in a cargo container (since dropping undisguised mines will likely be harder to get away with), is how to disperse them. I do suppose that having GPS access would probably be helpful for that (guided torpedo mines), in which case, an underwater gps anchor might be quite helpful.

Automatic door release with a non-water proof container.. Paint the torpedoes sand colored.. Maybe a few magnetic?

@ Allanea
Floating into a hostile strait that's also surrounded by city to lay mines without any visual cover is probably along the lines of 'dangerous'.

Akasha already covered most of this, but if you want to do covert minelaying, the challenge is to disguise the ship, not the mines.

The Iraqi minelaying barge Jumariya should come to mind, along with any number of other proposals to convert cargo ships to covert minelayers. An internal moon pool would make the minelaying even harder to detect. Once released, the mines will either sink to the bottom or be anchored at a preset depth, so what they look like is irrelevant as long as they're not visible from outside the ship.

e: it might still look suspicious, especially if inspectors ask to come on board, but it's still less conspicuous than sending a cargo ship to dump floating 40' containers over the sides in full view of everyone on both sides of the canal.

[Tekeristan]

Well, that helps a lot!

In terms of torpedoes, the question is that since they're in a cargo container (since dropping undisguised mines will likely be harder to get away with), is how to disperse them. I do suppose that having GPS access would probably be helpful for that (guided torpedo mines), in which case, an underwater gps anchor might be quite helpful.

Automatic door release with a non-water proof container.. Paint the torpedoes sand colored.. Maybe a few magnetic?

@ Allanea
Floating into a hostile strait that's also surrounded by city to lay mines without any visual cover is probably along the lines of 'dangerous'.

Akasha already covered most of this, but if you want to do covert minelaying, the challenge is to disguise the ship, not the mines.

The Iraqi minelaying barge Jumariya should come to mind, along with any number of other proposals to convert cargo ships to covert minelayers. An internal moon pool would make the minelaying even harder to detect. Once released, the mines will either sink to the bottom or be anchored at a preset depth, so what they look like is irrelevant as long as they're not visible from outside the ship.

e: it might still look suspicious, especially if inspectors ask to come on board, but it's still less conspicuous than sending a cargo ship to dump floating 40' containers over the sides in full view of everyone on both sides of the canal.

This has all been very useful!
An internal moon pool would be most optimal.

At this point, my questions largely surround the mines themselves.. Torpedo ones, most likely, but rather if I should mix a few magnetic switches with the sound-following ones.

[Crookfur]

Well, that helps a lot!

In terms of torpedoes, the question is that since they're in a cargo container (since dropping undisguised mines will likely be harder to get away with), is how to disperse them. I do suppose that having GPS access would probably be helpful for that (guided torpedo mines), in which case, an underwater gps anchor might be quite helpful.

Automatic door release with a non-water proof container.. Paint the torpedoes sand colored.. Maybe a few magnetic?

@ Allanea
Floating into a hostile strait that's also surrounded by city to lay mines without any visual cover is probably along the lines of 'dangerous'.

Akasha already covered most of this, but if you want to do covert minelaying, the challenge is to disguise the ship, not the mines.

The Iraqi minelaying barge Jumariya should come to mind, along with any number of other proposals to convert cargo ships to covert minelayers. An internal moon pool would make the minelaying even harder to detect. Once released, the mines will either sink to the bottom or be anchored at a preset depth, so what they look like is irrelevant as long as they're not visible from outside the ship.

e: it might still look suspicious, especially if inspectors ask to come on board, but it's still less conspicuous than sending a cargo ship to dump floating 40' containers over the sides in full view of everyone on both sides of the canal.

Yeah all a container going over the side would do is spark a mad rush to salvage it by whom ever has authority over the canal/waterway for a variety of reasons be they environmental, to remove any chance of a risk to shipping and also to prevent freelance salvage operators getting in everyone's way. Of course if the authorities don't go after it then it's a scramble between salvage teams to secure the pay out from the shipping line/insurance company.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

i'd say SKS are fine rifles themselves anyway.

you don't really need full auto fire capability for dumb conscripts/militia/peasants anyway as they'll just waste their ammo pointlessly and desert when they realize

It's easier to maintain - and produce - spair parts of one rifle rather than multiple.

assuming you have enough of those old rifles you could alternatively just cannibalize old stock for parts. it is also worth noting that older rifle designs, whether in updated form of not, often find their way "back into" military service as DMRs. See M14, "battle rifle" variants etc.

i'd say SKS are fine rifles themselves anyway.

you don't really need full auto fire capability for dumb conscripts/militia/peasants anyway as they'll just waste their ammo pointlessly and desert when they realize

And yet dumb conscripts, militia, peasants, insurgents, and actual child soldiers have been using AKMs for fifty years with no major complaints.

