1870 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC][REBOOT]

[Seinlo]

With my borders with and close proximity to Rome, as well as the nature of the guidance, I'm assuming that my nation would have more occur than assimilating some Roman culture and law. Could someone tell mw what those would be? I mean, I get that we would have been the ones to give them knowledge and thw like, but what would happen to /us/?

[Second Helghan Empire]

Wouldn't that then also de-power asia?

also OP-board problem arrizes, If we start the precedent of using guidances to target regions as a negative force then where does that end?

Tyrannia at least claimed that since the Oriental group targeted Europe in general, the Roman group could merely replace the Western tech group in their guidance and keep everything as it was.

As for that, I do believe that this isn't a precedent. It merely solves a historical paradox, that has been pointed multiple times. Without Islam and the Byzantines, Western Europe would have lacked behind technologically.

But I also personally don't know what to say, it makes me feel rather bad to be suddenly thrown into the position of the nation that dictates the definition of modern, all while pushing Hansa down.

I feel like it will be easy enough for a Western european nation to do what this guidance does and simply say that all changed when whatever the guidance is about happened. An annoyingly endless cycle.

[Tracian Empire]

Tyrannia at least claimed that since the Oriental group targeted Europe in general, the Roman group could merely replace the Western tech group in their guidance and keep everything as it was.

As for that, I do believe that this isn't a precedent. It merely solves a historical paradox, that has been pointed multiple times. Without Islam and the Byzantines, Western Europe would have lacked behind technologically.

But I also personally don't know what to say, it makes me feel rather bad to be suddenly thrown into the position of the nation that dictates the definition of modern, all while pushing Hansa down.

I feel like it will be easy enough for a Western european nation to do what this guidance does and simply say that all changed when whatever the guidance is about happened. An annoyingly endless cycle.

Which is true. But unlike any possible future guidances, this one has a strong footing in history, and is attempting to fix a rather big paradox.

[Seinlo]

Thank you. I'm don't like my history, actually, but Danceria could help me expand it, and so could other knowledgable people. Fixing the things with Islam and such is another issue entirely, but I will get to it.

Just be aware that Novacom said that a guidance was not required for retconning the schism from history (or was it sole other OP? I don't remember, it was really late).

I would like to explain that these aren't your standard mercenaries. There are corporations and companies of mercenaries and privateers operating from the Rasuli Empire (or is it Rasul? I need to figure that out), using it as a safe-haven, and having been granted rights such as being served before foreign mercenaries, a safe-haven, and some other things, and though largely independent the law requires that the state provide them jaws, whether they arebeing contracted by the state itself, or some international third party (the circumstances in which their organizations were founded makes this so, as does the hope of the state to prevent them from fighting against them). They are a part of the economy, and mercenary work is seen as an admirable occupatioj most of the time, especially for those that have their weapons purchased by the state (there is a list of approved weapons and weapons types to avoid my nation ending up with a mercenary army using outdated weapons). I also think that I may have included artillerists, or auxiliary positions in the mercenary corps in that number, but I'm not entirely sure. Not all of them are citizens of my nation either, as we have interactions with foreigners that have established an organization in the nation, and I might edit it so that there is an even mixture.

I can't say much about Islam, but your history contains things that haven't been properly discussed yet, hence why that will probably have to be modified.

And in regards to that, my opinion still remains. Having more than half of the total of your military forces as mercenaries is pretty unlikely, rather reckless since they can turn on you easily, and more than that, it would be a huge strain on your economy. Hence why I would suggest lowering them considerably, and adding the option that your nation would be able to hire that many mercenaries in the case of a big war, constantly keeping over 200,000 mercenaries is pretty impossible.

Alrighty. I'll edit it!

[Tracian Empire]

With my borders with and close proximity to Rome, as well as the nature of the guidance, I'm assuming that my nation would have more occur than assimilating some Roman culture and law. Could someone tell mw what those would be? I mean, I get that we would have been the ones to give them knowledge and thw like, but what would happen to /us/?

Difficult to say. You are Muslim, and there is a desert between us.

