Osiris | Danburg Seized!

[Cormactopia II]

If you expect any reforms that will make the Delegate less powerful and Osiris more democratic, you don't know NK very well. He started spouting nonsense about Francoism in his inaugural address for a reason.

Now, now. Let's not go criticising the doctrine that's led to the most stable of GCR governments.

I didn't say Francoism was nonsense -- it's one of the more interesting NationStates ideologies -- I said NK's ramblings were nonsense. Just to be clear.

[Syberis]

When do I get my Empire hat, as NK's Heir Apparent? Just curious.

[Cormactopia II]

When do I get my Empire hat, as NK's Heir Apparent? Just curious.

If you don't already have it, expect to be replaced as Heir Apparent sometime before he abdicates. I was the one who suggested you so that, alone, probably means your days are numbered.

[Glen-Rhodes]

When do I get my Empire hat, as NK's Heir Apparent? Just curious.

Prediction: You will never take over for NK. My money's on Neenee

[Cormactopia II]

When do I get my Empire hat, as NK's Heir Apparent? Just curious.

Prediction: You will never take over for NK. My money's on Neenee

She's busy trying to take over TWP. They've made her a Guardian there. It will probably be Dali, he has suddenly reappeared.

At least if it's Dali we can have the comfort that he will probably fail to log in for several weeks until his nation ceases to exist.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Prediction: You will never take over for NK. My money's on Neenee

She's busy trying to take over TWP. They've made her a Guardian there.

I wondered when someone would resurrect that tired old chesnut.

[Cormactopia II]

She's busy trying to take over TWP. They've made her a Guardian there.

I wondered when someone would resurrect that tired old chesnut.

You can always count on me! I like to get my predictions in early so I can really say "I told you so" with gusto when it inevitably happens.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

I wondered when someone would resurrect that tired old chesnut.

You can always count on me! I like to get my predictions in early so I can really say "I told you so" with gusto when it inevitably happens.

Cormac mate, you throw enough stuff around some of it will come true, eventually.

[Pierconium]

Lots of assumptions about manipulations in here.

I for one welcome our new overlords.

And welcome Osiris to the GCR Sovereignty Accords.

[Dalimbar]

Prediction: You will never take over for NK. My money's on Neenee

She's busy trying to take over TWP. They've made her a Guardian there. It will probably be Dali, he has suddenly reappeared.

At least if it's Dali we can have the comfort that he will probably fail to log in for several weeks until his nation ceases to exist.

I like my present state of retirement, thanks.

[Solorni]

She's busy trying to take over TWP. They've made her a Guardian there. It will probably be Dali, he has suddenly reappeared.

At least if it's Dali we can have the comfort that he will probably fail to log in for several weeks until his nation ceases to exist.

I like my present state of retirement, thanks.

We all know you're secretly NK!

[Unibot III]

I refer you to the many times in this thread I've acknowledged that I made a mistake in trusting them and in not listening to those who warned me not to trust them. Yes, I am surprised. If I had seen this coming obviously I wouldn't have let NK succeed me.

I am in the process of redrafting this response for the third time... because I can't see how you were surprised. It was the natural thing for him to do and made the most sense to happen once you were politically vulnerable.

It will be a surprise for you. It certainly was for me the first time it happened.

@Unibot: I do always love our chats, but I have long since stopped trying to warn people about anything of importance. I was character assassinated in the Osiran legislature when I opposed allowing Empire to return to Osiris in January, accused of fear-mongering, pushing foreign agendas and seeking to subvert Osiran security and democracy in favour of unnamed players.

I'm nonchalant because I warned people against this and was ignored. Many people warned Osiris against this, and even Koth warned against letting Empire back in because we feared something like this would happen. I am no longer emotionally invested in Osiris, but I do lament that this has happened as it was avoidable.

Alas, people chose to shoot the messenger, and made a game out of doing so.

