[D]Regarding Chat/Location Threads in F7

[Torrocca]

I mean, probably the best solution is mutually beneficial cooperation between the two divisions of the C/CLT threads that also keeps moderator intervention in the current Ram's Head at an absolute minimum, if my other suggested compromise isn't going to be considered.

Bingo (emphasis added, if that is not apparent).

Moderation is not unaware of the differences in play styles in one part of the C/CLT community versus another. This was taken into consideration to begin with, weighed by the workload of each Moderator. Look at it this way: "Do we create two Mod-sanctioned threads, then define who can post where, and end-up responding to players from each side of the community complaining about not wanting something in another thread, on top of rule policing both there and elsewhere, or do we we make one?"

I can imagine it is easy to see why we went with one, especially when weighed by the actual stated purpose of the thread...

The purpose of this single, Mod-sanctioned thread is simple: this will provide players an avenue to demonstrate they are capable of coalescing as a community, are willing to engage in community policing ("Might want to tone that down a bit, Examplestan."), are unwilling to abide or tolerate rule-violating behavior, and are willing to report offending material. Players may file a Getting Help Request if they wish to maintain their confidentiality; please review the guide to making an effective GHR.

This was the stated intention from the beginning: to coalesce the community, to get everyone to view - regardless of their play style differences, variance in commitment, etc. - that it is not any one group's brand or play style that is under scrutiny, but the entirety of the thread type - a thread type that has already been placed on moratorium twice.

This is not an instance where the blame game will work. Moderation determined there are problems endemic to C/CLTs, regardless of the group of players, brand, or individual play style. That means if that community would like to have their threads back, they need to prove - as a community - they are willing to act as one in the defense of their preferred thread type. That means acknowledging, but setting aside differences and working together to find a solution - namely, ensuring rule-violations aren't permitted to go by without being reported and, further, adopting a mindset where, as a community, those who endorse "letting it slide" don't receive purchase in the community.

I don't subscribe to your fancy-schmancy vocabulary, Ky. /s

But, yeah, I probably could have done better by not being a silently whiny bitch myself earlier and not participating in the mosh pit. Will make an effortful... effort, to get things better.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

So... another three months have passed, and without much issue in the moderation-approved C/CLT thread! Now, with that in mind, we haven't necessarily gotten any word about a discussion beginning on the future of C/CLT threads. How soon can we expect an answer on their future, and can we offer any suggestions here in this thread regarding their future?

My two cents. If there's anything I learned from the first moratorium regarding location threads was to let it go and be patient, Torrocca. If there's any chance the moratorium is to be lifted, the mods will let you, the player base, know, when this may happen.

All I can say is that you should continue providing your personal effort to make things better and to make them work out and allow time to take it's course.

[USS Monitor]

Even if you managed such a list -- which we're not going to have you do -- I'm honestly not sure how that would help because we'd still have to tell you when to update the list and there'd still be the issue of enforcing it once someone is on the list. We're not going to go check names against a list every time someone posts a thread in F7.

I can think of better ways to keep records of who is allowed to OP and who isn't, but it would still be a lot of work for an uncertain amount of benefit and not terribly easy to enforce.

A google doc / onenote can be edited and maintained by multiple people at once, so people would easily be able to just add names to the list when needed. And I didn't say for 'every kind of thread in F7', I was speaking of only location threads. Most people don't bother running location threads, they're just there to play in them. It's a sizeably small group of people who're willing to go through all the gray hair and frustration of running a thread themselves. And it's literally as easy as hitting control+F, typing in the name of the OP, and if their name is on the list? Lock the thread and remind them they aren't allowed to run one because they done screwed up. Perhaps I'm missing something but this is excessively simple to the point that anyone with basic knowledge of how computers work can do it.

It's not that we can't do it. It's that we aren't going to because it's a bunch of tedious manual work that isn't guaranteed to have any benefit. There are people on staff that are more than capable of setting up such a list. There are also existing mod tools that we could use instead of google docs. What we are missing is a desire to sit around monitoring F7 to check for C/CL threads and check the OPs.