[Second Helghan Empire]

I feel like it will be easy enough for a Western european nation to do what this guidance does and simply say that all changed when whatever the guidance is about happened. An annoyingly endless cycle.

Which is true. But unlike any possible future guidances, this one has a strong footing in history, and is attempting to fix a rather big paradox.

I seem to fail at seeing why it is a paradox, Islam still spread to africa, and could have spread ideas into europe from the west, as paper possibly did in Spain and france.

[Novacom]

I'm of the opinion it would given Oscal's song Guidance mentions Oriental and Europe were EQUAL.

I'd say it's balanced by the fact you get ONE Guidance (with mini ones being earnable depending on events...), so if you want to use it to be negative then you can, as it is, it's mainly been used to even the playing field and put the Islamic world (such that it is) and Europe on a more level playing field. The possibility for them to be used negatively was always a thing and I'd dare wager some of the existing Guidances have Negative side effects for players and regions as well.

We as an OP board need to come to a quick consensus. I was told by Trace everyone has two guidances unless they already used one. However I do prefer the idea of us all starting at one with this roleplay and the previous guidances remaining in effect as I believe is what I am gathering is your position.

Osc floated the idea of expanding the Guidance system with a whole bunch of extra things like inter player Guidances and giving people a second Guidance as well, I think at present we should stick with the BASIC one Guidance each and once we're up and running properly again before allowing additional ones floating around. As for previous Guidances remaining in effect, I don't see anybody arguing against the old ones being carried over, the only ones I'd torpedo specifically would be the The Will of August, Jacobins and Blanquists and Communards, Oh My!, Potential diplomatic recognition by Britain? and elements of The Achaemenid Collapse specifically the one mandating for an Israel.

[Tracian Empire]

Which is true. But unlike any possible future guidances, this one has a strong footing in history, and is attempting to fix a rather big paradox.

I seem to fail at seeing why it is a paradox, Islam still spread to africa, and could have spread ideas into europe from the west, as paper possibly did in Spain and france.

That would still not account for what the Crusades did. It also wouldn't count for the Greek migration that directly helped the Renaissance.

[Tracian Empire]

We as an OP board need to come to a quick consensus. I was told by Trace everyone has two guidances unless they already used one. However I do prefer the idea of us all starting at one with this roleplay and the previous guidances remaining in effect as I believe is what I am gathering is your position.

Osc floated the idea of expanding the Guidance system with a whole bunch of extra things like inter player Guidances and giving people a second Guidance as well, I think at present we should stick with the BASIC one Guidance each and once we're up and running properly again before allowing additional ones floating around. As for previous Guidances remaining in effect, I don't see anybody arguing against the old ones being carried over, the only ones I'd torpedo specifically would be the The Will of August, Jacobins and Blanquists and Communards, Oh My!, Potential diplomatic recognition by Britain? and elements of The Achaemenid Collapse specifically the one mandating for an Israel.

I agree.

[Cymrea]

Does this Roman Tech Group thing raise the AH Roman territories to an IC-contemporary level with industrialised Europe? Or is it attempting to establish RTG as superior to European industrialisation due to being a continuous entity?

I'm all for having the eastern and western Roman empires be at an equal level to the rest of Europe, rather than falling behind as they were in the RL time period, but to artificially devise a guidance by which they have superior tech - particularly following the actual IC RP effort made my myself and others to advance our tech - seems a bit unfair.

Tl;dr - Romans on equal footing with industrialised Europe good, artificially superior through paragraph-long guidance bad.

I agree that it might be unfair, but it does make sense. It was a paradox from the very beginning. So while I do believe that the Roman tech should be above the European tech, I don't think that the difference should be too high due to the IC efforts of others, and I also don't think that the Western tech should be bashed too much.

The reason Italy and that area fell behind initially was an adherence to craftsmanship over industrialisation. Apprenticeships and master craftsmanships that took years of study and experience to hone - produced tremendously gorgeous and valuable products. But low- and unskilled labour at an assembly line simply outproduced and out-innovated for long enough that it took quite a bit of time and effort to get level with the industrial powers. Italy still isn't on the same out-put level as UK and Germany and France, as an example.

