Osiris | Danburg Seized!

[Reventus Koth]

I don't need control. Osiris needs to be controlled or it falls to pieces. I play that part from time to time, though there have been others. Good luck to NK with that, it can be very demanding and is always completely thankless.

If it's a thank you you want, it's a thank you you'll get. Thank you, Cormac, for placing Osiris on this path, along which you've damaged ties and reputations. I'm sorry that NK wants adjust the trajectory of the region towards a better future.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Nor do a lot of the people in this thread, apparently. If you think Cormac's seven month Pharaoh term was full of him just going off and destroying ties and shit because he felt like it, you're drinking Kool-Aid. It's amazing how many people are suddenly experts on Osiris when it comes time for a good Cormac bashing.

[Ikania]

If it's a thank you you want, it's a thank you you'll get. Thank you, Cormac, for placing Osiris on this path, along which you've damaged ties and reputations. I'm sorry that NK wants adjust the trajectory of the region towards a better future.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Nor do a lot of the people in this thread, apparently. If you think Cormac's seven month Pharaoh term was full of him just going off and destroying ties and shit because he felt like it, you're drinking Kool-Aid. It's amazing how many people are suddenly experts on Osiris when it comes time for a good Cormac bashing.

I mean, that's kinda what Cormac does.

[Cormactopia II]

If it's a thank you you want, it's a thank you you'll get. Thank you, Cormac, for placing Osiris on this path, along which you've damaged ties and reputations. I'm sorry that NK wants adjust the trajectory of the region towards a better future.

There is nothing about NK's trajectory that will provide a better future. Osiris has been on this trajectory before. This path leads to chronic inactivity with bursts of toxicity to interrupt it. You can bash me all you want, but the fact remains that under my Delegacy, the community of Osiris was the most active it has ever been for the longest continuous period of time. That's just fact; it's born out by statistics that are easily accessible via the Osiris forum Admin CP, its Discord stats, etc.

I brought domestic stability and activity to Osiris. NK is bringing back-room politicking and restored relations with some of the most toxic regions in NationStates, and he will call that progress in restoring stability to Osiris' foreign affairs, like that matters at all. We'll see which course Osirans prefer in the long run. Not that it will matter. NK doesn't govern according to what anyone else wants, unless the "anyone else" in question are Neenee, Dali, and/or Biyah. Osiris has no idea what's in store for it. I hope Empire will get bored like they did in TEP and give the Delegacy to someone more deserving.

[Roavin]

So, who made NK the Heir Apparent?

[Ikania]

So, who made NK the Heir Apparent?

^ What were you thinking? Appointing the Goebbels of the Empire and propagandist-in-chief of the gameplay world as your successor?

If you didn't see this coming by a mile, then obviously you've been doing something wrong.

side note that comparing NK to Goebbels emphasizes how great at propaganda he is, not that he's a Nazi, pls no ban <3

[Cormactopia II]

So, who made NK the Heir Apparent?

I chose the wrong Heir Apparent. It happens.

Though I will add that he was unanimously confirmed by the legislature, so as with nearly everything I'm scapegoated for being solely responsible for in Osiris, the entire community bears some responsibility.

[Roavin]

I'll grant you that, but ... I mean ... you did appoint him. And regarding all the things you're saying now about his history with the Empire and such, didn't you consider those when you made the appointment?

[Cormactopia II]

I'll grant you that, but ... I mean ... you did appoint him. And regarding all the things you're saying now about his history with the Empire and such, didn't you consider those when you made the appointment?

Of course. I believed he had changed. I no longer believe that. These things happen!

[Syberis]

Cormac, I'm uncertain how to tell you this, but The Invaders never respected Osiris. They respected how you constantly jumped to stand up for Knot and served as his largest cheerleader as they repeatedly lied to us and disrespected us. Or should I bring up the whole drama with USSD and TI, which we had to get involved in via FA due to the absolute insanity of statements a leader within TIN in regards to a good friend of yours? Do you not remember how TI then circumvented that by bringing the same person on as an officer? As far as I'm aware, he's even still there.