The initial post was the following:

Ok, so maybe I will stockpile some RPDs and DPVs. What do you think of retaining some SKS? I use AKMs\RPKs for my Internal Troops, so these weapons would be third line arms that would be stored in arsenals and not issued unless we were actually at war and needed to mobilize\replace a large number of troops (and in such a case they might go to the Internal Troops first).

I'm not necessarily saying what I said in the context of making out full-auto, more modern rifles to be bad for conscripts, militias, etc. but rather in the context of discussing whether or not older rifles like the SKS are fine (for those type of troops).

So what I'm saying is not that AKMs are bad but that SKSs would do just fine in that role.

If his "main" rifle and LMGs are also chambered in 7.62x39mm as the SKS is (and RPD too since he brought that up) , which they probably are for the time-frame he seems to be RP'ing, then this, I'd argue, is a further selling point to keeping the SKS as you have ammo commonality with the first/mainline troops and would not need different ammo for the older rifle. Either way, it's definitely not a disadvantage.

"Faster rate of fire means they'll waste ammo and shoot less accurate" is a dead meme from the middle of the 19th century. Er, unless you're proposing an assault rifle that can fire at 1200 rpm or something.

If those troops have poor training and/or discipline, chances are high that a full-auto mode on their rifle will probably give them the chance of wasting more ammo than they could without it. Which will probably happen, especially in situations where they're panicking (which could also happen pretty frequently with their poor training and discipline being a factor).

Puz can sperg the details but basically AFAIK there's no real reason to choose SKS over AKM for reservists and militia.

The question was, given presumably a large stock of SKSs already on hand, whether they make for a suitable rifle for, in his own words, 3rd line troops. I would be willing to argue they do, and that any advantage full auto capability might have would probably be overshadowed by them not using it properly and running out of ammo too quick in the midst of a battle. In a situation where you're in a full-blown war and are needing to "mobilize/replace a large number of troops" your supply chains would probably be focusing on keeping mainline troops alive and going, not coming up with more and more ammo for reservists to burn through with uncalled for automatic fire. If and when these "3rd line" troops operate mixed in with mainline soldiers their relative lack of suppressive fire-laying capabilities compared with their assault rifle-carrying counterparts would be somewhat mitigated by the latter.

God forbid the soldiers actually shoot their bullets, they'll run our ammunition foundries dry!

I'm not arguing this is the main problem, but rather 1. running out of bullets in the middle of a battle and maybe to a lesser degree 2. needlessly stressing supply chains.

God forbid the soldiers actually shoot their bullets, they'll run our ammunition foundries dry!

Muzzle-loading best loading

Can't trust the unwashed conscripts with anything more

Maybe revolvers for officers, but let's not get carried away here

Why does the US mainly issue semi/burst firing M16s then if full-auto is so great?

The action was also modified, replacing the fully automatic setting with a three-round burst setting.[137] When using a fully automatic weapon, inexperienced troops often hold down the trigger and "spray" when under fire. The U.S. Army concluded that three-shot groups provide an optimum combination of ammunition conservation, accuracy, and firepower.[141] The USMC has retired the M16A2 in favour of the newer M16A4, although a few M16A2s are still in use by the United States Marine Corps today. Many M16A2s remain in service with the U.S. Army, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but:

M16A2 has burst, and AFAIK most M16A4s issued to US personnel are also burst. M16A3 is only issued to a small number of units.

The original M4 was also burst, and initially M4A1s were only issued for SOF use. The Marines I think use the M4. The Army have only recently started converting their M4s to M4A1s, however, unlike the Marines, the M4 isn't the Army's main rifle.

[Korva]

1) If they are so poorly trained that they run dry with fully automatic weapons they will run dry in a slightly longer amount of time with semi-automatic weapons. Cyclic rate isn't sustained rate, even (especially?) with panicked soldiers. Supply chains will be fine, infantry ammunition is just one small component of the things needed at the front.

2)a The US Army doesn't always make the best decisions.

