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[TWI ONLY] The Senate of the Western Isles

Where nations come together and discuss matters of varying degrees of importance. [In character]

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Agadar
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Founded: Dec 06, 2009
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Postby Agadar » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:32 pm

Polar Svalbard wrote:And if that one CTE's?


If Vancouvia's already had CTE'd by then, then this 'Secretary of Endorsements' should have already appointed his own successor together with the rest of the government.

If both Van and this secretary CTE at the same time, then I suppose we better hope we have an executive government that can take quick action to ensure the safety of the region. But, that seems like such a rare situation it's not really an argument against this suggestion.
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Polar Svalbard
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Postby Polar Svalbard » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:44 pm

Just bringing up possible arguments, don't be an ass.
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Agadar
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Postby Agadar » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:49 pm

Polar Svalbard wrote:Just bringing up possible arguments, don't be an ass.


How am I being an ass?
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Taziristan
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Founded: Jun 11, 2016
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Postby Taziristan » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:44 pm

Personal issues should be dealt with on the RMB or, preferably, telegram. Calling people an ass on the Senate floor is degrading to the government.
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Dashgrinaar
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Postby Dashgrinaar » Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:06 pm

Going along with Agadar's scenario that both Van and the Secretary of Endorsements CTE at the same time, then the President or Vice President should assume the role of Secretary of Endorsments until the Executive appoints a new person (privately).
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United Great Britian
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Founded: Feb 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby United Great Britian » Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:13 am

Agadar wrote:
United Great Britian wrote:I think we should immediately banject Ayeris Islands


This cannot be done within the confines of regional law, or at least not until we implement an endorsement cap.

Here's an idea, which I believe I already proposed to Tazir on the RMB, though correct me if I'm wrong: the problem with making it so that the President is the delegate is that the Presidential office, like all regional offices, is a fickle one in the sense that anyone can challenge him and thus replace him. As we are a democracy, even the newest and most untrustworthy nations could potentially become President, and thus delegate.

As such, it might be better to appoint someone for life to the position of 'Vice-Founder' or 'Secretary of Endorsements/the World Assembly' or whatever descriptive name we make up for it. Life-long, so that not anyone and their dog can challenge for the position, and appointed via agreement between ALL government branches AND the Founder, so that we know for certain this person is someone we can trust with the keys to the region. Most importantly, someone Vancouvia would trust to replace him should he CTE.

Besides being the man to ensure the region does not fall to raiders and chaos should Van ever CTE, this person would also be responsible for enforcing the endorsement cap, i.e. telegramming warnings to those who breach the caps and banjecting/informing the Founder/President to banject breachers.

Thoughts?

In addition, I believe that if Van plans to leave he should share account details for a more smooth transition,
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United Great Britian
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Founded: Feb 09, 2014
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Postby United Great Britian » Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:13 am

Agadar wrote:
Vancouvia wrote:Yes, I agree. It should be more than one person though, maybe three people who are appointed.


The problem I foresee with having more than one person fulfill those duties is rivalry between them. After all, whoever has the most endorsements would be the one to 'inherit the kingdom' or so to speak. It would breed hostility between the office-holders. If there is only one, however, we can be assured that he will be focussing on doing his job properly as opposed to trying to beat his peers.

I agree with this.
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Doppler
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Founded: Apr 30, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Doppler » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:02 pm

Agadar wrote:
Polar Svalbard wrote:And if that one CTE's?


If Vancouvia's already had CTE'd by then, then this 'Secretary of Endorsements' should have already appointed his own successor together with the rest of the government.

If both Van and this secretary CTE at the same time, then I suppose we better hope we have an executive government that can take quick action to ensure the safety of the region. But, that seems like such a rare situation it's not really an argument against this suggestion.

It should be very easy to catch on if some one is about to CTE, let alone Van and his secretary.
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Agadar
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Agadar » Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:07 pm

Agadar wrote:
United Great Britian wrote:I think we should immediately banject Ayeris Islands


This cannot be done within the confines of regional law, or at least not until we implement an endorsement cap.

