by Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:57 pm
by Renewed Imperial Germany » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:58 pm
by The New Sea Territory » Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:28 pm
Vubaria wrote:In the US however, where male circumcision is routinely preformed on infants by the million, there has been a noticeable silence on circumcision. While by no means speakers of the entire feminist movement, online feminists have routinely trivialized the issue and more or less claimed, even if they are personally against it, that circumcision is not an important issue.
Vubaria wrote:The fact is, while many feminists in the US no doubt don't support circumcision, there has been absolutely 0 discussion about it by feminists, prominent or not. Some claim to oppose it is anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic, even.
Yet despite this, most feminist groups are silent. The equivalent of male circumcision, the removal of the clitoral hood, is flat out illegal since 1997. This is because any alteration of a woman's genitalia was seen as a violation of her bodily autonomy, and thus was a barbaric act.
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by Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:38 pm
The New Sea Territory wrote:It's a trivial issue because its not comparable to a woman's right to an abortion, which you compare it to in the OP.
The New Sea Territory wrote:There's no systemic attempts to keep circumcising male infants,
The New Sea Territory wrote: and the fact that they are infants makes the issue significantly less tyrannical.
The New Sea Territory wrote: Unlike abortion, which has nearly been regulated out of existence in some southern states.
The New Sea Territory wrote:Your claim of hypocrisy only makes sense if feminists (itself a generalized term that includes some mutually exclusive ideas and theories) were actually supporting male circumcision en masse,
The New Sea Territory wrote: instead of just laughing at MRAs who think this is actually comparable to issues facing minority groups or women.
The New Sea Territory wrote:You have an actual source for that, or are you just doubling down on meme-esque strawmen?
The New Sea Territory wrote:The two are comparable in name only. They are not equivalents.
by Costa Fierro » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:33 pm
The New Sea Territory wrote:The two are comparable in name only. They are not equivalents.
by Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:37 pm
Costa Fierro wrote:
Anyway, more to the point, it's pretty obvious why feminists don't speak out against circumcision: to control men's sexuality. One of the many things feminism is attempting to do in order to bring about this "equality" we keep hearing so much about.
by Conserative Morality » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:39 pm
by The first Galactic Republic » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:41 pm
Costa Fierro wrote:The New Sea Territory wrote:The two are comparable in name only. They are not equivalents.
You should get one yourself and see what it's like. After all, if it's not as bad as people claim it is then surely more men would have it done voluntarily, right? Or does bodily sovereignty and integrity not apply to a person because they were born with a penis?
The removal of the clitoral hood is designed purely to remove any pleasure a woman has from masturbation or sex. The same thing applies to the foreskin, as it is also important in achieving pleasure from stimulation. Both are designed purely to remove the temptation or the pleasure of sex and masturbation so that people have it less often. It's a method to control both men's and women's sexuality. You can stick your fingers in your ears and scream loudly as long as you want, but the facts remain that they are one in the same. Although your denial speaks loudly at the uselessness of American sexual education.
Anyway, more to the point, it's pretty obvious why feminists don't speak out against circumcision: to control men's sexuality. One of the many things feminism is attempting to do in order to bring about this "equality" we keep hearing so much about.
by Costa Fierro » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:41 pm
by Wallenburg » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:42 pm
by Conserative Morality » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:42 pm
Costa Fierro wrote:No, feminism wants to control men's sexuality because it is part of their over all plan to control men themselves. How we speak, interact and how we develop relationships. Feminism wants to put the control into women's hands, primarily as restitution for the centuries of apparent oppression at the hands of men. It never used to be like this, but recently the castration fantasies and the other sick thoughts that feminists often openly share suddenly became the ideal for feminism, a world where they can crush and belittle men because we "deserve it". Man-hating is the new black.
Think of it as a tit-for-tat battle between the sexes but played out over centuries.
by Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:45 pm
Conserative Morality wrote:Literally never heard a feminist defend circumcision.
Literally never heard anyone seriously defend circumcision past a shrug and muttering something about tradition.
by Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:45 pm
The first Galactic Republic wrote:Costa Fierro wrote:
You should get one yourself and see what it's like. After all, if it's not as bad as people claim it is then surely more men would have it done voluntarily, right? Or does bodily sovereignty and integrity not apply to a person because they were born with a penis?
The removal of the clitoral hood is designed purely to remove any pleasure a woman has from masturbation or sex. The same thing applies to the foreskin, as it is also important in achieving pleasure from stimulation. Both are designed purely to remove the temptation or the pleasure of sex and masturbation so that people have it less often. It's a method to control both men's and women's sexuality. You can stick your fingers in your ears and scream loudly as long as you want, but the facts remain that they are one in the same. Although your denial speaks loudly at the uselessness of American sexual education.
Anyway, more to the point, it's pretty obvious why feminists don't speak out against circumcision: to control men's sexuality. One of the many things feminism is attempting to do in order to bring about this "equality" we keep hearing so much about.
This is bad male anatomy right here. Bad history too.
by Conserative Morality » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:49 pm
Vubaria wrote:Then you are incredibly isolated and coddled; I linked to a feminist's defense of circumcision right in the OP, which I'm sure you didn't read.
by The first Galactic Republic » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:51 pm
by Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:56 pm
Conserative Morality wrote:No, I didn't read it because this is the information age; you can get anyone to say anything, and mean it. Idgaf about examples that get passed around like bad chain emails. I care about statistics and cultural trends, personal experiences, and the experiences of others, in that order.