And I can assure you it's more beneficial than cramming everyone into one thread and expecting them to get along (which is always an atrocious idea). It would practically be the same feckin' thing as it was before all location threads were banned except you could just boot shitty OPs who can't enforce their own rules, something that should've been done in the first place. I get that moderation really doesn't give a planck length's worth of a damn about improving the situation in F7 or doing them any favors but at least pretending to for once would be greatly appreciated. And enforcing it is practically just "oh, there's a new location thread. let me check the doc and compare the name of the OP with the name of the list. are they on it? Yes, then lock the thread. No? Then let 'em be."

It's just an added layer of bureaucracy.

[USS Monitor]

I personally could care less what solution you present. I only state that I agree with Reploid Productions that self-policing is the answer. Why doncha try working on that instead of sulking about the mean old mods.

Cos mean old mods are mean and old. I drowned my own crew and I am turning 155 soon.

[Tinhampton]

A google doc / onenote can be edited and...

It's not that we can't do it. It's that we aren't going to because it's a bunch of tedious manual work that isn't guaranteed to have any benefit. There are people on staff that are more than capable of setting up such a list. There are also existing mod tools that we could use instead of google docs. What we are missing is a desire to sit around monitoring F7 to check for C/CL threads and check the OPs.

And also, check out what Fris wrote on Page 1. Of course, there is also the problem of puppets - for example, if Bigtopia is banned from making new CCLTs, then why would his puppets (Bigtopia1, Bigtopia2, McBigtopiaface and YouCantProveItsMe, say) be allowed to do so?

[USS Monitor]

It's not that we can't do it. It's that we aren't going to because it's a bunch of tedious manual work that isn't guaranteed to have any benefit. There are people on staff that are more than capable of setting up such a list. There are also existing mod tools that we could use instead of google docs. What we are missing is a desire to sit around monitoring F7 to check for C/CL threads and check the OPs.

And also, check out what Fris wrote on Page 1. Of course, there is also the problem of puppets - for example, if Bigtopia is banned from making new CCLTs, then why would his puppets (Bigtopia1, Bigtopia2, McBigtopiaface and YouCantProveItsMe, say) be allowed to do so?

There are tools that could be used to track puppets and keep everything on site, but it's still not worth the trouble.

The idea of having two threads -- one chill thread and one location thread -- is under consideration.

[Chrinthanium]

As someone who used to frequent F7 back in the day, as someone who used to frequent the user-created location threads, and as someone who used to visit the Flaming Wombat.... I'm in favor of continuing the moratorium on these thread in F7. I would be in favor of a complete and permanent ban on these threads with only the Ram's Head being the mod-sanctioned chat thread in F7. We have a single chat thread in General that works quite well as far as I can see. There's no reason to reopen that Pandora's box in F7 again.

I'm on the way out but I want you to make a real quick comparison with the Liquid Wallaby's later threads to the posters in the Ram's Head. You're combining competent RPers with gunk that'd be considered spam in any other RP. The communities aren't compatible, and forcing them into a single thread is a poor idea that's going to result in one community being obliterated. But I get it, not your problem.

I remember a long time ago when people started talking about how the quality of NS RP was on the way down. Seems to be a reoccurring theme around here. However, I vividly remember right around 2008/9ish... while still on Jolt/Jolt-NS changeover.... there were those types of complaints. The new players weren't as good at RPing and it was stinking the place up. We can't stand the quality around here, so we're probably going somewhere else. What passes for RP here is not what it used to be. Honestly, those comments aren't needed. Not everyone is Hemingway, Tolstoy, or even King. But, they're people who are playing the same game you are, who are trying to have as much fun as you are, and are trying to just do the best they can. Perhaps instead of complaining about them, you give them a few tips and pointers? Maybe try helping them out? It went a long way with me back in the day... it might go a long way with others. Or, you know, you could just sulk that the quality isn't up to your standard. Either way. Your choice, bud.

[Barboneia]

I'm on the way out but I want you to make a real quick comparison with the Liquid Wallaby's later threads to the posters in the Ram's Head. You're combining competent RPers with gunk that'd be considered spam in any other RP. The communities aren't compatible, and forcing them into a single thread is a poor idea that's going to result in one community being obliterated. But I get it, not your problem.