Here's an idea, which I believe I already proposed to Tazir on the RMB, though correct me if I'm wrong: the problem with making it so that the President is the delegate is that the Presidential office, like all regional offices, is a fickle one in the sense that anyone can challenge him and thus replace him. As we are a democracy, even the newest and most untrustworthy nations could potentially become President, and thus delegate.

As such, it might be better to appoint someone for life to the position of 'Vice-Founder' or 'Secretary of Endorsements/the World Assembly' or whatever descriptive name we make up for it. Life-long, so that not anyone and their dog can challenge for the position, and appointed via agreement between ALL government branches AND the Founder, so that we know for certain this person is someone we can trust with the keys to the region. Most importantly, someone Vancouvia would trust to replace him should he CTE.

Besides being the man to ensure the region does not fall to raiders and chaos should Van ever CTE, this person would also be responsible for enforcing the endorsement cap, i.e. telegramming warnings to those who breach the caps and banjecting/informing the Founder/President to banject breachers.

Thoughts?


The sentiment towards this idea seems positive. I will see to have a more formal version of this proposal realized in the form of an amendment. I'm expecting to have it up within two or three days from now.
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Agadar
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Founded: Dec 06, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Agadar » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:06 pm

Secretary of Endorsements Amendment

“A constitutional amendment to safeguard the survival and integrity of the region should the Founder ever cease to exist or otherwise lose Founder-ship of the region"



Preamble

The Western Isles prides itself, among many other things, for its stability and integrity. Much of this can be credited to the simple fact that the region's Founder, Vancouvia, still exists: indeed, as long as a region's Founder exists, it is almost impossible for that region to fall victim to the many hostile elements found within NationStates, the most notable one being raider groups.

Yet, herein lies a problem: should the Founder ever cease to exist or otherwise lose Founder-ship of the region, then the region will be at the mercy of these hostile elements, unless proper precautions are taken. Considering the office of World Assembly Delegate automatically gains the Founder's powers upon the latter losing Founder-ship, and the office of World Assembly Delegate is automatically bestowed upon whoever has the most endorsements, it is in this area of the game mechanics where these precautions should be taken.

The precaution this constitutional amendment seeks to take is that of creating the office of 'Secretary of Endorsements'. This office would be responsible for enforcing so-called 'endorsement caps' upon the region to ensure that, should the Founder ever lose Founder-ship of the region, the Secretary of Endorsements will become the World Assembly Delegate, thus ensuring the survival and integrity of the region.

Secretary of Endorsements

(1) Adds to ARTICLE II: EXECUTIVE BRANCH:

Section 8: Secretary of Endorsements
The Secretary of Endorsements is an officer position, but it is not an elected office. The Founder appoints the Secretary of Endorsements, with approval from the President and majority votes from the Senate and the Supreme Court. The Secretary of Endorsements serves under the President. The duties of the Secretary of Endorsements include:
- Enforcing endorsement caps upon the region and taking other such measures to ensure no one threatens to steal the position of World Assembly Delegate from the Founder or Secretary of Endorsements
- Assuming the role of Founder and all responsibilities and duties that come with it as outlined in this constitution and regional laws should the Founder lose his Founder-ship

(2) The numbering of articles and sections shall be fixed to reflect the above change, as needed.

(3) The regional government is urged to appoint the Secretary of Endorsements as soon as possible after this amendment is passed.


Much to my surprise, I could not quite find anything else that would need to be amended in the constitution in order to to pave the way for this solution.

I'm looking forward to everyone's opinions.