Sorry. I completely relate and understand with being exhausted with countering the obvious machinations - it's tiring that the right people rarely listen in these cases. *sighs*

I also miss our chats. Especially the FA gossip.

[Tinhampton]

Dali:	NK:
"Dalimbar, Delegate / Pharaoh (Ret.) of Osiris Delegate (Ret.) of The North Pacific Member of The Empire Member of the Ex-Feeder Tyrant Club"	"Pharaoh of the Osiris Fraternal Order Delegate (Ret.), The North Pacific Card-Carrying Member of the Ex-Feeder Tyrants Club Propagandist Extraordinaire of The Empire"

I like my present state of retirement, thanks.

We all know you're secretly NK!

After all, just look at the sigs (see right) - both count themselves as having been delegates of Osiris and TNP, both claim to be in the EXFTC, and both have been in The Empire...

[Cormactopia II]

She's busy trying to take over TWP. They've made her a Guardian there. It will probably be Dali, he has suddenly reappeared.

At least if it's Dali we can have the comfort that he will probably fail to log in for several weeks until his nation ceases to exist.

I like my present state of retirement, thanks.

You aren't retired.

[Dalimbar]

As you pointed out earlier, dear, I come and go as I please. I don't have an official position nor any real responsibility. Does that mean I'm active? I'm more of the drunk uncle who shows up from time to time.

[Cormactopia II]

I don't have an official position nor any real responsibility.

Of course you don't yet.

[Consular]

On the one hand, it is insisted that I shouldn't have been Pharaoh at all and that my term as Pharaoh was bad for Osiris. On the other, it is insisted that it was reckless and irresponsible for me to step down after seven months -- nearly the equivalent of two Delegate terms in TNP, more than two Pharaoh terms under Osiris' previous system. My detractors simultaneously insist that I was an illegitimate tyrant and that I was not an illegitimate tyrant long enough. On the one hand, it is insisted that NK is taking Osiris on a better trajectory and he is given credit for that. On the other, it is insisted that anything bad NK does or might do is my fault for appointing him because I should have known better. My detractors simultaneously insist that NK is great, but whenever he isn't great, it's entirely my fault. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

I'm pretty sure I've literally never said NK is great, nor have I said he's taking Osiris in a better direction. I get that perhaps you're responding to more than just me on this point, but I'm not seeing where I've tried to "have it both ways" at all.

I believed the Empire four when they said they had changed and when they said they no longer held a grudge for the things that happened in 2013.

Well that was awfully silly of you wasn't it.

All of that was a mistake. I believed they could change and had changed. I bought their excuses for their behavior in 2013. I now see that they are either incapable of change or at least unwilling to change, and that they will always be the way they have always been. I should have listened to the many people who were telling me that all along. I'm not sure what else you want me to say about it. You're acting like I'm not acknowledging that this was a mistake I made and for which I'm primarily responsible, when in fact I've repeatedly acknowledged that every time it's been pointed out.

Fair enough. I suppose I just expected someone with your experience and competence to not make such a mistake. Your decision was made either knowing the danger (which is awfully suspicious to be honest) or not (which is unexpectedly willfully reckless of you).

Continue to irrationally blame me for everything that is or has ever been wrong with Osiris all you want. But every region or individual that is celebrating what they see as my comeuppance should remember exactly what Empire was like before, and why the world was virtually united in supporting Venico, Koth, and I in purging them from Osiris in December 2013. They are still exactly as they always were. What you disliked about them before is exactly what is making a comeback in Osiris right now. When Empire tears Osiris apart again, they will be destroying an entire community comprised of people many of you like, not just destroying me or my legacy in Osiris. So I would just caution TNP, TSP, Lazarus, Europeia, Albion, et al., to consider that before jumping aboard the Empire Express simply because NK is not me. You're right, he isn't me. He's much worse. I know most of you don't believe someone being much worse than me is possible, but that's because most gameplayers have short memories.