So, to have changed that, so that Rome both east and west industrialised with the rest of Europe instead of not is perfectly fine. Equal footing is all good. But I don't believe that there's any rationale for making Roman tech superior.

[Second Helghan Empire]

I seem to fail at seeing why it is a paradox, Islam still spread to africa, and could have spread ideas into europe from the west, as paper possibly did in Spain and france.

That would still not account for what the Crusades did. It also wouldn't count for the Greek migration that directly helped the Renaissance.

Well a greek migration could still easily be possible if they felt their culture weakened by a latin empire ruling them.

[Tracian Empire]

I agree that it might be unfair, but it does make sense. It was a paradox from the very beginning. So while I do believe that the Roman tech should be above the European tech, I don't think that the difference should be too high due to the IC efforts of others, and I also don't think that the Western tech should be bashed too much.

The reason Italy and that area fell behind initially was an adherence to craftsmanship over industrialisation. Apprenticeships and master craftsmanships that took years of study and experience to hone - produced tremendously gorgeous and valuable products. But low- and unskilled labour at an assembly line simply outproduced and out-innovated for long enough that it took quite a bit of time and effort to get level with the industrial powers. Italy still isn't on the same out-put level as UK and Germany and France, as an example.

So, to have changed that, so that Rome both east and west industrialised with the rest of Europe instead of not is perfectly fine. Equal footing is all good. But I don't believe that there's any rationale for making Roman tech superior.

We're talking about way back in the period of the Renaissance. About how the lack of European contact with Islam, and the lack of a fall of Constantinople to spark the Renaissance would theoretically make Europe to lag behind.

[Seinlo]

With my borders with and close proximity to Rome, as well as the nature of the guidance, I'm assuming that my nation would have more occur than assimilating some Roman culture and law. Could someone tell mw what those would be? I mean, I get that we would have been the ones to give them knowledge and thw like, but what would happen to /us/?

Everyone is so worried about insuring the dominance of silly little Europe that they are ignoring my questions.

[Tracian Empire]

That would still not account for what the Crusades did. It also wouldn't count for the Greek migration that directly helped the Renaissance.

Well a greek migration could still easily be possible if they felt their culture weakened by a latin empire ruling them.

Incredibly unlikely. Not only was that Latinization during the early years of the Eastern Roman Empire, when the West was a pot filled with barbarians, death, and more death, which would stop any sane person from wanting to emigrate there, but at that point in time, even in real life, the Greeks considered themselves to be Romans, and spoke Latin. I merely changed a few policies of the Empire, and that would result in the same cultural mix happening as in real life, but with Latin, not Greek on top.

[Tracian Empire]

With my borders with and close proximity to Rome, as well as the nature of the guidance, I'm assuming that my nation would have more occur than assimilating some Roman culture and law. Could someone tell mw what those would be? I mean, I get that we would have been the ones to give them knowledge and thw like, but what would happen to /us/?

Everyone is so worried about insuring the dominance of silly little Europe that they are ignoring my questions.

Try to look carefully a few posts above.

[Novacom]

Which is true. But unlike any possible future guidances, this one has a strong footing in history, and is attempting to fix a rather big paradox.

I seem to fail at seeing why it is a paradox, Islam still spread to africa, and could have spread ideas into europe from the west, as paper possibly did in Spain and france.

You are aware that shoving Islam back in the Arabian Deserts making it spread elsewhere also meant that Islam was never in a position to itself develop or be in a position to share or be used by the Europeans, as we're in the situation of pretty much Islam being Sub-Saharan Africa if that, and parts of Asia.

It was the proximity of Islam as well, as a specific example, Human Di-section was an INCREDIBLE rarity in Medieval Europe, it was however allowed in Islamic Medical schools to European "doctors" would journey to them to partake in something that they would otherwise not have been able to. Shove Islam that far away and also break what developed so no Islamic golden Age, No House of Learning, none of that. Granted some of these things would in time be discovered/done by someone else but by the fact it took more time would have done the damage.