EDIT: Changed the section number from 10 to 8.
Last edited by Agadar on Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vancouvia
Minister
 
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Founded: Sep 19, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Vancouvia » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:26 pm

Could we alter it slightly and include under it's duties also to

-Encourage all residents to join the World Assembly and actively participate in votes and discussions

-Encourage members to endorse the World Assembly Delegate and other members of the government

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Agadar
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Founded: Dec 06, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Agadar » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:57 am

Secretary of Endorsements Amendment

“A constitutional amendment to safeguard the survival and integrity of the region should the Founder ever cease to exist or otherwise lose Founder-ship of the region"



Preamble

The Western Isles prides itself, among many other things, for its stability and integrity. Much of this can be credited to the simple fact that the region's Founder, Vancouvia, still exists: indeed, as long as a region's Founder exists, it is almost impossible for that region to fall victim to the many hostile elements found within NationStates, the most notable one being raider groups.

Yet, herein lies a problem: should the Founder ever cease to exist or otherwise lose Founder-ship of the region, then the region will be at the mercy of these hostile elements, unless proper precautions are taken. Considering the office of World Assembly Delegate automatically gains the Founder's powers upon the latter losing Founder-ship, and the office of World Assembly Delegate is automatically bestowed upon whoever has the most endorsements, it is in this area of the game mechanics where these precautions should be taken.

The precaution this constitutional amendment seeks to take is that of creating the office of 'Secretary of Endorsements'. This office would be responsible for enforcing so-called 'endorsement caps' upon the region to ensure that, should the Founder ever lose Founder-ship of the region, the Secretary of Endorsements will become the World Assembly Delegate, thus ensuring the survival and integrity of the region.

Secretary of Endorsements

(1) Adds to ARTICLE II: EXECUTIVE BRANCH:

Section 8: Secretary of Endorsements
The Secretary of Endorsements is an officer position, but it is not an elected office. The Founder appoints the Secretary of Endorsements, with approval from the President and majority votes from the Senate and the Supreme Court. The Secretary of Endorsements serves under the President. The duties of the Secretary of Endorsements include:
- Enforcing endorsement caps upon the region and taking other such measures to ensure no one threatens to steal the position of World Assembly Delegate from the Founder or Secretary of Endorsements
- Encouraging residents to join the World Assembly and to actively participate in its votes and discussions
- Encouraging residents to endorse the Founder and the Secretary of Endorsements
- Assuming the role of Founder and all responsibilities and duties that come with it as outlined in this constitution and regional laws should the Founder lose his Founder-ship

(2) The numbering of articles and sections shall be fixed to reflect the above change, as needed.

(3) The regional government is urged to appoint the Secretary of Endorsements as soon as possible after this amendment is passed.


Great suggestion, Van. I was previously too focused on the primary duty of the position (being the region's fail-safe) that I'd forgotten about any secondary duties the office could entail. Added both of your suggested lines to the proposal, though altered the second line so that it is only encouraged to endorse the Founder and the EndorSec, not all members of government, as the latter would still be subject to the endorsement caps and thus encouraging people to endorse them might lead to them violating the caps, which would be quite an awkward position to bring us in.
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Verdon
Diplomat
 
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Founded: Apr 27, 2015
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Verdon » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:09 am

So if Van quits/CTEs, the SecEnd becomes WA Delegate, and that position also becomes executive. Thus, a new SecEnd will need to be appointed. Should it say that the founder or WA Delegate appoints the SecEnd, since after van is gone, there is no founder?

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Polar Svalbard
Senator
 
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Founded: Mar 28, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Polar Svalbard » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:53 am

Verdon wrote:So if Van quits/CTEs, the SecEnd becomes WA Delegate, and that position also becomes executive. Thus, a new SecEnd will need to be appointed. Should it say that the founder or WA Delegate appoints the SecEnd, since after van is gone, there is no founder?

I believe that right here provides an answer
"Assuming the role of Founder and all responsibilities and duties that come with it as outlined in this constitution and regional laws should the Founder lose his Founder-ship"
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Agadar
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Founded: Dec 06, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Agadar » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:45 pm

Polar Svalbard wrote:
Verdon wrote:So if Van quits/CTEs, the SecEnd becomes WA Delegate, and that position also becomes executive. Thus, a new SecEnd will need to be appointed. Should it say that the founder or WA Delegate appoints the SecEnd, since after van is gone, there is no founder?

