Universal Basic Income

[Daburuetchi]

Fortunately the idea does seem to be gaining traction. It was recently reported that in Canada, Ontario will do a test run of basic income in some areas, and some of the local politicians on the west coast are discussing it too.

Oh god capitalism is still mutating.

[The Romulan Republic]

Fortunately the idea does seem to be gaining traction. It was recently reported that in Canada, Ontario will do a test run of basic income in some areas, and some of the local politicians on the west coast are discussing it too.

Now all we have to do is see if the corporate sector approves or disapproves.

Hey, its more money for people to buy their shit with, and it means they can further automate and outsource with less backlash from the people losing their jobs.

Which kind of casts UBI in a negative light, maybe, but I see it as a win-win. Because that shit is happening anyway, and at least this way it doesn't screw people over quite as badly.

[Setgavarius]

Now all we have to do is see if the corporate sector approves or disapproves.

Hey, its more money for people to buy their shit with, and it means they can further automate and outsource with less backlash from the people losing their jobs.

Which kind of casts UBI in a negative light, maybe, but I see it as a win-win. Because that shit is happening anyway, and at least this way it doesn't screw people over quite as badly.

Fair enough. I see it as a benefit, though mainly my concern is heading off some disastrous war or the victory of luddites.

[Pandeeria]

Fortunately the idea does seem to be gaining traction. It was recently reported that in Canada, Ontario will do a test run of basic income in some areas, and some of the local politicians on the west coast are discussing it too.

Oh god capitalism is still mutating.

Don't worry. If Capitalism has to implement a UBI to stay afloat (which it will have to when automation really starts to hit hard in the next ~30 years), then it's final and utter collapse is but already assured.

[Genivaria]

Fortunately the idea does seem to be gaining traction. It was recently reported that in Canada, Ontario will do a test run of basic income in some areas, and some of the local politicians on the west coast are discussing it too.

Oh god capitalism is still mutating.

I'd prefer to think of it as 'evolving'.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh god capitalism is still mutating.

I'd prefer to think of it as 'evolving'.

And the thing about evolution is that if you evolve far enough, you become a different species altogether.

[Venerable Bede]

Oh god capitalism is still mutating.

Don't worry. If Capitalism has to implement a UBI to stay afloat (which it will have to when automation really starts to hit hard in the next ~30 years), then it's final and utter collapse is but already assured.

UBI is good for capitalism, it's not just a measure to "stay afloat". A lot of people would be spending the money on businesses, driving consumerism and capitalism.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

Oh god capitalism is still mutating.

Don't worry. If Capitalism has to implement a UBI to stay afloat (which it will have to when automation really starts to hit hard in the next ~30 years), then it's final and utter collapse is but already assured.

Corporatism and antilaborism someday, someday...

[Pandeeria]

Don't worry. If Capitalism has to implement a UBI to stay afloat (which it will have to when automation really starts to hit hard in the next ~30 years), then it's final and utter collapse is but already assured.

UBI is good for capitalism, it's not just a measure to "stay afloat". A lot of people would be spending the money on businesses, driving consumerism and capitalism.

I doubt the UBI will be sustainable in the long run. Hell, already countries are having bigger and bigger issues funding and keep their universal healthcare and subsidized college afloat. In the States we're already facing a huge problem with pensions, Medicare, and Retirement plans (as the baby boomers get older). And as the population continues to grow, and as there are less and less people working due to a combination of automation and sluggish economic growth, these issues will only get worse. Take these things, put them on fucking steroids (in the form of UBI), and it surely will not be sustainable in the long run.

UBI is good for capitalism in the sense that it will prolong it's decline and keep the system running longer, just as the social democratic reforms of the 50's and 60's managed to quell class unrest for the time being. However, these will only stave off capitalism's death.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

UBI is good for capitalism, it's not just a measure to "stay afloat". A lot of people would be spending the money on businesses, driving consumerism and capitalism.

I doubt the UBI will be sustainable in the long run. Hell, already countries are having bigger and bigger issues funding and keep their universal healthcare and subsidized college afloat. In the State we're already facing a huge problem with pensions, Medicare, and Retirement plans. And as the population continues to grow, and as there are less and less people working due to a combination of automation and sluggish economic growth, these issues will only get worse. Take these things, put them on fucking steroids (in the form of UBI), and it surely will not be sustainable in the long run.

UBI is good for capitalism in the sense that it will prolong it's decline and keep the system running longer, just as the social democratic reforms of the 50's and 60's managed to quell class unrest for the time being. However, these will only stave off capitalism's death.

Entropy dictates its' destruction is inevitable, in one form or another.