Conserative Morality wrote:Skimming the two links, the telegraph doesn't seem to be defending circumscision but rather denying that it's a practice comparable to FGM, which is completely true. And as a Brit, it's not exactly common practice over there. Non-Jewish circumcisions is very American.
by Costa Fierro » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:57 pm
Wallenburg wrote:I'd like my foreskin back, but considering that's not an option, I'd at least like to see the abominable practice of circumsizing baby boys banned.
Oh, and Costa, I'm a feminist, so screw that "feminists are out to oppress men!!!" argument.
Conserative Morality wrote:Have you considered a therapist?
by Wallenburg » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:59 pm
Costa Fierro wrote:Men cannot be feminists. It's scary when I agree with radical feminists on something.
by Vubaria » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:00 am
The first Galactic Republic wrote:Vubaria wrote:Explain what purpose you think the foreskin serves.
I think it should be the first poster's responsibility to provide a source for that paragraph. They're making a claim.
It's a piece of skin not an abstract concept. You can't stretch its purpose just to fit your argument. I base my claim that it's bad anatomy on the lack of source, the fact that circumcised men can masturbate just fine, and that circumcision isn't that anatomically comparable, I mean it doesn't serve the same purpose for example, to what women get.
by Conserative Morality » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:03 am
Vubaria wrote:And yet the refutation you used was a personal anecdote, literally the least useful form of evidence.
That is extreme hypocrisy. I specifically mention cultural trends (feminism's inability to do anything about circumcision), there are no statistics on feminists opinions because nobody studies it, and you of course decide that your anecdotes are more useful than others.
The feminist I linked was not some asshole internet dweller. She is a professor at a respected college
and a known feminist. That is not nobody.
"I would like to offer a slightly different explanation: we're very happy! There are no international movements calling for an end to circumcision because the billions of men around the planet who have been circumcised have not experienced any negative effects."
"it is deeply irresponsible to attribute the different treatment of these topics as some sort of underhanded feminist conspiracy. To do so threatens simultaneously to generate unwarranted attacks on religious practice, and undermine the important campaign against FGM. "
Claims any attack on feminism's treatment of circumcision is anti-semitic.
The rate of occurrence in the UK doesn't matter, though; my criticism is squarely focused on American feminism.
by Conserative Morality » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:05 am
Costa Fierro wrote:Men cannot be feminists. It's scary when I agree with radical feminists on something.
Why?
by Minzerland » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:06 am
Vubaria wrote:The right of bodily autonomy is the chief defense of many women's rights concepts: the right to an abortion, the right to contraception, and defense against female genetial mutilation. All of these are noble goals that I agree with, and because of such, largely consider myself a feminist.
In Europe, the criticism I am about to levy is not true; many feminists take heart this argument and, in fact, do pursue the ban of non-medical infant circumcision. That is why in many nations where it is not a common practice, it is either outright illegal or very difficult to perform, and almost always not covered by the universal healthcare these nations often provide.
In the US however, where male circumcision is routinely preformed on infants by the million, there has been a noticeable silence on circumcision. While by no means speakers of the entire feminist movement, online feminists have routinely trivialized the issue and more or less claimed, even if they are personally against it, that circumcision is not an important issue.
The fact is, while many feminists in the US no doubt don't support circumcision, there has been absolutely 0 discussion about it by feminists, prominent or not. Some claim to oppose it is anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic, even.
The fact is, it does objectively hurt sexual pleasure; it eliminates a plethora of nerves and takes away a piece of skin that serves as natural lubricant. But that doesn't even matter, because it is almost 100% of the time, an unnecessary, cosmetic surgery. It is a permanent alteration of a person's genitals, the exact consequences of which we do not fully understand.
Yet despite this, most feminist groups are silent. The equivalent of male circumcision, the removal of the clitoral hood, is flat out illegal since 1997. This is because any alteration of a woman's genitalia was seen as a violation of her bodily autonomy, and thus was a barbaric act.
Yet this same logic does not apply to men; feminist groups either defend the practice or are silent on it. The right to bodily autonomy does not apply to men, in the US, nor does it in the Middle East, South Korea, or the Philippines.
It is for this reason why I, someone who agrees with most tenets of feminism, and who is in any other capacity, liberal, can not take seriously the majority of feminist groups or their leaders. They are intellectually dishonest, at best sacrificing people they claim to fight for, and at worst engaging in the systemic oppression they criticize.
After all, it is generally agreed that the patriarchy hurts men as it does women; and that men do not need a separate movement. Yet there is no movement that helps men escape circumcision, as feminism in the US, as an organized ideology and political group, has completely failed to help them.
by Costa Fierro » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:09 am
Wallenburg wrote:Either you are lying and you know it, or you haven't consulted a dictionary (or the real world) in a while.
The first Galactic Republic wrote:I think it should be the first poster's responsibility to provide a source for that paragraph. They're making a claim.
by Conserative Morality » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:10 am
Costa Fierro wrote:Men cannot be feminists because they are not women and therefore cannot understand women's issues. In the same way women cannot be masculinists because they are women.
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