[Tracian Empire]

I seem to fail at seeing why it is a paradox, Islam still spread to africa, and could have spread ideas into europe from the west, as paper possibly did in Spain and france.

You are aware that shoving Islam back in the Arabian Deserts making it spread elsewhere also meant that Islam was never in a position to itself develop or be in a position to share or be used by the Europeans, as we're in the situation of pretty much Islam being Sub-Saharan Africa if that, and parts of Asia.

It was the proximity of Islam as well, as a specific example, Human Di-section was an INCREDIBLE rarity in Medieval Europe, it was however allowed in Islamic Medical schools to European "doctors" would journey to them to partake in something that they would otherwise not have been able to. Shove Islam that far away and also break what developed so no Islamic golden Age, No House of Learning, none of that. Granted some of these things would in time be discovered/done by someone else but by the fact it took more time would have done the damage.

Which is the main point.

A compromise might be the solution though.

[Cymrea]

The reason Italy and that area fell behind initially was an adherence to craftsmanship over industrialisation. Apprenticeships and master craftsmanships that took years of study and experience to hone - produced tremendously gorgeous and valuable products. But low- and unskilled labour at an assembly line simply outproduced and out-innovated for long enough that it took quite a bit of time and effort to get level with the industrial powers. Italy still isn't on the same out-put level as UK and Germany and France, as an example.

So, to have changed that, so that Rome both east and west industrialised with the rest of Europe instead of not is perfectly fine. Equal footing is all good. But I don't believe that there's any rationale for making Roman tech superior.

We're talking about way back in the period of the Renaissance. About how the lack of European contact with Islam, and the lack of a fall of Constantinople to spark the Renaissance would theoretically make Europe to lag behind.

I suppose acting as an historical roadblock might help, especially in hindsight. Based on that, I will submit that religious and pagan migration to avoid a Christian/Catholic persecution - or even just influences - would have a tolerant Cambria receiving some innovative thinkers from the Near East.

[Second Helghan Empire]

I seem to fail at seeing why it is a paradox, Islam still spread to africa, and could have spread ideas into europe from the west, as paper possibly did in Spain and france.

You are aware that shoving Islam back in the Arabian Deserts making it spread elsewhere also meant that Islam was never in a position to itself develop or be in a position to share or be used by the Europeans, as we're in the situation of pretty much Islam being Sub-Saharan Africa if that, and parts of Asia.

It was the proximity of Islam as well, as a specific example, Human Di-section was an INCREDIBLE rarity in Medieval Europe, it was however allowed in Islamic Medical schools to European "doctors" would journey to them to partake in something that they would otherwise not have been able to. Shove Islam that far away and also break what developed so no Islamic golden Age, No House of Learning, none of that. Granted some of these things would in time be discovered/done by someone else but by the fact it took more time would have done the damage.

Then why would rome have superior tech due to the connection to Islam?

[Tracian Empire]

We're talking about way back in the period of the Renaissance. About how the lack of European contact with Islam, and the lack of a fall of Constantinople to spark the Renaissance would theoretically make Europe to lag behind.

I suppose acting as an historical roadblock might help, especially in hindsight. Based on that, I will submit that religious and pagan migration to avoid a Christian/Catholic persecution - or even just influences - would have a tolerant Cambria receiving some innovative thinkers from the Near East.

It's not only that. As Novacom said, Islam has been crushed and pushed back. Which means that any sort of contact between the West and Muslim nations would be rather difficult, especially since there is no Muslim nation to take the role that the Caliphate had in real life.

But yeah, we should probably compromise.

[Tracian Empire]

You are aware that shoving Islam back in the Arabian Deserts making it spread elsewhere also meant that Islam was never in a position to itself develop or be in a position to share or be used by the Europeans, as we're in the situation of pretty much Islam being Sub-Saharan Africa if that, and parts of Asia.