I don't understand this paragraph. Like, yes, we know all this, we're quite aware Empire aren't the best chaps, and we can see what's happening in Osiris. That's exactly why we're wondering why you let this happen -- It's pretty much why we're having this conversation. I'm not "irrationally" blaming you for everything that has been wrong with Osiris, I'm blaming you rather specifically for letting Empire back in, which is a decision that, try as I might, I really just cannot for the life of me understand.

You're also really not as a big a villain in our eyes as you seem to think you are.

[New Rogernomics]

On the one hand, it is insisted that I shouldn't have been Pharaoh at all and that my term as Pharaoh was bad for Osiris. On the other, it is insisted that it was reckless and irresponsible for me to step down after seven months -- nearly the equivalent of two Delegate terms in TNP, more than two Pharaoh terms under Osiris' previous system. My detractors simultaneously insist that I was an illegitimate tyrant and that I was not an illegitimate tyrant long enough. On the one hand, it is insisted that NK is taking Osiris on a better trajectory and he is given credit for that. On the other, it is insisted that anything bad NK does or might do is my fault for appointing him because I should have known better. My detractors simultaneously insist that NK is great, but whenever he isn't great, it's entirely my fault. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Regardless of whether that was the case, you still gave up power, can't really blame people for saying 'hey you did x to Osiris' by appointing him/her. Sure there was someone else in Osiris, or even a Osiris dissident to hand power to.

[...]All of that was a mistake. I believed they could change and had changed. I bought their excuses for their behavior in 2013. I now see that they are either incapable of change or at least unwilling to change, and that they will always be the way they have always been. I should have listened to the many people who were telling me that all along. I'm not sure what else you want me to say about it. You're acting like I'm not acknowledging that this was a mistake I made and for which I'm primarily responsible, when in fact I've repeatedly acknowledged that every time it's been pointed out.

Brooding on that won't help anything, as it is clear that you don't have power in Osiris anymore or the ability to change things.

Continue to irrationally blame me for everything that is or has ever been wrong with Osiris all you want. But every region or individual that is celebrating what they see as my comeuppance should remember exactly what Empire was like before, and why the world was virtually united in supporting Venico, Koth, and I in purging them from Osiris in December 2013.

Osiris has never really had a 'golden era', and had issues well before any group like 'The Empire' came along. I don't think you can just pin it on one group in Osiris, but on years of not having the sort of government or community in Osiris that can avoid chaos, political feuds, and drama.

[...]When Empire tears Osiris apart again, they will be destroying an entire community comprised of people many of you like, not just destroying me or my legacy in Osiris. So I would just caution TNP, TSP, Lazarus, Europeia, Albion, et al., to consider that before jumping aboard the Empire Express simply because NK is not me. You're right, he isn't me. He's much worse. I know most of you don't believe someone being much worse than me is possible, but that's because most gameplayers have short memories.

Osiris clearly wasn't in a stable state to begin with, if you are arguing that those that now manage the government would allow the community to be 'destroyed', and if there is no recourse for residents of the region to disagree with government actions. Autocracy has its downsides that way, even if it allows you get a lot more done than if Osiris were more like 'TNP, TSP, Lazarus, Europeia, Albion, et al'. As for Lazarus itself, I don't think anyone would be pushing for more than embassy exchange with Osiris, and that would take time to work out.

[Cormactopia II]

Regardless of whether that was the case, you still gave up power, can't really blame people for saying 'hey you did x to Osiris' by appointing him/her. Sure there was someone else in Osiris, or even a Osiris dissident to hand power to.

What's strange, though, is how that level of responsibility seems only to apply to me. I don't recall, in 2013, anyone telling TSP that Milograd's coup was their fault because they elected him. I don't recall anyone ever saying that Stujenske's coup in Lazarus was his predecessor's fault because they appointed him. This isn't a coup, and it may never be one because an outright coup isn't necessary, but that isn't the point I'm making. From time to time, we trust the wrong people with power in the Feeders and Sinkers, and I'm not immune to that anymore than anyone else who has trusted the wrong person and been burned because of it.

