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by Sanabel » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:48 pm
by Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:52 pm
Sanabel wrote:BTW, How do a few million Arabs(who are hardly homogenous themselves) control black Africans that outnumber them 3 to 1 without any rebellions?
by Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:54 pm
Seinlo wrote:Sanabel wrote:BTW, How do a few million Arabs(who are hardly homogenous themselves) control black Africans that outnumber them 3 to 1 without any rebellions?
Islam spread through western and eastern Africa, and as high up as the Horn of Africa, and marriages, conquest, trade, assimilation, and Yemenization do a lot. There is also the fact that more than the IRL amount of ethnic hybrids exist. There /are/ rebellions, but many see the Rasulid dynasty as legitimate rulers because of their control over the Hejaz. I am sure there are other reasons, but my brain is really addled right now.
by Sanabel » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:55 pm
Seinlo wrote:Sanabel wrote:BTW, How do a few million Arabs(who are hardly homogenous themselves) control black Africans that outnumber them 3 to 1 without any rebellions?
Islam spread through western and eastern Africa, and as high up as the Horn of Africa, and marriages, conquest, trade, assimilation, and Yemenization do a lot. There is also the fact that more than the IRL amount of ethnic hybrids exist. There /are/ rebellions, but many see the Rasulid dynasty as legitimate rulers because of their control over the Hejaz. I am sure there are other reasons, but my brain is really addled right now.
by Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:56 pm
Tracian Empire wrote:Seinlo wrote:
It's a broad question, but I barely know anythingabour Roman law. I'm going to open up another tab, and reread your app (why is this stuff not staying in my brain?! I have over 80% visual recall ;-; ), but I was wondering about things such as Romanization (in this case it would be called Yemenization) and what is allowed in that, legitimacy and inheritance (in terms offhe throne and nobility), and how rebellions are dealt with. My nation won't have political parties (they're illegal), so would that be a difference between our nation, or a similarity?
Roman law? I haven't went too much in details, but the Constitution reigns supreme, and Roman citizens enjoy a broad variety of freedoms and rights.
As for Romanization, it's pretty simple. It starts with the language, then the culture and lately the religion. Everything is allowed as long as its not turned into a genocide, but generally the Romans try to manipulate those who are Romanized.
Legitimacy and inheritance? For the throne, it can be passed to any member of the ruling dynasty as long as they're purple born. The Emperor decides, and usually raises his successor to the rank of Caesar, so that his successor usually co-rules the Empire for a while before properly becoming the Emperor. If the Emperor doesn't make a decision before death, or has no successors, the Senate decides the next ruler. As for the nobility, it's pretty standard.
Rebellions are drown in blood. Anything threatening the authority of the Emperor, the Senate, and the People of Rome doesn't deserve to exist.
For Rome, it's not that political parties are forbidden, they simply don't exist. The coalitions are the closest equivalent.
by Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:57 pm
Sanabel wrote:Seinlo wrote:
Islam spread through western and eastern Africa, and as high up as the Horn of Africa, and marriages, conquest, trade, assimilation, and Yemenization do a lot. There is also the fact that more than the IRL amount of ethnic hybrids exist. There /are/ rebellions, but many see the Rasulid dynasty as legitimate rulers because of their control over the Hejaz. I am sure there are other reasons, but my brain is really addled right now.
But how does Islam have the centripetal factor it had IRL without being as well defined? And what is Yemenization?
Ethnic hybrids? What does that even mean in this context? Just because some black Swahili speaking people married some Arabs or something, it doesn't mean that everyone's automatically loyal to Yemen. Why should they be loyal to the Rasulids? They are just another repressive monarchy. They aren't caliph or anything like that.
by Sanabel » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:06 pm
Seinlo wrote:Sanabel wrote:But how does Islam have the centripetal factor it had IRL without being as well defined? And what is Yemenization?
Ethnic hybrids? What does that even mean in this context? Just because some black Swahili speaking people married some Arabs or something, it doesn't mean that everyone's automatically loyal to Yemen. Why should they be loyal to the Rasulids? They are just another repressive monarchy. They aren't caliph or anything like that.
They /are/ Caliph, though. We control the Hejaz region, and Elerian and Mauristan are almost certainly going to have their nations recotnize my leader as Caliph.
by Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:07 pm
Sanabel wrote:Seinlo wrote:
They /are/ Caliph, though. We control the Hejaz region, and Elerian and Mauristan are almost certainly going to have their nations recotnize my leader as Caliph.
I see that they are labeled "Caliph," but you made it seem like yourself that what Yemen practices is hardly Islam.
by Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:12 pm
Sanabel wrote:Seinlo wrote:
They /are/ Caliph, though. We control the Hejaz region, and Elerian and Mauristan are almost certainly going to have their nations recotnize my leader as Caliph.
I see that they are labeled "Caliph," but you made it seem like yourself that what Yemen practices is hardly Islam.
by Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:14 pm
Tracian Empire wrote:Sanabel wrote:I see that they are labeled "Caliph," but you made it seem like yourself that what Yemen practices is hardly Islam.
I don't see the Caliph living in a country proclaiming itself to be secular and using Roman law, the law of the Empire that crushed Islam in the past.
by Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:15 pm
by Sanabel » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:16 pm
Seinlo wrote:Tracian Empire wrote:I don't see the Caliph living in a country proclaiming itself to be secular and using Roman law, the law of the Empire that crushed Islam in the past.