We gave that a chance, as you're well aware, with the understanding that Knot would police his own men. Instead, the same thing happens again, on an even more unacceptable scale, where leadership of TI does absolutely unconscionable things OOC against people, in this case, an actual treaty ally? Yuno might forgive for that, because that's what she does. To Osiris, however, it's yet another gross overstep of the bounds of propriety and decency within Nationstates by The Invaders, and we're supposed to believe that it's not some institutional failing on the part of TI and Knot? He doesn't care about the way his leaders present themselves? Either he's incompetent or malevolent. In either case, a continued relationship with TI is near impossible to justify.

That "personal disagreement" is well documented to be more than that, and every un-related person that has seen it has seen it for what it is.

[Canton Empire]

Cormac, I'm uncertain how to tell you this, but The Invaders never respected Osiris. They respected how you constantly jumped to stand up for Knot and served as his largest cheerleader as they repeatedly lied to us and disrespected us. Or should I bring up the whole drama with USSD and TI, which we had to get involved in via FA due to the absolute insanity of statements a leader within TIN in regards to a good friend of yours? Do you not remember how TI then circumvented that by bringing the same person on as an officer? As far as I'm aware, he's even still there.

We gave that a chance, as you're well aware, with the understanding that Knot would police his own men. Instead, the same thing happens again, on an even more unacceptable scale, where leadership of TI does absolutely unconscionable things OOC against people, in this case, an actual treaty ally? Yuno might forgive for that, because that's what she does. To Osiris, however, it's yet another gross overstep of the bounds of propriety and decency within Nationstates by The Invaders, and we're supposed to believe that it's not some institutional failing on the part of TI and Knot? He doesn't care about the way his leaders present themselves? Either he's incompetent or malevolent. In either case, a continued relationship with TI is near impossible to justify.

That "personal disagreement" is well documented to be more than that, and every un-related person that has seen it has seen it for what it is.

RIP Cormac, had a good run, then slayed by brutal honesty :/

[Cormactopia II]

Cormac, I'm uncertain how to tell you this, but The Invaders never respected Osiris. They respected how you constantly jumped to stand up for Knot and served as his largest cheerleader as they repeatedly lied to us and disrespected us. Or should I bring up the whole drama with USSD and TI, which we had to get involved in via FA due to the absolute insanity of statements a leader within TIN in regards to a good friend of yours? Do you not remember how TI then circumvented that by bringing the same person on as an officer? As far as I'm aware, he's even still there.

As with most issues related to The Invaders, that was spun out of proportion to insist that something must be done about The Invaders, and by something it was meant that I should authorize termination of relations with them. If anything, it was inappropriate for Osiris to ask The Invaders to expel USSD from The Invader Network in the first place; it was a serious encroachment on their sovereignty. When Vetelo turned up in Firehelm, there was no appetite in Osiris for making similar demands upon Firehelm, and other regions that like to bring up every perceived flaw in The Invaders, like The Black Hawks, also turned a blind eye to Vetelo's participation in Firehelm.

We gave that a chance, as you're well aware, with the understanding that Knot would police his own men. Instead, the same thing happens again, on an even more unacceptable scale, where leadership of TI does absolutely unconscionable things OOC against people, in this case, an actual treaty ally? Yuno might forgive for that, because that's what she does. To Osiris, however, it's yet another gross overstep of the bounds of propriety and decency within Nationstates by The Invaders, and we're supposed to believe that it's not some institutional failing on the part of TI and Knot? He doesn't care about the way his leaders present themselves? Either he's incompetent or malevolent. In either case, a continued relationship with TI is near impossible to justify.

That "personal disagreement" is well documented to be more than that, and every un-related person that has seen it has seen it for what it is.

You're describing some grave incident that doesn't match Yuno's own personal account of the incident, and she was there. You're also ignoring her request not to be used as an argument for terminating relations with The Invaders.

