DEN NEWS | Operation Blitz: Atlantis Invaded!

[Ayvari]

Also, NS has been boring for the last few days so at least this is something to talk about

I agree, the SC is dead and I only barely care about the TWP thing. Otherwise there's nothing interesting happening in Gameplay. We need some manufactured controversy to scream about, before we all go nutty from the boredom.

Todd could always revive Fox Rite and call TEP an occupation. Raven could say that TNP is now ruled by the UDL. Rach could give Balder to the FRA. Tim could say he gave Osiris back to XKI (Wordy). Tsu could say that Sedge/Devonitians is ruling TSP, or that he gave it to Empire. Lazarus can say that they gave it to Durk. TRR can go to...LKE? I guess TWP could go back to DEN or something. And TP can go to CrazyGirl.

[YoriZ]

I agree, the SC is dead and I only barely care about the TWP thing. Otherwise there's nothing interesting happening in Gameplay. We need some manufactured controversy to scream about, before we all go nutty from the boredom.

Todd could always revive Fox Rite and call TEP an occupation. Raven could say that TNP is now ruled by the UDL. Rach could give Balder to the FRA. Tim could say he gave Osiris back to XKI (Wordy). Tsu could say that Sedge/Devonitians is ruling TSP, or that he gave it to Empire. Lazarus can say that they gave it to Durk. TRR can go to...LKE? I guess TWP could go back to DEN or something. And TP can go to CrazyGirl.

Great ideas and then everybody could forget about Anarchy and leave the region alone.

DEN: Try invading a real target for your birthday party. Anarchy has been a neutral region for over a decade. It has also been done before by TBR, before the script rule breaking incident.

[Onderkelkia]

The FRA used to reject the aggressive defender approach and defended raider regions, but regions like LKE still used that as a casus belli for 'war'/an excuse for Onder to rant about something.

The argument which you are making here is completely nonsensical. If FRA forces entered United Kingdom of Britain in the belief that it was a "raider region", then the FRA presumably knew of UKB's connection to the LKE - in which case they made a conscious choice to attack an LKE colony.

Alternatively, if FRA forces entered UKB without that belief, then how exactly can you cite it as an example of the FRA choosing to defend "raider regions"?

In any case, the FRA saw LKE troops move into an LKE colony, moved their own troops in and seized the Delegacy. Regardless of their motivation, the FRA is accountable for that. The FRA Rangers are not a world police force with universally recognised license to move their soldiers wherever they like without the consent of the owners. Defending is best done by parties linked to the region under attack, who can make an informed decision whether to intervene.

[Knot II]

Happy anniversary http://www.nationstates.net/region=den_central_command

I remember when TITO also made a huge deal about their tag-raid on Lone Wolves United, even when Evil Wolf was waiting for them to jump in. Taking screenshots, awarding medals, all the bells and whistles.

But hey, when TITO has neither the ability to defend nor the ability to liberate... any odd mission counts as a small step towards knighthood.

[Benevolent Thomas]

All I've heard since the closing of the Wardens is people lamenting its loss and now apparently the Grey Defender has become a White Knight. Does anyone out there besides Cormac and Ivo remember the constant shnikes that got hurled at us for the entirety of our brief existence? Invaders hated us. Defenders hated us. It was truly a dream come true until we began hating us. It took me months to repair some of my relationships. Hell, there is still some ill-will lingering from that time. It has completely changed the way I perceive my relationships in this game and my role in gameplay. This utter change in attitude towards myself and the legacy (how the heck does it have a legacy?) of the Grey Wardens has to be either entirely insincere or the vitriol of its day was insincere.

[Guy]

All I've heard since the closing of the Wardens is people lamenting its loss and now apparently the Grey Defender has become a White Knight. Does anyone out there besides Cormac and Ivo remember the constant shnikes that got hurled at us for the entirety of our brief existence? Invaders hated us. Defenders hated us. It was truly a dream come true until we began hating us. It took me months to repair some of my relationships. Hell, there is still some ill-will lingering from that time. It has completely changed the way I perceive my relationships in this game and my role in gameplay. This utter change in attitude towards myself and the legacy (how the heck does it have a legacy?) of the Grey Wardens has to be either entirely insincere or the vitriol of its day was insincere.

