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American Feminism and Hypocrisy: Male Circumcision

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Vubaria
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American Feminism and Hypocrisy: Male Circumcision

Postby Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:57 pm

The right of bodily autonomy is the chief defense of many women's rights concepts: the right to an abortion, the right to contraception, and defense against female genetial mutilation. All of these are noble goals that I agree with, and because of such, largely consider myself a feminist.

In Europe, the criticism I am about to levy is not true; many feminists take heart this argument and, in fact, do pursue the ban of non-medical infant circumcision. That is why in many nations where it is not a common practice, it is either outright illegal or very difficult to perform, and almost always not covered by the universal healthcare these nations often provide.

In the US however, where male circumcision is routinely preformed on infants by the million, there has been a noticeable silence on circumcision. While by no means speakers of the entire feminist movement, online feminists have routinely trivialized the issue and more or less claimed, even if they are personally against it, that circumcision is not an important issue.

The fact is, while many feminists in the US no doubt don't support circumcision, there has been absolutely 0 discussion about it by feminists, prominent or not. Some claim to oppose it is anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic, even.

The fact is, it does objectively hurt sexual pleasure; it eliminates a plethora of nerves and takes away a piece of skin that serves as natural lubricant. But that doesn't even matter, because it is almost 100% of the time, an unnecessary, cosmetic surgery. It is a permanent alteration of a person's genitals, the exact consequences of which we do not fully understand.

Yet despite this, most feminist groups are silent. The equivalent of male circumcision, the removal of the clitoral hood, is flat out illegal since 1997. This is because any alteration of a woman's genitalia was seen as a violation of her bodily autonomy, and thus was a barbaric act.

Yet this same logic does not apply to men; feminist groups either defend the practice or are silent on it. The right to bodily autonomy does not apply to men, in the US, nor does it in the Middle East, South Korea, or the Philippines.

It is for this reason why I, someone who agrees with most tenets of feminism, and who is in any other capacity, liberal, can not take seriously the majority of feminist groups or their leaders. They are intellectually dishonest, at best sacrificing people they claim to fight for, and at worst engaging in the systemic oppression they criticize.

After all, it is generally agreed that the patriarchy hurts men as it does women; and that men do not need a separate movement. Yet there is no movement that helps men escape circumcision, as feminism in the US, as an organized ideology and political group, has completely failed to help them.

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Postby Renewed Imperial Germany » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:58 pm

I totally misread that as Male Castration.
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Postby Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:01 pm

Renewed Imperial Germany wrote:I totally misread that as Male Castration.

Well, I'm fairly certain everyone is opposed to that.

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Postby The New Sea Territory » Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:28 pm

Vubaria wrote:In the US however, where male circumcision is routinely preformed on infants by the million, there has been a noticeable silence on circumcision. While by no means speakers of the entire feminist movement, online feminists have routinely trivialized the issue and more or less claimed, even if they are personally against it, that circumcision is not an important issue.


It's a trivial issue because its not comparable to a woman's right to an abortion, which you compare it to in the OP. There's no systemic attempts to keep circumcising male infants, and the fact that they are infants makes the issue significantly less tyrannical. Unlike abortion, which has nearly been regulated out of existence in some southern states.

Your claim of hypocrisy only makes sense if feminists (itself a generalized term that includes some mutually exclusive ideas and theories) were actually supporting male circumcision en masse, instead of just laughing at MRAs who think this is actually comparable to issues facing minority groups or women.

Vubaria wrote:The fact is, while many feminists in the US no doubt don't support circumcision, there has been absolutely 0 discussion about it by feminists, prominent or not. Some claim to oppose it is anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic, even.


You have an actual source for that, or are you just doubling down on meme-esque strawmen?

Yet despite this, most feminist groups are silent. The equivalent of male circumcision, the removal of the clitoral hood, is flat out illegal since 1997. This is because any alteration of a woman's genitalia was seen as a violation of her bodily autonomy, and thus was a barbaric act.


The two are comparable in name only. They are not equivalents.
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Postby Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:38 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:It's a trivial issue because its not comparable to a woman's right to an abortion, which you compare it to in the OP.

How is it not? It permanently affects sexual pleasure for the rest of their life; and it is done in violation of bodily autonomy. I wouldn't compare it to FGM, due to the severity in comparison, but does the right to bodily autonomy lessen as the severity lessens?
The New Sea Territory wrote:There's no systemic attempts to keep circumcising male infants,

The U.S. Congres spassed a federal law banning any township, county, or state from banning circumcision or even regulating it.
The New Sea Territory wrote: and the fact that they are infants makes the issue significantly less tyrannical.