The fact of the matter is that Osiris took something that happened in another region between members of that region and reacted disproportionately, claiming to be defending the sovereignty of the West Pacific when TWP didn't even ask that of Osiris, and claiming to be defending Yuno's honor when she outright asked that you not do this. You used this as an excuse, a rationalization, to do what you, personally, had pushed me to do for months -- terminate relations with The Invaders. Any excuse would do. You just needed something fresh, lest someone ask why you were terminating relations for something that happened months ago.

[Syberis]

Cormac, I'm uncertain how to tell you this, but The Invaders never respected Osiris. They respected how you constantly jumped to stand up for Knot and served as his largest cheerleader as they repeatedly lied to us and disrespected us. Or should I bring up the whole drama with USSD and TI, which we had to get involved in via FA due to the absolute insanity of statements a leader within TIN in regards to a good friend of yours? Do you not remember how TI then circumvented that by bringing the same person on as an officer? As far as I'm aware, he's even still there.

As with most issues related to The Invaders, that was spun out of proportion to insist that something must be done about The Invaders, and by something it was meant that I should authorize termination of relations with them. If anything, it was inappropriate for Osiris to ask The Invaders to expel USSD from The Invader Network in the first place; it was a serious encroachment on their sovereignty. When Vetelo turned up in Firehelm, there was no appetite in Osiris for making similar demands upon Firehelm, and other regions that like to bring up every perceived flaw in The Invaders, like The Black Hawks, also turned a blind eye to Vetelo's participation in Firehelm.

We gave that a chance, as you're well aware, with the understanding that Knot would police his own men. Instead, the same thing happens again, on an even more unacceptable scale, where leadership of TI does absolutely unconscionable things OOC against people, in this case, an actual treaty ally? Yuno might forgive for that, because that's what she does. To Osiris, however, it's yet another gross overstep of the bounds of propriety and decency within Nationstates by The Invaders, and we're supposed to believe that it's not some institutional failing on the part of TI and Knot? He doesn't care about the way his leaders present themselves? Either he's incompetent or malevolent. In either case, a continued relationship with TI is near impossible to justify.

That "personal disagreement" is well documented to be more than that, and every un-related person that has seen it has seen it for what it is.

You're describing some grave incident that doesn't match Yuno's own personal account of the incident, and she was there. You're also ignoring her request not to be used as an argument for terminating relations with The Invaders.

The fact of the matter is that Osiris took something that happened in another region between members of that region and reacted disproportionately, claiming to be defending the sovereignty of the West Pacific when TWP didn't even ask that of Osiris, and claiming to be defending Yuno's honor when she outright asked that you not do this. You used this as an excuse, a rationalization, to do what you, personally, had pushed me to do for months -- terminate relations with The Invaders. Any excuse would do. You just needed something fresh, lest someone ask why you were terminating relations for something that happened months ago.

I do find it rather amusing, Cormac, that I'm simultaneously powerful enough to manipulate you and NK to the point where I'm furthering my own goals; and an utterly powerless pawn at the same time, and Neenee and Biyah are secretly calling the shots. Please do settle on one, it's rather odd having people message me asking if I'm behind this whole thing, and also asking me what it's like not having any say whatsoever in the region I'm Heir Apparent of.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

whatever The Black Hawks are

I believe the answer is "The organization currently in the lead for "Best Invader Organization" by popular and public vote, which is currently deployed in support of the Sekhmet Legion."

[Cormactopia II]

I do find it rather amusing, Cormac, that I'm simultaneously powerful enough to manipulate you and NK to the point where I'm furthering my own goals; and an utterly powerless pawn at the same time, and Neenee and Biyah are secretly calling the shots. Please do settle on one, it's rather odd having people message me asking if I'm behind this whole thing, and also asking me what it's like not having any say whatsoever in the region I'm Heir Apparent of.

To clarify, you weren't the only one in Osiris constantly pressuring me to terminate relations with The Invaders. I'm also not accusing you of furthering any self-serving goals; I'm sure you think terminating relations with The Invaders was best for Osiris. You're just wrong.