[Great Nepal]

Universal basic income is simply necessary as we start to see more and more automation (and automation will happen regardless of if you move first and gain the productivity advantage or if you appeal to luddites and are left behind by the rapidly advancing word); the problem already exists with issues around high volume manufacturing jobs relocating away from developed countries to be left largely with a vacuum as those displaced aren't provided with appropriate funds to retrain and relocate. This situation will become far more serious as we move from world where there's gap is of skill to world where gap is of you not being an algorithm - to a point where it'll not only cause untold hardship for people but will actively damage economies because of lack of disposable cash. We need to move away from idea that having a stable job is the norm to norm being people not having fixed jobs at all. Only real solution is for the state to capitalist on the improved productivity and invest it in individuals in form of some kind of basic income.

[Venerable Bede]

UBI is good for capitalism, it's not just a measure to "stay afloat". A lot of people would be spending the money on businesses, driving consumerism and capitalism.

I doubt the UBI will be sustainable in the long run. Hell, already countries are having bigger and bigger issues funding and keep their universal healthcare and subsidized college afloat. In the States we're already facing a huge problem with pensions, Medicare, and Retirement plans (as the baby boomers get older). And as the population continues to grow, and as there are less and less people working due to a combination of automation and sluggish economic growth, these issues will only get worse. Take these things, put them on fucking steroids (in the form of UBI), and it surely will not be sustainable in the long run.

UBI is good for capitalism in the sense that it will prolong it's decline and keep the system running longer, just as the social democratic reforms of the 50's and 60's managed to quell class unrest for the time being. However, these will only stave off capitalism's death.

UBI would be extremely sustainable if the U.S. tax rates weren't so low.

[Venerable Bede]

Universal basic income is simply necessary as we start to see more and more automation (and automation will happen regardless of if you move first and gain the productivity advantage or if you appeal to luddites and are left behind by the rapidly advancing word); the problem already exists with issues around high volume manufacturing jobs relocating away from developed countries to be left largely with a vacuum as those displaced aren't provided with appropriate funds to retrain and relocate. This situation will become far more serious as we move from world where there's gap is of skill to world where gap is of you not being an algorithm - to a point where it'll not only cause untold hardship for people but will actively damage economies because of lack of disposable cash. We need to move away from idea that having a stable job is the norm to norm being people not having fixed jobs at all. Only real solution is for the state to capitalist on the improved productivity and invest it in individuals in form of some kind of basic income.

We could just start having mandatory vocational certification taught in high school, in case college doesn't pan-out.

[The Romulan Republic]

UBI would be extremely sustainable if the U.S. tax rates weren't so low.

And if it replaced/merged some of the existing social programs, like Social Security (which would be redundant if everyone was ensured a liveable income).

It could not, however, replace the need for a public health care system.

[Pandeeria]

I doubt the UBI will be sustainable in the long run. Hell, already countries are having bigger and bigger issues funding and keep their universal healthcare and subsidized college afloat. In the States we're already facing a huge problem with pensions, Medicare, and Retirement plans (as the baby boomers get older). And as the population continues to grow, and as there are less and less people working due to a combination of automation and sluggish economic growth, these issues will only get worse. Take these things, put them on fucking steroids (in the form of UBI), and it surely will not be sustainable in the long run.

UBI is good for capitalism in the sense that it will prolong it's decline and keep the system running longer, just as the social democratic reforms of the 50's and 60's managed to quell class unrest for the time being. However, these will only stave off capitalism's death.

UBI would be extremely sustainable if the U.S. tax rates weren't so low.

No, it wouldn't. Especially when more and more people have to rely purely on it, and as more people are born, and as more people get older and become more expensive to take care of, the whole thing is not sustainable. This isn't taking into account the actual nature of capitalism, what with it's hunger for ever increasing, ever growing profits. The whole system is just unsustainable, it's going to collapse. The issue is a matter of when (which if it makes you feel any better, it's sure not going to happen our or our children's life times), and what will replace it.

I doubt the UBI will be sustainable in the long run. Hell, already countries are having bigger and bigger issues funding and keep their universal healthcare and subsidized college afloat. In the State we're already facing a huge problem with pensions, Medicare, and Retirement plans. And as the population continues to grow, and as there are less and less people working due to a combination of automation and sluggish economic growth, these issues will only get worse. Take these things, put them on fucking steroids (in the form of UBI), and it surely will not be sustainable in the long run.

UBI is good for capitalism in the sense that it will prolong it's decline and keep the system running longer, just as the social democratic reforms of the 50's and 60's managed to quell class unrest for the time being. However, these will only stave off capitalism's death.

Entropy dictates its' destruction is inevitable, in one form or another.

Well now you're getting into the universe it's self dying off. From the point of view of entropy, everything is unsustainable.

[The Romulan Republic]

UBI would be extremely sustainable if the U.S. tax rates weren't so low.