How does that make any kind of sense? By this logic FGM is not an issue because it is committed on infants.
The New Sea Territory wrote: Unlike abortion, which has nearly been regulated out of existence in some southern states.

Why does the age of the victim matter?
The New Sea Territory wrote:Your claim of hypocrisy only makes sense if feminists (itself a generalized term that includes some mutually exclusive ideas and theories) were actually supporting male circumcision en masse,

As I said, they either do support it, or are silent on it. The only vocal opposition to it I have heard as been from online feminists who nonetheless do nothing to oppose it.
The New Sea Territory wrote: instead of just laughing at MRAs who think this is actually comparable to issues facing minority groups or women.

Because they do not actually address the issue academically, but rather decide to ridicule their opponents.

The New Sea Territory wrote:You have an actual source for that, or are you just doubling down on meme-esque strawmen?

The professor (a feminist I linked in the OP, and a religous professor who studies women's roles in Judaism and other religions) had you actually read it, claimed attempts to ban circumcision were anti-semitic. This isn't a line of attack unique to feminists, of course, but they should know better than to use it.

The New Sea Territory wrote:The two are comparable in name only. They are not equivalents.

How? They are the exact same; one can feel pleasure and have functional sex without it. They both exist to provide stimulation and ease of sexual interaction.

They serve the exact same purpose.

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Postby Costa Fierro » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:33 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:The two are comparable in name only. They are not equivalents.


You should get one yourself and see what it's like. After all, if it's not as bad as people claim it is then surely more men would have it done voluntarily, right? Or does bodily sovereignty and integrity not apply to a person because they were born with a penis?

The removal of the clitoral hood is designed purely to remove any pleasure a woman has from masturbation or sex. The same thing applies to the foreskin, as it is also important in achieving pleasure from stimulation. Both are designed purely to remove the temptation or the pleasure of sex and masturbation so that people have it less often. It's a method to control both men's and women's sexuality. You can stick your fingers in your ears and scream loudly as long as you want, but the facts remain that they are one in the same. Although your denial speaks loudly at the uselessness of American sexual education.

Anyway, more to the point, it's pretty obvious why feminists don't speak out against circumcision: to control men's sexuality. One of the many things feminism is attempting to do in order to bring about this "equality" we keep hearing so much about.
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Vubaria
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Postby Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:37 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Anyway, more to the point, it's pretty obvious why feminists don't speak out against circumcision: to control men's sexuality. One of the many things feminism is attempting to do in order to bring about this "equality" we keep hearing so much about.

I believe it has more to do with the fact that the motivations behind American feminism is due to selfishness rather than an attempt to control men, It started as an attempt to control pleasure, but it became adopted by the medical community due to myths related to cleanliness and health.

My problem with feminism here is not that they are actively harming men; but rather, the arguments they use in defense of issues important to them either:

1) suddenly do not apply to men
2) do not help women in any way, thus do not serve as a direct benefit to the majority of feminism's supporters (women).

Most feminists here I am sure oppose circumcision. But they would never do anything about it, and whenever the issue is raised, as has happened in the first real post on this thread, women will attempt to trivialize the experiences of men and the struggles they may face.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:39 pm

Literally never heard a feminist defend circumcision.

Literally never heard anyone seriously defend circumcision past a shrug and muttering something about tradition.
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The first Galactic Republic
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Postby The first Galactic Republic » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:41 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
The New Sea Territory wrote:The two are comparable in name only. They are not equivalents.


You should get one yourself and see what it's like. After all, if it's not as bad as people claim it is then surely more men would have it done voluntarily, right? Or does bodily sovereignty and integrity not apply to a person because they were born with a penis?

The removal of the clitoral hood is designed purely to remove any pleasure a woman has from masturbation or sex. The same thing applies to the foreskin, as it is also important in achieving pleasure from stimulation. Both are designed purely to remove the temptation or the pleasure of sex and masturbation so that people have it less often. It's a method to control both men's and women's sexuality. You can stick your fingers in your ears and scream loudly as long as you want, but the facts remain that they are one in the same. Although your denial speaks loudly at the uselessness of American sexual education.

Anyway, more to the point, it's pretty obvious why feminists don't speak out against circumcision: to control men's sexuality. One of the many things feminism is attempting to do in order to bring about this "equality" we keep hearing so much about.