In regard to whether you are a pawn of the Empire, everyone in Osiris, myself included, has been a pawn of the Empire for the past several months, so you're not exceptional in that regard and shouldn't feel too bad about it. Happens to the best of us.

whatever The Black Hawks are

I believe the answer is "The organization currently in the lead for "Best Invader Organization" by popular and public vote, which is currently deployed in support of the Sekhmet Legion."

You're in the lead because you've ingratiated yourself with defenders and moderates. They adore you. This isn't news, or anything for a raider to brag about.

I wasn't aware the Legion was raiding anything. It would be nice if occasionally that got announced instead of the latest termination of relations. Ah well.

[Canton Empire]

I do find it rather amusing, Cormac, that I'm simultaneously powerful enough to manipulate you and NK to the point where I'm furthering my own goals; and an utterly powerless pawn at the same time, and Neenee and Biyah are secretly calling the shots. Please do settle on one, it's rather odd having people message me asking if I'm behind this whole thing, and also asking me what it's like not having any say whatsoever in the region I'm Heir Apparent of.

To clarify, you weren't the only one in Osiris constantly pressuring me to terminate relations with The Invaders. I'm also not accusing you of furthering any self-serving goals; I'm sure you think terminating relations with The Invaders was best for Osiris. You're just wrong.

In regard to whether you are a pawn of the Empire, everyone in Osiris, myself included, has been a pawn of the Empire for the past several months, so you're not exceptional in that regard and shouldn't feel too bad about it. Happens to the best of us.

I believe the answer is "The organization currently in the lead for "Best Invader Organization" by popular and public vote, which is currently deployed in support of the Sekhmet Legion."

You're in the lead because you've ingratiated yourself with defenders and moderates. They adore you. This isn't news, or anything for a raider to brag about.

I wasn't aware the Legion was raiding anything. It would be nice if occasionally that got announced instead of the latest termination of relations. Ah well.

Cormac, we all know your gonna try to retake the Osiris delegacy.... you can't even commit to retirement, so I bet that this is a build up to a coup.

[Cormactopia II]

Cormac, we all know your gonna try to retake the Osiris delegacy.... you can't even commit to retirement, so I bet that this is a build up to a coup.

I'm entirely uninterested in serving as Delegate of Osiris again. They're on their own.

[Syberis]

I do find it rather amusing, Cormac, that I'm simultaneously powerful enough to manipulate you and NK to the point where I'm furthering my own goals; and an utterly powerless pawn at the same time, and Neenee and Biyah are secretly calling the shots. Please do settle on one, it's rather odd having people message me asking if I'm behind this whole thing, and also asking me what it's like not having any say whatsoever in the region I'm Heir Apparent of.

To clarify, you weren't the only one in Osiris constantly pressuring me to terminate relations with The Invaders. I'm also not accusing you of furthering any self-serving goals; I'm sure you think terminating relations with The Invaders was best for Osiris. You're just wrong.

In regard to whether you are a pawn of the Empire, everyone in Osiris, myself included, has been a pawn of the Empire for the past several months, so you're not exceptional in that regard and shouldn't feel too bad about it. Happens to the best of us.

I believe the answer is "The organization currently in the lead for "Best Invader Organization" by popular and public vote, which is currently deployed in support of the Sekhmet Legion."

You're in the lead because you've ingratiated yourself with defenders and moderates. They adore you. This isn't news, or anything for a raider to brag about.

I wasn't aware the Legion was raiding anything. It would be nice if occasionally that got announced instead of the latest termination of relations. Ah well.

"Everyone is a pawn in a massive conspiracy theory" is more than a little ridiculous, don't you think? If you were merely their pawn, why, then, does the direction of the region change so much after you abdicated?

You're beginning to sound like Cora, Cormac, in regards to your views of TBH. I half expect you to start spouting off about raider purity next post. Of course you weren't aware the Legion was raiding anything, or that we got TBH support. Anyone who reads up would understand why you were kept out of the loop there.

[Canton Empire]

Cormac, we all know your gonna try to retake the Osiris delegacy.... you can't even commit to retirement, so I bet that this is a build up to a coup.