Since I'm probably seen (probably justly) as one of TGW's greater antagonists, while in retrospect I think some of the rhetoric may have been overblown or insensitive, I can't say I've changed my opinion. I respect that you went into a lot of effort with it to try to make it work (and even more than that, to try to make it a truly excellent military), our divergence of opinions on these matters probably remains.

This isn't the TGW thread, so on the invasion ... I think LR put it best: amusing. Given the Imps invade regions based on far looser relations -- like the time they invaded Canada for participating in an RP event hosted by Wysteria, which in turn has relations and invited to the event 10ki and Spiritus, who in turn work together with the UDL and the FRA to "undermine UIAF operations" -- I think the accusations of 'irrelevance' coming from some are misplaced.

Had the operation been successful, it would have been a far bigger scalp than most political invasions we've seen recently. Remember when UIAF claimed walking into the FRA trap in Liberty Alliance as some great victory? o.o

[Gest]

or the vitriol of its day was insincere.

Nah the defender vitriol was probably real. They don't dare pull that on TITO because they're much bigger than you were and they need them.

[Morndul]

Does anyone out there besides Cormac and Ivo remember the constant shnikes that got hurled at us for the entirety of our brief existence?

I sure remember, but then again I did technically participate in the Madrigal occupation.

[Guy]

or the vitriol of its day was insincere.

Nah the defender vitriol was probably real. They don't dare pull that on TITO because they're much bigger than you were and they need them.

That's entirely inaccurate, and the premise of your reply is completely baseless and shows a lack of understanding of the issues.

First, "they" (i.e. the defenders cited in your post) worked far more closely with TGW than we ever have with TITO. The latter group is very much fragmented from the rest of the defender world.

Second, the differences between some other defenders and TGW are non-applicable to TITO, and in fact represents defenders taking a more TITO-esque stance on some matters than TGW did.

Third, to suggest that TITO doesn't know we strongly disagree with it on many fronts, that this hampers cooperation, and that it is not immune from criticism (and even opposition on the field) would be absolutely false. That you are unaware of all these things simply exhibits your ignorance.

[Ayvari]

or the vitriol of its day was insincere.

Nah the defender vitriol was probably real. They don't dare pull that on TITO because they're much bigger than you were and they need them.

Defenders tend to not hold back when they really have opinions of each other. How else do you think you got Ivo? Or Mall, Rawr, etc? And they definitely have opinions. Although hostility seems to have dimmed down between TITO and the rest of the defenders post-Unibot. Iirc, TITO refused to work in libs he was in at one point - which was his fault for being unnecessarily hostile.

The general group of defenders and TITO have less in common than you'd guess from the other side. If anything, the difference is similar to that between raiders and Imperialists. They work together, but their goals aren't the same in terms of the overall picture. TITO's war takes priority over a liberation when the chance arises. If we don't criticize the Imperialists for raiding things like Liberty Alliance with a raiding party so big that every viable target in the Founderless book was possible to raid was used on a delegateless, tiny region, we really can't fall down on TITO too hard for considering, say, DEN Central Command a priority over a mere raid on a region that has no meaning to them in the long run.

Then again, it wouldn't be Gameplay without a smidge of double-standards.

[Guy]

Nah the defender vitriol was probably real. They don't dare pull that on TITO because they're much bigger than you were and they need them.

Defenders tend to not hold back when they really have opinions of each other. How else do you think you got Ivo? Or Mall, Rawr, etc? And they definitely have opinions.

You are far from entirely correct too - which I'd like to attribute to forgetfulness or ignorance.

Ivo's case is somewhat unique in that he repeatedly misled other defenders, and utilised their efforts to engage in highly questionable actions and sometimes outright invasions. This was not a one-off, rather a modus operandi. He was, effectively, a mole. And got treated like moles are supposed to. I'm unaware of the circumstances of Mall's departure, but I'm fairly certain Rawr's did not have much to do with criticisms by fellow defenders at large.