This is bad male anatomy right here. Bad history too.
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Postby Costa Fierro » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:41 pm

No, feminism wants to control men's sexuality because it is part of their over all plan to control men themselves. How we speak, interact and how we develop relationships. Feminism wants to put the control into women's hands, primarily as restitution for the centuries of apparent oppression at the hands of men. It never used to be like this, but recently the castration fantasies and the other sick thoughts that feminists often openly share suddenly became the ideal for feminism, a world where they can crush and belittle men because we "deserve it". Man-hating is the new black.

Think of it as a tit-for-tat battle between the sexes but played out over centuries.
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:42 pm

I'd like my foreskin back, but considering that's not an option, I'd at least like to see the abominable practice of circumsizing baby boys banned.

Oh, and Costa, I'm a feminist, so screw that "feminists are out to oppress men!!!" argument.
Last edited by Wallenburg on Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:42 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:No, feminism wants to control men's sexuality because it is part of their over all plan to control men themselves. How we speak, interact and how we develop relationships. Feminism wants to put the control into women's hands, primarily as restitution for the centuries of apparent oppression at the hands of men. It never used to be like this, but recently the castration fantasies and the other sick thoughts that feminists often openly share suddenly became the ideal for feminism, a world where they can crush and belittle men because we "deserve it". Man-hating is the new black.

Think of it as a tit-for-tat battle between the sexes but played out over centuries.

Have you considered a therapist?
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Postby Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:45 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Literally never heard a feminist defend circumcision.

Literally never heard anyone seriously defend circumcision past a shrug and muttering something about tradition.

Then you are incredibly isolated and coddled; I linked to a feminist's defense of circumcision right in the OP, which I'm sure you didn't read.

The fact is the crux of my argument is that feminists don't all have to support circumcision. The fact is, in the U.S. (an important distinction), feminists have done absolutely nothing to combat circumcision, and the only ones who have done anything have been the oft-ridiculed MRAs. Feminists do not speak out about it, they do fund raise for regenerative medicine, they do not fight politically to end it, they do not raise awareness, and other than online feminists, I have never talked to one who cared.

I don't agree with MRA's on almost any issue but this, but it's impossible to deny feminism in America has a poor ideological founding when the organized groups who have, in fact, been capable of political change (unlike MRAs), have done absolutely nothing to combat, or even alleviate circumcision.

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Postby Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:45 pm

The first Galactic Republic wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
You should get one yourself and see what it's like. After all, if it's not as bad as people claim it is then surely more men would have it done voluntarily, right? Or does bodily sovereignty and integrity not apply to a person because they were born with a penis?

The removal of the clitoral hood is designed purely to remove any pleasure a woman has from masturbation or sex. The same thing applies to the foreskin, as it is also important in achieving pleasure from stimulation. Both are designed purely to remove the temptation or the pleasure of sex and masturbation so that people have it less often. It's a method to control both men's and women's sexuality. You can stick your fingers in your ears and scream loudly as long as you want, but the facts remain that they are one in the same. Although your denial speaks loudly at the uselessness of American sexual education.

Anyway, more to the point, it's pretty obvious why feminists don't speak out against circumcision: to control men's sexuality. One of the many things feminism is attempting to do in order to bring about this "equality" we keep hearing so much about.

This is bad male anatomy right here. Bad history too.

Explain what purpose you think the foreskin serves.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:49 pm

Vubaria wrote:Then you are incredibly isolated and coddled; I linked to a feminist's defense of circumcision right in the OP, which I'm sure you didn't read.

No, I didn't read it because this is the information age; you can get anyone to say anything, and mean it. Idgaf about examples that get passed around like bad chain emails. I care about statistics and cultural trends, personal experiences, and the experiences of others, in that order.

Skimming the two links, the telegraph doesn't seem to be defending circumscision but rather denying that it's a practice comparable to FGM, which is completely true. And as a Brit, it's not exactly common practice over there. Non-Jewish circumcisions is very American.
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Postby The first Galactic Republic » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:51 pm

Vubaria wrote:
The first Galactic Republic wrote:This is bad male anatomy right here. Bad history too.

Explain what purpose you think the foreskin serves.

I think it should be the first poster's responsibility to provide a source for that paragraph. They're making a claim.

It's a piece of skin not an abstract concept. You can't stretch its purpose just to fit your argument. I base my claim that it's bad anatomy on the lack of source, the fact that circumcised men can masturbate just fine, and that circumcision isn't that anatomically comparable, I mean it doesn't serve the same purpose for example, to what women get.
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Postby Vubaria » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:56 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:No, I didn't read it because this is the information age; you can get anyone to say anything, and mean it. Idgaf about examples that get passed around like bad chain emails. I care about statistics and cultural trends, personal experiences, and the experiences of others, in that order.