I remember a long time ago when people started talking about how the quality of NS RP was on the way down. Seems to be a reoccurring theme around here. However, I vividly remember right around 2008ish... while still on Jolt.. there were those types of complaints. The new players weren't as good at RPing and it was stinking the place up. We can't stand the quality around here, so we're probably going somewhere else. What passes for RP here is not what it used to be. Honestly, those comments aren't needed. Not everyone is Hemingway, Tolstoy, or even King. But, they're people who are playing the same game you are, who are trying to have as much fun as you are, and are trying to just do the best they can. Perhaps instead of complaining about them, you give them a few tips and pointers? Maybe try helping them out? It went a long way with me back in the day... it might go a long way with others. Or, you know, you could just sulk that the quality isn't up to your standard. Either way. Your choice, kid.

They don't listen, though. We invited them into our thread when they had theirs closed, we tried to help them, did basically all we could, but did it help? No. It didn't. They didn't change. And they won't. So what else is there to do except complain?

[Chrinthanium]

I remember a long time ago when people started talking about how the quality of NS RP was on the way down. Seems to be a reoccurring theme around here. However, I vividly remember right around 2008ish... while still on Jolt.. there were those types of complaints. The new players weren't as good at RPing and it was stinking the place up. We can't stand the quality around here, so we're probably going somewhere else. What passes for RP here is not what it used to be. Honestly, those comments aren't needed. Not everyone is Hemingway, Tolstoy, or even King. But, they're people who are playing the same game you are, who are trying to have as much fun as you are, and are trying to just do the best they can. Perhaps instead of complaining about them, you give them a few tips and pointers? Maybe try helping them out? It went a long way with me back in the day... it might go a long way with others. Or, you know, you could just sulk that the quality isn't up to your standard. Either way. Your choice, kid.

They don't listen, though. We invited them into our thread when they had theirs closed, we tried to help them, did basically all we could, but did it help? No. It didn't. They didn't change. And they won't. So what else is there to do except complain?

Perhaps complaining isn't working, though? It hasn't lifted the moratorium or gotten a second mod-sanctioned thread for only those you deem worthy enough to participate, has it? The former is most likely not going to happen while the latter is, at least, getting some discussion time in the mod zone. Even if it does turn into two threads... whose to say who can and can't participate in the new thread? Whose to say you will agree with the names on the list of those who are allowed to participate? Whose to say that "those people" won't ruin that thread for you as well? Nothing will guarantee that because nothing can. This isn't about anything more than a certain group of people thinking another group of people are inferior and therefore they should not intermingle. Well, I hate that argument with all of Hell's fury.

Perhaps I should put it like this: Charles Dickens is considered a great author. Frankly, his books bore me and I really want to dowse myself with gasoline and light a match whenever I start reading his work to help alleviate the boredom. I, Claudius is considered a great book, but I don't like the style in which it is written. Dostoevsky makes me want to throw myself off a cliff. Just because I can't stand their writing doesn't mean they're not great storytellers/authors. I just don't like their style.

[USS Monitor]

Even if it does turn into two threads... whose to say who can and can't participate in the new thread?

That's a problem one of my fellow mods brought up when we were discussing it, and it really is a problem with the two threads idea.

Perhaps I should put it like this: Charles Dickens is considered a great author. Frankly, his books bore me and I really want to dowse myself with gasoline and light a match whenever I start reading his work to help alleviate the boredom. I, Claudius is considered a great book, but I don't like the style in which it is written. Dostoevsky makes me want to throw myself off a cliff. Just because I can't stand their writing doesn't mean they're not great storytellers/authors. I just don't like their style.

I feel the same way about Dickens. You can tell he was getting paid by the word.

[Gurori]

I'm gonna leave my two pence here.

I'm a fan of the idea of mod-sanctioned chat threads, I'm also a fan of NSPolandball.

Now there's a dilemma, we've been told that the NSPolandball art threads AREN'T chat threads but we can't open a NSPolandball chat thread because chat threads are currently mod-sanctioned.

So my question is what does the NSPolandball community do? We aren't welcomed in the Saloon.

[Torrocca]

I'm gonna leave my two pence here.