I'm entirely uninterested in serving as Delegate of Osiris again. They're on their own.

This is coming after you said you were gonna retire. NS sucks you in. The delagacy will call your name.

[Cormactopia II]

"Everyone is a pawn in a massive conspiracy theory" is more than a little ridiculous, don't you think? If you were merely their pawn, why, then, does the direction of the region change so much after you abdicated?

That's a really good question. I have my theories. As people who were on the cabinet at the time can attest, Neo Kervoskia was one of the most vocal voices against re-establishing relations with TNP, TSP, Lazarus (especially Lazarus), and Europeia. He continually advised against it. At one point we were very close to a deal to re-establish relations with Lazarus that we were negotiating with Amerion, and I scuttled it at the last minute, against the objection of Chief Vizier Ridersyl, because NK advised that pursuit of relations with Lazarus would be counterproductive and perhaps even detrimental. The termination of relations with TSP that NK now refers to as "the mistakes of our past"? He helped write the statement. He was fully in favor of termination. It was, in part, his advice, along with Ridersyl's, that compelled me to authorize termination of relations with TSP against my better judgment.

I'll leave it up to you and others to form your own theories in regard to why NK would be so disingenuous now in concealing his vital role in "the mistakes of our past." His excuse is that he was telling me what I wanted to hear. The problem with that is it isn't what I wanted to hear, and often I was leaning one way when he would advise me to change course in the other direction -- the direction he is now repudiating, and not so subtly suggesting was entirely my decision. It certainly makes me look terrible and makes him look good. Maybe that's all there is to it. Maybe not.

You're beginning to sound like Cora, Cormac, in regards to your views of TBH. I half expect you to start spouting off about raider purity next post. Of course you weren't aware the Legion was raiding anything, or that we got TBH support. Anyone who reads up would understand why you were kept out of the loop there.

You don't have to be an advocate of "raider purity" to believe that raiders shouldn't seek or boast about the approval of defenders and moderates who straddle the fence between raiding and defending. That was pretty standard raider opinion just a few years ago, before Souls took Cat Burglarism mainstream to the detriment of raiding.

Are you actually implying that I would have sought to disrupt a Legion raid because TBH was involved? Can you cite any example of me ever doing anything that unprofessional in regard to the Legion?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I'd be interested in knowing how many Scribes of War, Pharaohs, and/or Crown Princes came to Osiris from TI, how many Legion operations TI has jumped with or piled on, and how many operations TI has ended early to ensure a Legion one did not fall to defenders.

'Cause I know on the TBH end, that's something like at least three, over a half dozen, and one notably, in the past two years or so. Curious how one's been best for the region, and the other's been absolute poison, y'know?

Only underhand motive I've had recently regarding Osi is helping their op be over sooner so I can have Rax's WA back

[Cormactopia II]

I'd be interested in knowing how many Scribes of War, Pharaohs, and/or Crown Princes came to Osiris from TI, how many Legion operations TI has jumped with or piled on, and how many operations TI has ended early to ensure a Legion one did not fall to defenders.

'Cause I know on the TBH end, that's something like at least three, over a half dozen, and one notably, in the past two years or so.

Well, The Invaders haven't even been active again for two years yet, so TBH has an advantage there. Knot was our Deputy Scribe of War for a while, but that was before The Invaders were rebooted. Yuno is Field Commander right now. I don't think any of The Invaders have been Pharaoh or Heir Apparent but, I mean, only three people have served as Pharaoh or Heir Apparent since The Invaders were rebooted, one of whom isn't a raider at all, one of whom is a Black Hawk, and one of whom is me. I honestly fail to see the relevance, in any case. I would hope whichever individual Black Hawks came to Osiris came there because they liked Osiris, and not for any reason related to TBH.

I couldn't tell you how many Legion operations The Invaders have participated in. I often wasn't even aware of Legion operations because they're never announced and sometimes weren't even communicated to me, and the Legion often doesn't ask for foreign support anyway. I'm certain the Legion and The Invaders have worked together, but I couldn't tell you how many times.