2)b The US is afflicted with the "Every man a Rifleman" Meme. Maybe our frontier culture?

3) How many militaries do you see now adopting or having adopted semi/burst only rifles?

[Hurtful Thoughts]

1) If they are so poorly trained that they run dry with fully automatic weapons they will run dry in a slightly longer amount of time with semi-automatic weapons. Cyclic rate isn't sustained rate, even (especially?) with panicked soldiers. Supply chains will be fine, infantry ammunition is just one small component of the things needed at the front.

2)a The US Army doesn't always make the best decisions.

2)b The US is afflicted with the "Every man a Rifleman" Meme. Maybe our frontier culture?

3) How many militaries do you see now adopting or having adopted semi/burst only rifles?

France and UK did.

Although FAMAS had a switch that allowed trained troops to ignore 3rd burst and just go with a SEF fire selector, while conscripts got theirs pinned to S-1-3.

And the British L1A1... well, that was semi-auto only unti SA80 stepped-in to replace the Sterling SMG. And for a time China's semi-auto rifles for conscripts (Type 56 SKS and Type 63) had the same limits.

Poorer nations were still arming their conscipts with bolt-action rifles or whatever they could get for free. Not sure if anyone retrofitted burst-fire into the M2 carbine, but I'm sure someone would've thought that was an awesome idea at the time.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

1) If they are so poorly trained that they run dry with fully automatic weapons they will run dry in a slightly longer amount of time with semi-automatic weapons. Cyclic rate isn't sustained rate, even (especially?) with panicked soldiers. Supply chains will be fine, infantry ammunition is just one small component of the things needed at the front.

2)a The US Army doesn't always make the best decisions.

2)b The US is afflicted with the "Every man a Rifleman" Meme. Maybe our frontier culture?

3) How many militaries do you see now adopting or having adopted semi/burst only rifles?

How many of those even have conscription nowadays lol?

In all fairness, if you're a conscript on Earth today you're most likely getting a AKM or AK-74 or variant when mobilized.

I still support my opinion that if you already have a large amount of SKSs on hand for 3rd line troops there is little reason to replace with new AKMs. if for example you've already gone through one or more "generations" of AK's as your mainline rifle, say you're currently fielding AK-74 / AK-10x then yes of course fielding old stocks of AKM or AK-74 respectively is probably better than SKS.

[The Akasha Colony]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but:

M16A2 has burst, and AFAIK most M16A4s issued to US personnel are also burst. M16A3 is only issued to a small number of units.

The original M4 was also burst, and initially M4A1s were only issued for SOF use. The Marines I think use the M4. The Army have only recently started converting their M4s to M4A1s, however, unlike the Marines, the M4 isn't the Army's main rifle.

The US was also of the opinion for quite some time that assault rifles were dumb and that muh marksmanship would carry the day using the M14.

The Army has been in the process of switching over to the M4A1 while the Marines, who are the biggest believers in "muh riflemen" held out until last year before switching over to the M4A1 from the M16A4. Their transition was faster because the Marines are a smaller force.

Which means that the US military is transitioning away from burst-fire weapons in favor of fully automatic weapons across the board, with the only burst-fire weapons being the leftover M16s sticking around in inventory for rear-line use.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but:

M16A2 has burst, and AFAIK most M16A4s issued to US personnel are also burst. M16A3 is only issued to a small number of units.

The original M4 was also burst, and initially M4A1s were only issued for SOF use. The Marines I think use the M4. The Army have only recently started converting their M4s to M4A1s, however, unlike the Marines, the M4 isn't the Army's main rifle.

The US was also of the opinion for quite some time that assault rifles were dumb and that muh marksmanship would carry the day using the M14.

The Army has been in the process of switching over to the M4A1 while the Marines, who are the biggest believers in "muh riflemen" held out until last year before switching over to the M4A1 from the M16A4. Their transition was faster because the Marines are a smaller force.

Which means that the US military is transitioning away from burst-fire weapons in favor of fully automatic weapons across the board, with the only burst-fire weapons being the leftover M16s sticking around in inventory for rear-line use.

The US military in terms of Army/Marines/Navy also happens to be a fully professional military . . .

[IceBuddha]

My 2 cents:

Three round burst is a crutch for poorly trained troops.