I'm a fan of the idea of mod-sanctioned chat threads, I'm also a fan of NSPolandball.

Now there's a dilemma, we've been told that the NSPolandball art threads AREN'T chat threads but we can't open a NSPolandball chat thread because chat threads are currently mod-sanctioned.

So my question is what does the NSPolandball community do? We aren't welcomed in the Saloon.

There's nothing suggesting you aren't welcome there.

[Arkadacia]

Even if it does turn into two threads... whose to say who can and can't participate in the new thread?

That's a problem one of my fellow mods brought up when we were discussing it, and it really is a problem with the two threads idea.

Don't make it a hard requirement, just simply state in the OP of this theoretical second thread that it's more focused on IC interaction and character development and that there are slightly higher standards expected. Not saying it'll keep people from posting in it who probably shouldn't be there, but it'll give them idea of what they're getting into and wouldn't require the horrible fate of making a list.

[The Blaatschapen]

I'm gonna leave my two pence here.

I'm a fan of the idea of mod-sanctioned chat threads, I'm also a fan of NSPolandball.

Now there's a dilemma, we've been told that the NSPolandball art threads AREN'T chat threads but we can't open a NSPolandball chat thread because chat threads are currently mod-sanctioned.

So my question is what does the NSPolandball community do? We aren't welcomed in the Saloon.

Different topic I guess. The Saloon is not for NSPolandball type of play I think.

[Gurori]

I'm gonna leave my two pence here.

I'm a fan of the idea of mod-sanctioned chat threads, I'm also a fan of NSPolandball.

Now there's a dilemma, we've been told that the NSPolandball art threads AREN'T chat threads but we can't open a NSPolandball chat thread because chat threads are currently mod-sanctioned.

So my question is what does the NSPolandball community do? We aren't welcomed in the Saloon.

Different topic I guess. The Saloon is not for NSPolandball type of play I think.

Tbh I'm just hoping the ban is lifted or a mod makes a NSPolandball Chat Thread XD

[Kyrusia]

Different topic I guess. The Saloon is not for NSPolandball type of play I think.

Tbh I'm just hoping the ban is lifted or a mod makes a NSPolandball Chat Thread XD

We've had NSBall players in the Ram's Head, just not constantly posting images. You're free to participate as an NSBall-based character if you so desire, but images showing off NSBalls/NSPolanBalls belong in the A&F thread, not just being randomly linked.

[Torrocca]

Tbh I'm just hoping the ban is lifted or a mod makes a NSPolandball Chat Thread XD

We've had NSBall players in the Ram's Head, just not constantly posting images. You're free to participate as an NSBall-based character if you so desire, but images showing off NSBalls/NSPolanBalls belong in the A&F thread, not just being randomly linked.

Question: what if they post an image that's specifically depicting an RP interaction between NSBalls and other NSBalls or other characters? Would it still count as spam even if it's being used to progress the RP?

That's a problem one of my fellow mods brought up when we were discussing it, and it really is a problem with the two threads idea.

Don't make it a hard requirement, just simply state in the OP of this theoretical second thread that it's more focused on IC interaction and character development and that there are slightly higher standards expected. Not saying it'll keep people from posting in it who probably shouldn't be there, but it'll give them idea of what they're getting into and wouldn't require the horrible fate of making a list.

Still, I can't say there's any good historical examples of segregation working at all - even though we're not beaten a people of another race or religion senseless here, a second thread's not really going to work and will ultimately just be more confusing.

Our best course of action is for us "more serious" RPers to work with the other C/CLT folks to make the best we can of the Ram's Head.

[Kollin]

We've had NSBall players in the Ram's Head, just not constantly posting images. You're free to participate as an NSBall-based character if you so desire, but images showing off NSBalls/NSPolanBalls belong in the A&F thread, not just being randomly linked.

Question: what if they post an image that's specifically depicting an RP interaction between NSBalls and other NSBalls or other characters? Would it still count as spam even if it's being used to progress the RP?

Don't make it a hard requirement, just simply state in the OP of this theoretical second thread that it's more focused on IC interaction and character development and that there are slightly higher standards expected. Not saying it'll keep people from posting in it who probably shouldn't be there, but it'll give them idea of what they're getting into and wouldn't require the horrible fate of making a list.