I believe that right here provides an answer
"Assuming the role of Founder and all responsibilities and duties that come with it as outlined in this constitution and regional laws should the Founder lose his Founder-ship"


Precisely that. Should Vancouvia lose founder-ship, then, in the eyes of the law, the SecEnd would be the new Founder.
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Verdon
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Founded: Apr 27, 2015
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Verdon » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:24 pm

Got it, thanks.

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Agadar
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Founded: Dec 06, 2009
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Postby Agadar » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:16 am

Any other suggestions/remarks/arguments for the proposal?
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Eutriston
Envoy
 
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Founded: Jun 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Eutriston » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:56 pm

Agadar wrote:Any other suggestions/remarks/arguments for the proposal?

Personally, much like the deceased Secretary of Defense position that looks needed in the short-term, I think this could be a position that runs out of things to do quickly.
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Taziristan
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Founded: Jun 11, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Taziristan » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:01 am

Eutriston wrote:
Agadar wrote:Any other suggestions/remarks/arguments for the proposal?

Personally, much like the deceased Secretary of Defense position that looks needed in the short-term, I think this could be a position that runs out of things to do quickly.

He wouldn't need to do anything unless van CTEd
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Dashgrinaar
Minister
 
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Founded: Apr 30, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Dashgrinaar » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:18 am

Also, the bill should detail where/who will set the endorsement caps. Does the Senate, Founder, or SecEnd do that?
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Taziristan
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Founded: Jun 11, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Taziristan » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:56 am

Wouldn't that best be described by law in the senate?
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Realm of Councilry
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Posts: 482
Founded: Feb 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Realm of Councilry » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:25 am

Agadar wrote:Any other suggestions/remarks/arguments for the proposal?

I think it's good, but I don't think the position is necessary.
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Agadar
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Founded: Dec 06, 2009
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Postby Agadar » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:30 am

Eutriston wrote:
Agadar wrote:Any other suggestions/remarks/arguments for the proposal?

Personally, much like the deceased Secretary of Defense position that looks needed in the short-term, I think this could be a position that runs out of things to do quickly.


I disagree. Enforcing endorsement caps and getting people to become active in the WA and endorse the Founder/EndorSec is a continuous process. On top of that, even if there will be periods of time during which the EndorsSec will have little or nothing to do, that is irrelevant: his primary duty is to be the region's fail-safe in the case of Founder CTE. Everything else is just sugar on top.

Dashgrinaar wrote:Also, the bill should detail where/who will set the endorsement caps. Does the Senate, Founder, or SecEnd do that?


In my opinion, setting endorsement caps and other such matters should be done via Executive Orders by the EndorSec, or simply via a public declaration backed by the Founder/President: endorsement numbers tend to fluctuate, and the Senate is too slow to quickly change endorsement caps to accommodate such fluctuations.

Realm of Councilry wrote:
Agadar wrote:Any other suggestions/remarks/arguments for the proposal?

I think it's good, but I don't think the position is necessary.


I believe quite the opposite. If Vancouvia were to be banned for something right this instant, the entire region would fall in the hands of that one unknown guy who's secretly been gathering endorsements while suspiciously never partaking in ANY discussions in any of TWI's communication channels. A similar situation would occur if Van were to CTE, albeit we might be able to notice that in time and take the proper measures we are already taking right now by openly debating it and proposing a solution.
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Eutriston
Envoy
 
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Founded: Jun 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Eutriston » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:25 am

Agadar wrote:I disagree. Enforcing endorsement caps and getting people to become active in the WA and endorse the Founder/EndorSec is a continuous process. On top of that, even if there will be periods of time during which the EndorsSec will have little or nothing to do, that is irrelevant: his primary duty is to be the region's fail-safe in the case of Founder CTE. Everything else is just sugar on top.

In my opinion, setting endorsement caps and other such matters should be done via Executive Orders by the EndorSec, or simply via a public declaration backed by the Founder/President: endorsement numbers tend to fluctuate, and the Senate is too slow to quickly change endorsement caps to accommodate such fluctuations.