The general group of defenders and TITO have less in common than you'd guess from the other side. If anything, the difference is similar to that between raiders and Imperialists. They work together, but their goals aren't the same in terms of the overall picture.

I disagree with this. Our differences with TITO revolve mostly around the very general philosophy, and the very specific tactics. Our goals, however, are the same - the protection of founderless regions. That 10ki, as a region, preferences its wars over defending other regions is actually far from unique to it. Most other defender regional militaries would act in exactly the same way.

[Ayvari]

Ivo's case is somewhat unique in that he repeatedly misled other defenders, and utilised their efforts to engage in highly questionable actions and sometimes outright invasions. This was not a one-off, rather a modus operandi. He was, effectively, a mole. And got treated like moles are supposed to. I'm unaware of the circumstances of Mall's departure, but I'm fairly certain Rawr's did not have much to do with criticisms by fellow defenders at large.

Mall and Rawr were both Unibot's fault if I heard correctly. That's where all the jokes about Unibot making new generations of raiders came from.

[The Silver Sentinel]

or the vitriol of its day was insincere.

"Circle gets the square. Goodnight everyone!!!"

[Cormactopia II]

You are far from entirely correct too - which I'd like to attribute to forgetfulness or ignorance.

Ivo's case is somewhat unique in that he repeatedly misled other defenders, and utilised their efforts to engage in highly questionable actions and sometimes outright invasions. This was not a one-off, rather a modus operandi. He was, effectively, a mole. And got treated like moles are supposed to.

Ivo was not "a mole." He was more open than most other defenders to invading fascist and Nazi regions, and inappropriately used his access to #jump on several occasions to recruit for those invasions. You can argue that was inappropriate, but arguing that he was "a mole" is an entirely different argument. A mole for whom? EPSA, the military he was doing these invasions with? I would hope you aren't accusing The East Pacific of sending a mole to subvert defender operations.

Regarding Xoriet's supposed "forgetfulness or ignorance," I think she would remember better than most how vitriolic defenders can be and how they don't hold back their opinions of each other. What she said is accurate and you were very often one of the people responsible for the vitriol.

[Guy]

Ivo's case is somewhat unique in that he repeatedly misled other defenders, and utilised their efforts to engage in highly questionable actions and sometimes outright invasions. This was not a one-off, rather a modus operandi. He was, effectively, a mole. And got treated like moles are supposed to. I'm unaware of the circumstances of Mall's departure, but I'm fairly certain Rawr's did not have much to do with criticisms by fellow defenders at large.

Mall and Rawr were both Unibot's fault if I heard correctly. That's where all the jokes about Unibot making new generations of raiders came from.

I'd agree with this assessment re: Rawr, which is the case I'm familiar with. I think it's not accurate then to say it's the result of defenders ripping each other to pieces, if it's a fairly singular problem.

[The Bruce]

Defenders tend to not hold back when they really have opinions of each other. How else do you think you got Ivo? Or Mall, Rawr, etc? And they definitely have opinions.

You are far from entirely correct too - which I'd like to attribute to forgetfulness or ignorance.

Ivo's case is somewhat unique in that he repeatedly misled other defenders, and utilised their efforts to engage in highly questionable actions and sometimes outright invasions. This was not a one-off, rather a modus operandi. He was, effectively, a mole. And got treated like moles are supposed to. I'm unaware of the circumstances of Mall's departure, but I'm fairly certain Rawr's did not have much to do with criticisms by fellow defenders at large.

The general group of defenders and TITO have less in common than you'd guess from the other side. If anything, the difference is similar to that between raiders and Imperialists. They work together, but their goals aren't the same in terms of the overall picture.

I disagree with this. Our differences with TITO revolve mostly around the very general philosophy, and the very specific tactics. Our goals, however, are the same - the protection of founderless regions. That 10ki, as a region, preferences its wars over defending other regions is actually far from unique to it. Most other defender regional militaries would act in exactly the same way.