It's not secular. The law is. The Caliphate still exists as the religious and spirirutal leader of Muslims everywhere. Besides, the crushing blows dealt and such interaction with Romans would lead to adoption of some things. Then there's the fact that Danceria suggested the Roman law thing, so I'll ask themabout that, since Danceria helped me create this nation.
by Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:16 pm
Seinlo wrote:Tracian Empire wrote:I don't see the Caliph living in a country proclaiming itself to be secular and using Roman law, the law of the Empire that crushed Islam in the past.
It's not secular. The law is. The Caliphate still exists as the religious and spirirutal leader of Muslims everywhere. Besides, the crushing blows dealt and such interaction with Romans would lead to adoption of some things. Then there's the fact that Danceria suggested the Roman law thing, so I'll ask themabout that, since Danceria helped me create this nation.
by Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:20 pm
Tracian Empire wrote:Seinlo wrote:
It's not secular. The law is. The Caliphate still exists as the religious and spirirutal leader of Muslims everywhere. Besides, the crushing blows dealt and such interaction with Romans would lead to adoption of some things. Then there's the fact that Danceria suggested the Roman law thing, so I'll ask themabout that, since Danceria helped me create this nation.
And that doesn't work. You can't have your Sultan be the Caliph in a secular nation, or you can't be exactly secular.
Sanabel wrote:Seinlo wrote:
It's not secular. The law is. The Caliphate still exists as the religious and spirirutal leader of Muslims everywhere. Besides, the crushing blows dealt and such interaction with Romans would lead to adoption of some things. Then there's the fact that Danceria suggested the Roman law thing, so I'll ask themabout that, since Danceria helped me create this nation.
So it is not a caliphate? That brings up the previous question then, on how the empire is held together, and rebellions are prevented, if the government isnt an islamic one.
by Sanabel » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:22 pm
Seinlo wrote:Tracian Empire wrote:And that doesn't work. You can't have your Sultan be the Caliph in a secular nation, or you can't be exactly secular.Sanabel wrote:So it is not a caliphate? That brings up the previous question then, on how the empire is held together, and rebellions are prevented, if the government isnt an islamic one.
I suppose you guys are right. Perhaps an implementation of Sharia law, but maintaining my progressive economic and foreign policies? I mean, the Ottoman Empire had a fairly happy populace despite having Sharia law, though this is probably because of their migration and tolerance policies. I'll do what they did, and have both secular and religious courts
by Novacom » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:25 pm
Seinlo wrote:Tracian Empire wrote:I don't see the Caliph living in a country proclaiming itself to be secular and using Roman law, the law of the Empire that crushed Islam in the past.
It's not secular. The law is. The Caliphate still exists as the religious and spirirutal leader of Muslims everywhere. Besides, the crushing blows dealt and such interaction with Romans would lead to adoption of some things. Then there's the fact that Danceria suggested the Roman law thing, so I'll ask themabout that, since Danceria helped me create this nation.
by Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:26 pm
Sanabel wrote:Seinlo wrote:
I suppose you guys are right. Perhaps an implementation of Sharia law, but maintaining my progressive economic and foreign policies? I mean, the Ottoman Empire had a fairly happy populace despite having Sharia law, though this is probably because of their migration and tolerance policies. I'll do what they did, and have both secular and religious courts
Sharia and progressive economics most certainly go hand in hand.
by Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:28 pm
by Sanabel » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:29 pm
by Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:30 pm
Novacom wrote:Seinlo wrote:
It's not secular. The law is. The Caliphate still exists as the religious and spirirutal leader of Muslims everywhere. Besides, the crushing blows dealt and such interaction with Romans would lead to adoption of some things. Then there's the fact that Danceria suggested the Roman law thing, so I'll ask themabout that, since Danceria helped me create this nation.
You are aware that the Caliphate may not actually exist, the absolute mangling could mean that he could be a disgraced prophet, his words revered yet his actions reviled, I'll be blunt, your going to have to choose SOMETHING and stick to it, you can't jump around and pick things that sound good and throw them into a melting pot, not without making it convincing, cherry picking the best and ignoring the downsides doesn't work.
Also having Danceria do a lot of the leg work for you isn't the best of ideas, given you need to RP this, not him, hence why I haven't gotten overly involved with your request for ideas, there's a lot of possibilities but then it wouldn't be your nation, I'd in essence be doing your app for you which I nor anybody else would/should do.
by Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:32 pm
by Sanabel » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:35 pm
Seinlo wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire#Law
I don't care what you say. Secular and religious law can exist at the same time, because it's been done before. Now stop nitpicking and looking for ways to make sure I don't have anything. I don't like that. You keep on closing in, and changing what I can do or be, and it's making me feel like there are walls around me, that I don't have choices, and it just isn't appealing.
by Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:36 pm
by Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:36 pm
Sanabel wrote:Seinlo wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire#Law
I don't care what you say. Secular and religious law can exist at the same time, because it's been done before. Now stop nitpicking and looking for ways to make sure I don't have anything. I don't like that. You keep on closing in, and changing what I can do or be, and it's making me feel like there are walls around me, that I don't have choices, and it just isn't appealing.
different courts for different religions.
by Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:37 pm
Sanabel wrote:Seinlo wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire#Law
I don't care what you say. Secular and religious law can exist at the same time, because it's been done before. Now stop nitpicking and looking for ways to make sure I don't have anything. I don't like that. You keep on closing in, and changing what I can do or be, and it's making me feel like there are walls around me, that I don't have choices, and it just isn't appealing.
different courts for different religions.
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