I believe quite the opposite. If Vancouvia were to be banned for something right this instant, the entire region would fall in the hands of that one unknown guy who's secretly been gathering endorsements while suspiciously never partaking in ANY discussions in any of TWI's communication channels. A similar situation would occur if Van were to CTE, albeit we might be able to notice that in time and take the proper measures we are already taking right now by openly debating it and proposing a solution.

How are you going to enforce said endorsement cap? You can't just kick Ayeris out, and you can't get people to lower their endorsements, it's not in them who did it in the first place. Furthermore, this region has shown time and time again about how much we actually care about the World Assembly, being not much. Yeah sure, whoever gets the position can try and recruit World Assembly members, but most active nations do that by themselves. Furthermore, this can already be done without any amendments in the first place, citing Article II; Section 2 and 3:

Section 2: Executive Powers
Executive officers may issue executive orders, so long as those orders do not violate the Rights of Nations and are within the scope of their office. If the nature of an order is ambiguous then the President shall decide under which executive officer's scope it falls under. Executive orders must be issued from a single office, but they may be supported by other executive officers. Any executive order can be overruled by the President. Newly elected officers can reverse or amend the orders of any of their predecessors. Executive Orders may not in any way, directly or indirectly, grant powers to, or otherwise alter the powers of, Executive Officers. Officers may informally recruit other nations to help them with their duties.

Section 3: President
The President shall be the head of state of the region. The duties of the President include:
-Leading the region through both normal operations and extraordinary crises
-Supervising the conduct of executive officers
-Determining reasonable periods of time for actions to commence
-Providing necessary services and actions for previously unforeseen matters


We all know the executives can give executive orders, and it is clearly in the Presidents scope to provide neccasary actions for previously unforeseen matters. Knowing this, and that what to do if Van disappears is a previously unforeseen matter that needs action, the President could simply issue an executive order and appoint an heir to the WA Delegate position or if needed issue an endorsement cap, but I personally think the fact this region doesn't have one attracts people, it did for me.
Last edited by Eutriston on Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Capitalism is Much Superior Commie
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Former Member of the Information Committee of The Western Isles
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Realm of Councilry
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 482
Founded: Feb 07, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Realm of Councilry » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:35 am

Eutriston wrote:
Agadar wrote:I disagree. Enforcing endorsement caps and getting people to become active in the WA and endorse the Founder/EndorSec is a continuous process. On top of that, even if there will be periods of time during which the EndorsSec will have little or nothing to do, that is irrelevant: his primary duty is to be the region's fail-safe in the case of Founder CTE. Everything else is just sugar on top.

In my opinion, setting endorsement caps and other such matters should be done via Executive Orders by the EndorSec, or simply via a public declaration backed by the Founder/President: endorsement numbers tend to fluctuate, and the Senate is too slow to quickly change endorsement caps to accommodate such fluctuations.

I believe quite the opposite. If Vancouvia were to be banned for something right this instant, the entire region would fall in the hands of that one unknown guy who's secretly been gathering endorsements while suspiciously never partaking in ANY discussions in any of TWI's communication channels. A similar situation would occur if Van were to CTE, albeit we might be able to notice that in time and take the proper measures we are already taking right now by openly debating it and proposing a solution.

How are you going to enforce said endorsement cap? You can't just kick Ayeris out, and you can't get people to lower their endorsements, it's not in them who did it in the first place. Furthermore, this region has shown time and time again about how much we actually care about the World Assembly, being not much. Yeah sure, whoever gets the position can try and recruit World Assembly members, but most active nations do that by themselves. Furthermore, it'd be a lot easier to just amend the constitution to give the President or Founder the authority to appoint an heir to the WA Delegate position instead of make an entire position itself which will be seldom needed in the first place.

I like that idea! Or it could just be the current president, then the Vice President becomes president, then there would be an election for Vice President. And doesn't the name Secretary of Endorsments just sound weird?
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