Curious how one's been best for the region, and the other's been absolute poison, y'know?

Here's the difference: When the going gets tough, The Black Hawks get going. You refused to get involved in the April conflict, which was fair enough, you were hardly the only ones. But then you also refused to support an emergency Delegate transition when Tim was without internet and I needed to be installed as Delegate, after the conflict had clearly ended. You stayed on the fence because you were worried what Europeia might think. That's something that wouldn't happen with The Invaders. They would support a strongly pro-raider government without worrying about how that would be seen in Europeia. They are, in short, a far more reliable ally, because they don't prioritize Europeia and other moderate regions over their fellow raiders.

And that's not even to mention TBH spending years on a sleeper operation from 2011-13 to overthrow the government of Osiris.

[Der Angreifer]

If it's a thank you you want, it's a thank you you'll get. Thank you, Cormac, for placing Osiris on this path, along which you've damaged ties and reputations. I'm sorry that NK wants adjust the trajectory of the region towards a better future.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Nor do a lot of the people in this thread, apparently. If you think Cormac's seven month Pharaoh term was full of him just going off and destroying ties and shit because he felt like it, you're drinking Kool-Aid. It's amazing how many people are suddenly experts on Osiris when it comes time for a good Cormac bashing.

No matter which side you're on, there's no denying this statement.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I've really got to remember to tell Europeia that I'm under their control and do everything to please them. Maybe then TBH might participate in CAIN, or something like that. Pretty big oversight, us not being forced to bend over backwards and eschew our policies of joining formally binding treaties and not working with defenders in order to join such an effort led by them. Ample ammunition as well, just threaten to call us Nazis or something and we'd be near *forced* to join in, eh? Probably should also work militarily with them more, it's been a long while since they joined us on an op, much less since we last supported one of theirs. Who is it that has me in their palm anyways? Mouse, who I actually talked to, is no longer delegate. I don't really know their new military leader that well. WritingLegend then? I'll tell the president to get right on subverting raiding some more then, since he seems to have forgotten to do so in his new office.

[Ikania]

Here's the difference: When the going gets tough, The Black Hawks get going. You refused to get involved in the April conflict, which was fair enough, you were hardly the only ones. But then you also refused to support an emergency Delegate transition when Tim was without internet and I needed to be installed as Delegate, after the conflict had clearly ended. You stayed on the fence because you were worried what Europeia might think.

I'm sure literally the only reason the Hawks would ever possibly decline support to your coup is simply what Europeia would think, and absolutely not anything else involving the circumstances and justifications of your contemptuous betrayal.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Here's the difference: When the going gets tough, The Black Hawks get going. You refused to get involved in the April conflict, which was fair enough, you were hardly the only ones. But then you also refused to support an emergency Delegate transition when Tim was without internet and I needed to be installed as Delegate, after the conflict had clearly ended. You stayed on the fence because you were worried what Europeia might think.

I'm sure literally the only reason the Hawks would ever possibly decline support to your coup is simply what Europeia would think, and absolutely not anything else involving the circumstances and justifications of your contemptuous betrayal.

It's worth noting that we didn't support either side in that matter - we made clear that we rarely even support delegate transitions and so forth, were otherwise occupied at the time, and saw no pressing reason to "choose a side" in a conflict that had long-standing allies on both sides. We're here to raid, not decide who was the legal delegate of Osiris. You see, if we'd figured we had the authority to do that, we might *actually* have been meddling there And thanks to our policy of not joining in any sort of binding agreement (to the point that, when we applied for a forum embassy with Osiris well prior [back when there was a clause in the app that required one to swear support of the government as defined by X], we modified the given terms and statements a bit to avoid having our hand forced...modifications which were accepted), we didn't have to!

Update: Ah, here we go. http://w11.zetaboards.com/OFO/single/?p ... t=11063617 Yep. Specifically cut out the bit that required us to recognize the sitting delegate as Pharaoh under any circumstance. See, we *really* aren't huge fans of being bound to do anything, generally. Like to reserve the option to do things like sit messes out