No, it wouldn't. Especially when more and more people have to rely purely on it, and as more people are born, and as more people get older and become more expensive to take care of, the whole thing is not sustainable. This isn't taking into account the actual nature of capitalism, what with it's hunger for ever increasing, ever growing profits. The whole system is just unsustainable, it's going to collapse. The issue is a matter of when (which if it makes you feel any better, it's sure not going to happen our or our children's life times), and what will replace it.

Entropy dictates its' destruction is inevitable, in one form or another.

Well now you're getting into the universe it's self dying off. From the point of view of entropy, everything is unsustainable.

Perhaps the one true constant in the universe is change.

[Genivaria]

Oh god capitalism is still mutating.

Don't worry. If Capitalism has to implement a UBI to stay afloat (which it will have to when automation really starts to hit hard in the next ~30 years), then it's final and utter collapse is but already assured.

To be replaced by what?

[The United Colonies of Earth]

UBI would be extremely sustainable if the U.S. tax rates weren't so low.

No, it wouldn't. Especially when more and more people have to rely purely on it, and as more people are born, and as more people get older and become more expensive to take care of, the whole thing is not sustainable. This isn't taking into account actual natural capitalism, what with it's hunger for ever increasing, ever growing profits. The whole system is just unsustainable, it's going to collapse. The issue is a matter of when (which if it makes you feel any better, it's sure not going to happen our or our children's life times), and what will replace it.

Entropy dictates its' destruction is inevitable, in one form or another.

Well now you're getting into the universe it's self dying off. From the point of view of entropy, everything is unsustainable.

Yes, there's that.
And as Romulan says, the only constant in this universe itself is that it is never constant.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

Don't worry. If Capitalism has to implement a UBI to stay afloat (which it will have to when automation really starts to hit hard in the next ~30 years), then it's final and utter collapse is but already assured.

To be replaced by what?

Sozialismus of course.

[Genivaria]

I'd prefer to think of it as 'evolving'.

And the thing about evolution is that if you evolve far enough, you become a different species altogether.

As long as it's an improvement I don't much care what we call it.

[Pandeeria]

Don't worry. If Capitalism has to implement a UBI to stay afloat (which it will have to when automation really starts to hit hard in the next ~30 years), then it's final and utter collapse is but already assured.

To be replaced by what?

I'm not sure. Perhaps Socialism, perhaps we just all die?

[Venerable Bede]

No, it wouldn't. Especially when more and more people have to rely purely on it, and as more people are born, and as more people get older and become more expensive to take care of, the whole thing is not sustainable. This isn't taking into account the actual nature of capitalism, what with it's hunger for ever increasing, ever growing profits. The whole system is just unsustainable, it's going to collapse. The issue is a matter of when (which if it makes you feel any better, it's sure not going to happen our or our children's life times), and what will replace it.



Well now you're getting into the universe it's self dying off. From the point of view of entropy, everything is unsustainable.

Perhaps the one true constant in the universe is change.

Heraclitus, please.

[The Romulan Republic]

To be replaced by what?

I'm not sure. Perhaps Socialism, perhaps we just all die?

Depending on how badly the next few decades go, the options in the event of capitalism's collapse (which I do not regard as inevitable) range from "Democratic Socialism" to "Totalitarianism" to "Extinction".

[Great Nepal]

Universal basic income is simply necessary as we start to see more and more automation (and automation will happen regardless of if you move first and gain the productivity advantage or if you appeal to luddites and are left behind by the rapidly advancing word); the problem already exists with issues around high volume manufacturing jobs relocating away from developed countries to be left largely with a vacuum as those displaced aren't provided with appropriate funds to retrain and relocate. This situation will become far more serious as we move from world where there's gap is of skill to world where gap is of you not being an algorithm - to a point where it'll not only cause untold hardship for people but will actively damage economies because of lack of disposable cash. We need to move away from idea that having a stable job is the norm to norm being people not having fixed jobs at all. Only real solution is for the state to capitalist on the improved productivity and invest it in individuals in form of some kind of basic income.

We could just start having mandatory vocational certification taught in high school, in case college doesn't pan-out.

Hmm maybe but really the problem is skills taught in high school will be largely irrelevant by the time they get to actual jobs, the thought process might still be transferable sure but the underlying material itself is worthless. Twenty years after it was taught, yeah that's pointless - you need serious investment in adult retraining if you're going to try and fill the new vacancies by older workers; and governmental subsidy for cost of transporting to new location etc.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

I'm not sure. Perhaps Socialism, perhaps we just all die?

Depending on how badly the next few decades go, the options in the event of capitalism's collapse (which I do not regard as inevitable) range from "Democratic Socialism" to "Totalitarianism" to "Extinction".

We're approaching a very great and gross filter indeed.