And yet the refutation you used was a personal anecdote, literally the least useful form of evidence. That is extreme hypocrisy. I specifically mention cultural trends (feminism's inability to do anything about circumcision), there are no statistics on feminists opinions because nobody studies it, and you of course decide that your anecdotes are more useful than others.

The feminist I linked was not some asshole internet dweller. She is a professor at a respected college and a known feminist. That is not nobody.
Conserative Morality wrote:Skimming the two links, the telegraph doesn't seem to be defending circumscision but rather denying that it's a practice comparable to FGM, which is completely true. And as a Brit, it's not exactly common practice over there. Non-Jewish circumcisions is very American.

"I would like to offer a slightly different explanation: we're very happy! There are no international movements calling for an end to circumcision because the billions of men around the planet who have been circumcised have not experienced any negative effects."

"it is deeply irresponsible to attribute the different treatment of these topics as some sort of underhanded feminist conspiracy. To do so threatens simultaneously to generate unwarranted attacks on religious practice, and undermine the important campaign against FGM. "

Claims any attack on feminism's treatment of circumcision is anti-semitic.

The rate of occurrence in the UK doesn't matter, though; my criticism is squarely focused on American feminism.

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Postby Costa Fierro » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:57 pm

Wallenburg wrote:I'd like my foreskin back, but considering that's not an option, I'd at least like to see the abominable practice of circumsizing baby boys banned.

Oh, and Costa, I'm a feminist, so screw that "feminists are out to oppress men!!!" argument.


Men cannot be feminists. It's scary when I agree with radical feminists on something.

Conserative Morality wrote:Have you considered a therapist?


Why?
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:59 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:Men cannot be feminists. It's scary when I agree with radical feminists on something.

Either you are lying and you know it, or you haven't consulted a dictionary (or the real world) in a while.
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Postby Vubaria » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:00 am

The first Galactic Republic wrote:
Vubaria wrote:Explain what purpose you think the foreskin serves.

I think it should be the first poster's responsibility to provide a source for that paragraph. They're making a claim.

It's a piece of skin not an abstract concept. You can't stretch its purpose just to fit your argument. I base my claim that it's bad anatomy on the lack of source, the fact that circumcised men can masturbate just fine, and that circumcision isn't that anatomically comparable, I mean it doesn't serve the same purpose for example, to what women get.

What do you think the clitoral hood does, other than be on a woman?

I can't directly link it (because of pictures), but on the wikipedia page for foreskin:

"The foreskin is specialised tissue that is packed with nerves and contains stretch receptors.[6][26][27] Sorrells et al. (2007) reported the areas of the penis most sensitive to fine touch are on the foreskin.[28]

The foreskin enables the penis to slip in and out of the vagina non-abrasively inside its own sheath of self lubricating, movable skin.[29]"

It serves as protection of the glans, it serves as lubrication during sex, and serves as a pleasure center.

Let's compare that with the clitoral hood:

Same wikipedia page, cannot link because of pictures

"Normally, the clitoral glans itself is too sensitive to be stimulated directly, such as in cases where the hood is retracted.[5] Women with hoods covering most of the clitoral glans can often masturbate by stimulating the hood over the clitoral glans; those with smaller, or more compact, structures tend to rub the clitoral glans and hood together as one item.[5]

The clitoral hood additionally provides protection to the clitoral glans, like foreskin on the penile glans."


They serve the exact same purpose. It's pretty clear you have no idea about the anatomy of either women or men, and simply called that out because you believe whatever happens to men here must, of course, be lesser than women.

Women are capable of masturbating without the clitoral hood. men are capable of masturbating without the foreskin. This does not mean that the reduction of either does not reduce sexual pleasure.

Removal of the clitoral hood used to be, like circumcision, a routine medical practice in some areas until it was declared illegal. The same myths of cleanliness and aesthetics applied to that.
Last edited by Vubaria on Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:03 am

Vubaria wrote:And yet the refutation you used was a personal anecdote, literally the least useful form of evidence.

Not true. Secondhand accounts are the least useful form of evidence.

Like the secondhand accounts you shared.
That is extreme hypocrisy. I specifically mention cultural trends (feminism's inability to do anything about circumcision), there are no statistics on feminists opinions because nobody studies it, and you of course decide that your anecdotes are more useful than others.

The feminist I linked was not some asshole internet dweller. She is a professor at a respected college

You presume the two are mutually exclusive.

They are not.

We are all asshole internet dwellers the moment we open that browser.
and a known feminist. That is not nobody.