Osiris has never really had a 'golden era', and had issues well before any group like 'The Empire' came along. I don't think you can just pin it on one group in Osiris, but on years of not having the sort of government or community in Osiris that can avoid chaos, political feuds, and drama.

Empire came to Osiris on day one, so I'm not sure how Osiris could have had problems before they came along given that it didn't exist before they came along. Dalimbar and Neo Kervoskia arrived on day one, Biyah less than a month later, and Neenee a little over a month after him, meaning that the entire group was present in Osiris within its first three months. Dalimbar was the first elected Pharaoh of the KRO and Neo Kervoskia was one of the first appointments to the all-powerful Council of Ma'at, which they designed so they could later exploit -- again, by their own admission. So you're just wrong that Osiris had problems before they got there.

Whether Osiris' issues can be pinned on any one group is debatable. What we do know, by their own admission, is that they bear heavy responsibility for setting the early hyper-political, manipulative, and contentious tone of the region. Osiris' fundamental problem isn't bad government. OFO 1.0, which failed as miserably as did the KRO, was a democratic republic that was virtually identical in its structure to TEP's government, and not all that different from democratic republics in TNP, Laz, etc. It was a massive improvement over the KRO in terms of democracy and the rule of law. But it failed. The problem in Osiris is a problem of community culture, which is a long-term, perhaps permanent problem that can't be fixed with more government changes. The form of government doesn't matter; the culture remains the same through every government change. Empire created that culture in 2011 and is fostering it again, because it is the kind of culture they find easy to politically exploit.

Osiris clearly wasn't in a stable state to begin with, if you are arguing that those that now manage the government would allow the community to be 'destroyed', and if there is no recourse for residents of the region to disagree with government actions. Autocracy has its downsides that way, even if it allows you get a lot more done than if Osiris were more like 'TNP, TSP, Lazarus, Europeia, Albion, et al'. As for Lazarus itself, I don't think anyone would be pushing for more than embassy exchange with Osiris, and that would take time to work out.

The problems in Osiris predate "autocracy." I know it's convenient for a particular narrative to blame Osiris' current problems on its current monarchist form of government, but these are the same problems Osiris faced under the KRO, an oligarchical republic masquerading as a democratic republic, and OFO 1.0, a democratic republic. So you're right that Osiris wasn't in a stable state to begin with, but that doesn't just date back to April 2016; it dates back to October 2011. Whatever people may think, I've done my best to fix it, and having repeatedly failed to fix it, I give up. Hopefully someone fixes it eventually. But good luck even trying to fix it while Empire is trying to take it back to what they see as the "golden age" of their political domination.

[Unibot III]

Whether Osiris' issues can be pinned on any one group is debatable. What we do know, by their own admission, is that they bear heavy responsibility for setting the early hyper-political, manipulative, and contentious tone of the region. Osiris' fundamental problem isn't bad government. OFO 1.0, which failed as miserably as did the KRO, was a democratic republic that was virtually identical in its structure to TEP's government, and not all that different from democratic republics in TNP, Laz, etc. It was a massive improvement over the KRO in terms of democracy and the rule of law. But it failed. The problem in Osiris is a problem of community culture, which is a long-term, perhaps permanent problem that can't be fixed with more government changes. The form of government doesn't matter; the culture remains the same through every government change. Empire created that culture in 2011 and is fostering it again, because it is the kind of culture they find easy to politically exploit.

I don't believe Osiris' lack of rule of law and democratic structures has ever helped it, it failed largely because you made sure it failed and personally ended it - and enabled a return for the Empire. But I would also agree there's a latent political culture there which enables and encourages Osirans to undermine the region's political stability.