To be fair, the seizure of invader regions by TITO is preceded by that invader group formerly declaring war on TITO and the 10000 Islands. They are then shocked that after declaring war ("we will bury you, yada, yada, yada") that the region they declared war on actually does something to them when they are vulnerable to attack. It should also be noted that nobody cries about their region being invaded like an invader does. Partly, this is due to invaders being much more active on the "Gameplay" forum than either defenders or members of victim regions (who in many cases are completely unaware that there is a NS forum where people are crowing over the latest tag raid).

[Cormactopia II]

To be fair, the seizure of invader regions by TITO is preceded by that invader group formerly declaring war on TITO and the 10000 Islands.

When did DEN declare war on 10000 Islands?

[Ananke II]

To be fair, the seizure of invader regions by TITO is preceded by that invader group formerly declaring war on TITO and the 10000 Islands.

When did DEN declare war on 10000 Islands?

I think them getting our founder deleted back in the day kinda took care of that...

[Cormactopia II]

I think them getting our founder deleted back in the day kinda took care of that...

But I thought this version of DEN and the 2012 DEN Central Command version were "zombie branding" raiders that aren't at all connected to the earlier version of DEN? Which is it?

[The old wildlife pen pal]

It's almost like, shock horror, people have different opinions.

Ananke didn't participate in the (just) previous discussion. How you've managed to attribute a position held by some, to her, I'm not sure. Try again

[Cormactopia II]

It's almost like, shock horror, people have different opinions.

Ananke didn't participate in the (just) previous discussion. How you've managed to attribute a position held by some, to her, I'm not sure. Try again

The Bruce could also answer it, since he's the one who suggested TITO was just retaliating against DEN for a war declaration, and is also the one who has consistently maintained that modern versions of DEN aren't the "real" DEN from earlier years.

[The old wildlife pen pal]

Thank you

In future can I recommend making it clear who you're trying to attack. You are so prolific at it that it is difficult to keep up at times.

[Cormactopia II]

Thank you

In future can I recommend making it clear who you're trying to attack. You are so prolific at it that it is difficult to keep up at times.

But at least I don't do it from anonymous puppets.

[The old wildlife pen pal]

Yes, yes, everyone hates a puppet. Let's skip this next time, it's incredibly tiresome.

Besides, for all intents and purposes, this is my main now.

[DEN NEWS AGENCY]

Exactly 12 years ago, General Colin Powell founded DEN, arguably the most significant invader organization to date. With the invasion of 2 Miles Past Nowhere, DEN began an illustrious history of invading high-profile regions and fighting defender hegemonic organizations such as TITO.

Exactly ten months ago, the remaining members of The Black Riders, with the blessing of former DEN leadership, began rebuilding this long-forgotten organization again, carefully molding a new identity while remaining aware of the past histories of both DEN and TBR.

As he passed his command to a new Field Marshal, General Powell was optimistic about the future, stating: "So far, DEN has lived up to everything I envisioned since February 27, 2004. I honestly believe you guys will take DEN to even higher heights, and bring the prophecy in the WFE to life: History will record the DEN as the most notorious, well-organized and well-disciplined raider army ever to grace the battlefield."

With two active occupations in Anarchy and St Abbaddon, a regional population of well over 1000 nations, a substantial active updating force, rising leaders molded by raiding tradition and outstanding training, and countless victories against defenders, we believe that we have achieved this and more. Here's to many more years of glory.

History will record the DEN as the most notorious, well-organized, and well-disciplined raider army ever to grace the battlefield.

-- General Knot

---

Good work everyone you've all done a good job as DEN. Keep it up. However, the Most Valuable Player of our region has been Knot II and to show our appreciation for his work, he's been promoted to a full general. Hopefully he has a good symbol to add to the right side of his new flag!

Further Officer Promotions:
Gladio has been promoted from Captain to Major.
Varax has been promoted from Lieutenant to Captain.
Vaculatestar has been promoted from Sergeant to Lieutenant.

In addition to this, the Order of the Black Eagle, the highest military decoration awarded by DEN, has been bestowed upon Brigadier General 94 block and Lieutenant Tyegëa for their service in recruitment and foreign affairs, respectively.