Still, I can't say there's any good historical examples of segregation working at all - even though we're not beaten a people of another race or religion senseless here, a second thread's not really going to work and will ultimately just be more confusing.

Our best course of action is for us "more serious" RPers to work with the other C/CLT folks to make the best we can of the Ram's Head.

Personally as someone who was rather middle of the road on styles (In liking the uber low effort of CLT method, but often towards the end wanting more), i got pushed out by the fact that no one really cared i was there.

I do of course understand the likely reasons for it. For one, of course, the active people of one side of the divide pretty unanimously hate me, last i checked. The other side were 'friends', sure, but not only was i pushing for more serious storylines, a style they didn't want, it didn't help to have my highly unstable history.

The problem is even if you go both ways, the different sides will only take one. If you're not me, this might be fine. If you're on one side of the bridge though, it makes the simple idea of working together very difficult indeed.
Especially when one side has repeatedly degraded the other, take it from my experience, please. Superiority complexes. Never. Work.

[Kyrusia]

Question: what if they post an image that's specifically depicting an RP interaction between NSBalls and other NSBalls or other characters? Would it still count as spam even if it's being used to progress the RP?

Depends on the circumstance and context. There is nothing prohibiting images in RP, insofar as it is not garish and actually contributes something to the venture. Your best (safest) bet is to ensure any given image is related and adding something to the RP in question, and link it in the post (Don't hot-link!) rather than drop a large image in the middle of the text.

Regardless, probably best to divert course back to a topic more directly related to this one before this expands into a full-blown, non-topical tangent.

[Torrocca]

Question: what if they post an image that's specifically depicting an RP interaction between NSBalls and other NSBalls or other characters? Would it still count as spam even if it's being used to progress the RP?

Depends on the circumstance and context. There is nothing prohibiting images in RP, insofar as it is not garish and actually contributes something to the venture. Your best (safest) bet is to ensure any given image is related and adding something to the RP in question, and link it in the post (Don't hot-link!) rather than drop a large image in the middle of the text.

Regardless, probably best to divert course back to a topic more directly related to this one before this expands into a full-blown, non-topical tangent.

Got it.

Question: what if they post an image that's specifically depicting an RP interaction between NSBalls and other NSBalls or other characters? Would it still count as spam even if it's being used to progress the RP?



Still, I can't say there's any good historical examples of segregation working at all - even though we're not beaten a people of another race or religion senseless here, a second thread's not really going to work and will ultimately just be more confusing.

Our best course of action is for us "more serious" RPers to work with the other C/CLT folks to make the best we can of the Ram's Head.

Personally as someone who was rather middle of the road on styles (In liking the uber low effort of CLT method, but often towards the end wanting more), i got pushed out by the fact that no one really cared i was there.

I do of course understand the likely reasons for it. For one, of course, the active people of one side of the divide pretty unanimously hate me, last i checked. The other side were 'friends', sure, but not only was i pushing for more serious storylines, a style they didn't want, it didn't help to have my highly unstable history.

The problem is even if you go both ways, the different sides will only take one. If you're not me, this might be fine. If you're on one side of the bridge though, it makes the simple idea of working together very difficult indeed.
Especially when one side has repeatedly degraded the other, take it from my experience, please. Superiority complexes. Never. Work.

Right, of course, that's why everyone directly involved in this should be making a conscious and full effort to work together to do our best right now in the Ram's Head, rather than bicker and debate who's "superior" and why the "superior" group should be separated from the "inferior" group. Like, not to invoke Godwin's Law or anything, but this sounds like an incredibly simplistic and watered down comparison to the so-called "Aryan race" and "non-Aryans."

[Kollin]

Depends on the circumstance and context. There is nothing prohibiting images in RP, insofar as it is not garish and actually contributes something to the venture. Your best (safest) bet is to ensure any given image is related and adding something to the RP in question, and link it in the post (Don't hot-link!) rather than drop a large image in the middle of the text.

Regardless, probably best to divert course back to a topic more directly related to this one before this expands into a full-blown, non-topical tangent.