Back in the day, I dunno around 2012-13, Osirans, who were perpetually being spoon-fed the idea that defenders were trying to take over Osiris, might have been surprised to learn I was invited to join Osiris many, many times and never had an ounce of interest in getting involved. I always refused. Truth was I didn't like the region, basically. Largely because I found the community was not nearly individualist enough to be healthy, it was emotionally manipulative, and its residents seemed nihilist and reveled, rather than abhorred, political drama - it was a seemingly never-ending palace banquet of masked courtiers and saboteurs.

I think Osiris will be more stable when it returns a democratic structure and its top residents value forthrightness, constructiveness, individuality and a rational society - stuff that is taken for granted in other regions. But I also believe many Osirans, deep down, are under the impression that Osiris wouldn't be Osiris without the drama, as if it's its divine destiny. But it's not. It's just a matter of the Empire and their associates playing a big role in the formation of Osiris. Osiris is free, in all reality, to be whatever its people desire.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Maybe Osiris can learn from TSP. The Coalition has survived coups and mile-high divisiveness, because at the highest rungs of power we have people who, even if they want to wield that power just to be powerful and influential, they do it for TSP as a whole. In my experience both inside and as an outsider viewer, many people in Osiris get into power to enact their own personal vision of what Osiris should be. That may sound like a distinction without a difference, but it is the difference between (e.g.) reforming the KRO versus abolishing it and replacing it with a totally new regime. The Coalition today is virtually unrecognizable from, say, 2012, but the point is that it's still the Coalition, and despite differences of opinion, the influential and powerful people of TSP are dedicated to keeping the Coalition in its own right.

This is all pretty much academic, though, because Empire has Osiris and they're the epitome of wielding power selfishly. Osiris probably won't ever succeed unless it's purged of these types of people and the community starts over from scratch as a true democracy.

[Reventus Koth]

Osiris probably won't ever succeed unless it's purged of these types of people and the community starts over from scratch as a true democracy.

Been there, done that. The OFO 1.0 was not as much of a failure as Cormac made it out to be -- it did what it needed to do for its time. The problem is that the people of Osiris want a strong autocrat to tell them what to do, they always have. With the caveat of course that they wish one day to be that all-powerful autocrat. This doesn't describe every Osiran ever, of course, but the region always seems to drift towards that crowd no matter how many times the reset button is pressed.

[Ikania]

Osiris probably won't ever succeed unless it's purged of these types of people and the community starts over from scratch as a true democracy.

Been there, done that. The OFO 1.0 was not as much of a failure as Cormac made it out to be -- it did what it needed to do for its time. The problem is that the people of Osiris want a strong autocrat to tell them what to do, they always have. With the caveat of course that they wish one day to be that all-powerful autocrat. This doesn't describe every Osiran ever, of course, but the region always seems to drift towards that crowd no matter how many times the reset button is pressed.

That clearly wasn't the case when the overwhelming majority of Osirans rejected that idea a few months ago before being forced into it.

[Reventus Koth]

Been there, done that. The OFO 1.0 was not as much of a failure as Cormac made it out to be -- it did what it needed to do for its time. The problem is that the people of Osiris want a strong autocrat to tell them what to do, they always have. With the caveat of course that they wish one day to be that all-powerful autocrat. This doesn't describe every Osiran ever, of course, but the region always seems to drift towards that crowd no matter how many times the reset button is pressed.

That clearly wasn't the case when the overwhelming majority of Osirans rejected that idea a few months ago before being forced into it.

The "overwhelming majority" of like 5 people who were useless anyway. That coup was addition by subtraction and you're living proof.

[Ikania]

That clearly wasn't the case when the overwhelming majority of Osirans rejected that idea a few months ago before being forced into it.

The "overwhelming majority" of like 5 people who were useless anyway. That coup was addition by subtraction and you're living proof.

Well would you look at that, active members of the region and its forum are considered part of the community. I think it was a little more than 5.