It was the proximity of Islam as well, as a specific example, Human Di-section was an INCREDIBLE rarity in Medieval Europe, it was however allowed in Islamic Medical schools to European "doctors" would journey to them to partake in something that they would otherwise not have been able to. Shove Islam that far away and also break what developed so no Islamic golden Age, No House of Learning, none of that. Granted some of these things would in time be discovered/done by someone else but by the fact it took more time would have done the damage.

Then why would rome have superior tech due to the connection to Islam?

Because unlike the West which fell into the Dark Ages and lost the knowledge of Antiquity, the Byzantines maintained it, and constantly remained more advanced than the West in countless aspects for most of their history. The transfer of some of that knowledge through the migration that was caused by the fall of Constantinople marked the Renaissance.

[Cymrea]

I suppose acting as an historical roadblock might help, especially in hindsight. Based on that, I will submit that religious and pagan migration to avoid a Christian/Catholic persecution - or even just influences - would have a tolerant Cambria receiving some innovative thinkers from the Near East.

It's not only that. As Novacom said, Islam has been crushed and pushed back. Which means that any sort of contact between the West and Muslim nations would be rather difficult, especially since there is no Muslim nation to take the role that the Caliphate had in real life.

But yeah, we should probably compromise.

Tangentially related, I should probably write up a formal guidance pertaining to the pagan revival in Cambria. It's largely included in my history, but the guidance could suggest affected foreign relations.

[Danceria]

That feel when you wake up and realize that due to your distance from Glorious True Rome, you will never be an industrialized power without sacrificing your badass Runic dialect.

I-I'm stil c-cool to you guys r-right...? ;_;

[Novacom]

You are aware that shoving Islam back in the Arabian Deserts making it spread elsewhere also meant that Islam was never in a position to itself develop or be in a position to share or be used by the Europeans, as we're in the situation of pretty much Islam being Sub-Saharan Africa if that, and parts of Asia.

It was the proximity of Islam as well, as a specific example, Human Di-section was an INCREDIBLE rarity in Medieval Europe, it was however allowed in Islamic Medical schools to European "doctors" would journey to them to partake in something that they would otherwise not have been able to. Shove Islam that far away and also break what developed so no Islamic golden Age, No House of Learning, none of that. Granted some of these things would in time be discovered/done by someone else but by the fact it took more time would have done the damage.

Then why would rome have superior tech due to the connection to Islam?

The other Aspect of things, no sack of Constantinople given what the sack did to compliment Islam with all those manuscripts and the like, meaning he'd have a bit of a leg up, perhaps narrowing the tech "gap" Rome however would be positioned to benefit from things comming down the silk road via trade while it lasted.

Does this Roman Tech Group thing raise the AH Roman territories to an IC-contemporary level with industrialised Europe? Or is it attempting to establish RTG as superior to European industrialisation due to being a continuous entity?

I'm all for having the eastern and western Roman empires be at an equal level to the rest of Europe, rather than falling behind as they were in the RL time period, but to artificially devise a guidance by which they have superior tech - particularly following the actual IC RP effort made my myself and others to advance our tech - seems a bit unfair.

Tl;dr - Romans on equal footing with industrialised Europe good, artificially superior through paragraph-long guidance bad.

It's not an artificially devised Guidance it's one based on removing one specific event which spirals outwards to affect things more than realised, I take no pleasure in the lovely argument especially as it weakens a close ally, however I have the Neutral Hat on and have put any interested stake I would have in a box elsewhere and seem to be the only one who has

[Cymrea]

Then why would rome have superior tech due to the connection to Islam?

Because unlike the West which fell into the Dark Ages and lost the knowledge of Antiquity, the Byzantines maintained it, and constantly remained more advanced than the West in countless aspects for most of their history. The transfer of some of that knowledge through the migration that was caused by the fall of Constantinople marked the Renaissance.

The Dark Ages was the direct result of the Church suppressing education or even literacy among any but it's higher echelons. Even monarchs were often illiterate. With the only literates adhering strictly to religious doctrine, there's not a lot of innovation. If the Byzantines didn't do that then knowledges spread.