Got it.

Personally as someone who was rather middle of the road on styles (In liking the uber low effort of CLT method, but often towards the end wanting more), i got pushed out by the fact that no one really cared i was there.

I do of course understand the likely reasons for it. For one, of course, the active people of one side of the divide pretty unanimously hate me, last i checked. The other side were 'friends', sure, but not only was i pushing for more serious storylines, a style they didn't want, it didn't help to have my highly unstable history.

The problem is even if you go both ways, the different sides will only take one. If you're not me, this might be fine. If you're on one side of the bridge though, it makes the simple idea of working together very difficult indeed.
Especially when one side has repeatedly degraded the other, take it from my experience, please. Superiority complexes. Never. Work.

Right, of course, that's why everyone directly involved in this should be making a conscious and full effort to work together to do our best right now in the Ram's Head, rather than bicker and debate who's "superior" and why the "superior" group should be separated from the "inferior" group. Like, not to invoke Godwin's Law or anything, but this sounds like an incredibly simplistic and watered down comparison to the so-called "Aryan race" and "non-Aryans."

GODWINS LAW HAS BEEN INVOKED

And to be fair, i don't like most of the people on the other side either, since most of them would consider me on the CLT side. Not to the point where i'd never write with them. To do that i just need to be able to have a civil conversation with them. As i'm sure TNEL will readily admit, he hates me, i've known for this some time. Though, despite this, we've had a relatively civil discussion before. For being two people who supposedly hate each other, i'd say it was whether well done.

We do all remember school right, i know my teachers ALWAYS told us, that we WILL have to work with people we don't like. We may even hate them. Despite it, we're to be adults and handle it like so. Not everyone involved is of adult age or maturity either, i look good now but i'm not stable enough for one to expect this all the time.

I'm not so sure i'd ever get involved with them again, really. At one time i'll admit, it made Nationstates like a drug. It feels nice to be off it, but many are still going through withdrawal. Honestly, it's best as mod run right now. It keeps people's heads down, and its a damn greater assurance of fair decisions. The mods are free from player-to-player bias (mostly). TNEL was indeed good at keeping his thread in line (if too a point of keeping any adventurers hesitant at best), and i think if TDC had more readily closed the hand on his friends a bit like he needed to, he'd have done just as well by the rules. Too little, too late.

I'm sure one day the mods will drop the sanction, until then, the best solution for everyone is drop the superiority bullshit. You're making yourself look like a...
*sigh* well, you know. You KNOW what goes there, it's not my place to say it, nor do i need to. Those who are doing it are well aware what everyone else, CLTer and otherwise, think of that behavior. As they should, it's as toxic as the borderline ERP you're acting like this over. Drop it, and try to work together. If everyone actually put in effort and tried, in a few months you might not NEED or WANT a seperate thread at all.

Shocking i know, if you put effort in to work with people and respect them, you MIGHT just end up not hating them. But try it.

[Kyrusia]

Following a lengthy discussion, the Moderation Team has determined we have not seen a satisfactory degree of change to re-instill our trust in this community, particularly with regards to:

• A willingness to self-police and otherwise not enable or encourage rule violations and those who violate them;
• A willingness to actively report potential rule violations to Moderation when self-policing fails.

Further, we have seen behavior which leads us to believe things would soon return to the problematic state they were in were we to remove C/CL thread restrictions. We have seen indications that some players wish to simply "wait out" the moratorium, rather than address problems in this community; likewise, we have seen a "pushing of the boundaries" that has required Moderator intervention on several occasions, illustrating that the potential permanent prohibition of C/CLTs has not been taken as seriously as it should be.

In light of this, the Moderation Team has chosen to postpone a decision on the C/CLT restrictions until September of 2017. At which point we will once again review the community's conduct, which will be what determines whether or not the moratorium will be lifted then.

Since this discussion thread was opened, we saw some degree of progress insofar as a willingness by some to confront these problems and discuss ways in which to resolve them. More of this is needed. If this does not occur, these problems are unlikely to be addressed, meaning the moratorium is likely to be permanent. Take this to heart going forward.

— NationStates Moderation Team