"a known feminist"

I can't be the only one who thinks that that sounds weird. As opposed to an unknown feminist?
"I would like to offer a slightly different explanation: we're very happy! There are no international movements calling for an end to circumcision because the billions of men around the planet who have been circumcised have not experienced any negative effects."

Partially true - the vast majority of men don't undergo any negative effects from circumcision.
"it is deeply irresponsible to attribute the different treatment of these topics as some sort of underhanded feminist conspiracy. To do so threatens simultaneously to generate unwarranted attacks on religious practice, and undermine the important campaign against FGM. "

Claims any attack on feminism's treatment of circumcision is anti-semitic.

No, that's really not what it's saying. It's saying that equating FGM and circumcision and blaming the difference in views on THE FEMINISTS necessarily implies that circumcision is as harmful as FGM and that everyone who says otherwise is part of the feminist smokescreen. That's damaging to the defences of circumcision as a religious ritual.
The rate of occurrence in the UK doesn't matter, though; my criticism is squarely focused on American feminism.

Then don't link the fucking Telegraph.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:05 am

Costa Fierro wrote:Men cannot be feminists. It's scary when I agree with radical feminists on something.

Fighting enemies is so much easier when you define them, eh?
Why?

You sound like you got a lotta anger and paranoia. And not the fun kind. This isn't leading to Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. This is leading to writing "Purity of Essence" over and over again in a notebook and worrying about precious bodily fluids.
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Postby Minzerland » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:06 am

Vubaria wrote:The right of bodily autonomy is the chief defense of many women's rights concepts: the right to an abortion, the right to contraception, and defense against female genetial mutilation. All of these are noble goals that I agree with, and because of such, largely consider myself a feminist.

In Europe, the criticism I am about to levy is not true; many feminists take heart this argument and, in fact, do pursue the ban of non-medical infant circumcision. That is why in many nations where it is not a common practice, it is either outright illegal or very difficult to perform, and almost always not covered by the universal healthcare these nations often provide.

In the US however, where male circumcision is routinely preformed on infants by the million, there has been a noticeable silence on circumcision. While by no means speakers of the entire feminist movement, online feminists have routinely trivialized the issue and more or less claimed, even if they are personally against it, that circumcision is not an important issue.

The fact is, while many feminists in the US no doubt don't support circumcision, there has been absolutely 0 discussion about it by feminists, prominent or not. Some claim to oppose it is anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic, even.

The fact is, it does objectively hurt sexual pleasure; it eliminates a plethora of nerves and takes away a piece of skin that serves as natural lubricant. But that doesn't even matter, because it is almost 100% of the time, an unnecessary, cosmetic surgery. It is a permanent alteration of a person's genitals, the exact consequences of which we do not fully understand.

Yet despite this, most feminist groups are silent. The equivalent of male circumcision, the removal of the clitoral hood, is flat out illegal since 1997. This is because any alteration of a woman's genitalia was seen as a violation of her bodily autonomy, and thus was a barbaric act.

Yet this same logic does not apply to men; feminist groups either defend the practice or are silent on it. The right to bodily autonomy does not apply to men, in the US, nor does it in the Middle East, South Korea, or the Philippines.

It is for this reason why I, someone who agrees with most tenets of feminism, and who is in any other capacity, liberal, can not take seriously the majority of feminist groups or their leaders. They are intellectually dishonest, at best sacrificing people they claim to fight for, and at worst engaging in the systemic oppression they criticize.

After all, it is generally agreed that the patriarchy hurts men as it does women; and that men do not need a separate movement. Yet there is no movement that helps men escape circumcision, as feminism in the US, as an organized ideology and political group, has completely failed to help them.

I agree entirely.
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Costa Fierro
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Founded: Dec 09, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Costa Fierro » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:09 am

Wallenburg wrote:Either you are lying and you know it, or you haven't consulted a dictionary (or the real world) in a while.


It's a sad, sad day when I agree with the sentiments of this woman.

Men cannot be feminists because they are not women and therefore cannot understand women's issues. In the same way women cannot be masculinists because they are women.

Also, FYI, there is such a thing as "foreskin restoration".

The first Galactic Republic wrote:I think it should be the first poster's responsibility to provide a source for that paragraph. They're making a claim.


I have a Wikipedia article which explains the foreskin's role in aiding sexual pleasure. However, I am hesitant to post it as it includes pictures of...well...penises. And that is considered NSFW and probably against the site's PG-13 rules, unless the mods make an exception for educational purposes.
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Conserative Morality
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Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:10 am

Costa Fierro wrote:Men cannot be feminists because they are not women and therefore cannot understand women's issues. In the same way women cannot be masculinists because they are women.

That's some pretty hefty identity politics right there.
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