Riflemen with assault rifles should only seldomly engage in full-auto fire. At most combat ranges, rapid semi-auto fire is better both for suppression and for actually hitting your target. I think the reason that aimed fire and individual marksmanship is emphasized is that blind, "suppressive" fire seems to be a natural impulse for most people who are under fire and who can't see their enemy.

Using surplus stocks of SKS rifles for third line troops is okay as an interim measure. The main problem with them is the low capacity, non-detachable magazine. I would say if you are capable of giving them something a little more modern (AKM or AK-74), give them that.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

SIG SG 550 safe/semi/burst/full ftw

[The Akasha Colony]

The US military in terms of Army/Marines/Navy also happens to be a fully professional military . . .

The draft/professional status of the US military has never been a factor in choosing rifle firing modes.

The M16A1 was fielded when the US still had an active draft and was fully automatic. The M14 was also introduced as an automatic weapon while the US had a drafted force.

The M16A2 which introduced the burst-fire mode was introduced after the US transitioned to an all-volunteer force and ended the draft.

The US still has an all-volunteer force and brought back fully automatic fire with M4A1.

[Padnak]

Although its been outmoded by newer materials, is there any major disadvantages to using waxed cotton rain and winter gear?

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

The US military in terms of Army/Marines/Navy also happens to be a fully professional military . . .

The draft/professional status of the US military has never been a factor in choosing rifle firing modes.

The M16A1 was fielded when the US still had an active draft and was fully automatic. The M14 was also introduced as an automatic weapon while the US had a drafted force.

The M16A2 which introduced the burst-fire mode was introduced after the US transitioned to an all-volunteer force and ended the draft.

The US still has an all-volunteer force and brought back fully automatic fire with M4A1.

you're probably right but a factor in going with burst over auto was real or perceived ammo wasting which would probably happen more with conscripts than with professional

[Hurtful Thoughts]

My 2 cents:

Three round burst is a crutch for poorly trained troops.

Riflemen with assault rifles should only seldomly engage in full-auto fire. At most combat ranges, rapid semi-auto fire is better both for suppression and for actually hitting your target. I think the reason that aimed fire and individual marksmanship is emphasized is that blind, "suppressive" fire seems to be a natural impulse for most people who are under fire and who can't see their enemy.

Using surplus stocks of SKS rifles for third line troops is okay as an interim measure. The main problem with them is the low capacity, non-detachable magazine. I would say if you are capable of giving them something a little more modern (AKM or AK-74), give them that.

One quick upgrade to the SKS was the 20 rd mag so you could almost always find enough room to cram a 10 rd stripper-clip into it. Ensuring you never had less than 11 rounds in your gun.

This was a thing until the countries in question could manufacture enough AK magazines and train their soldiers in proper magazine-retention and/or recovery and refurbishment... In which case it was just another quick mod for some of those rifles to take AK-mags. (This is the bastard-child rifle Type 63)

Although realisticly, 3rd line troops are getting Mosins and PPSh with a bayonet welded to the front.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Would it make sense to manufacture truck militarization/"technical" kits?

They would be intended to improve civilian and/or military trucks for military/security duties and have the following purposes:

-domestic use with military/security forces
-export to allies for use with military/security forces
-export to friendly rebel factions

The kits would consist of any of the following (with more basic or extensive kits) :

-general protection in the form of wire mesh screens for windows, headlights, taillights ; run-flat tires ; bed rollcage ; bullbar
-weaponization in the form of rollcage-mounted ringmount, roof-mounted pintle mount, roof hatches
-utility/off-road features in the form of improved suspension kits, snorkel, light bar, bed folding bench seats
-spall and/or frag and/or ballistic protection in the form of rollcage-mounted ballistic blankets, sheets of flexible armor mounted on the interior of the vehicle

The point would be to improve utility, mobility, protection, firepower, etc.

The main idea would be for them to allow easy installation in the field, perhaps even just by those who operate the vehicles themselves without the need of additional technical staff.

You could have kits for various truck models and/or universal kits that would fit most common "technicals" (IRL this would be Hilux/Toyota Land Cruiser) . In any case some parts will be common among them.

[Taihei Tengoku]

Burst was a Project SALVO holdover that the USMC insisted on for M16A2. There isn't anything magic about it.

[Questers]

In all fairness, if you're a conscript on Earth today you're most likely getting a AKM or AK-74 or variant when mobilized.

The biggest Army to still have conscription is both North and South Koreas. I dont know what the North uses, but South Korea uses M16s and its own rifle which I think is basically an M16.