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by Husseinarti » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:52 pm
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:1. Separate maneuver and fire, in other words have an asymmetrical (in terms of weapons and capabilities not necessarily manpower) structure. This has supposedly been demonstrated to be more effective than the opposite.
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:2. Have each squad in its own vehicle. This allows for better flexibility and maneuver and is IMO easier to manage. It should also help with better bonding with the vehicle crew - the dismounts aren't simply "baggage" to be lugged around and dropped off into battle by the vehicle crew, they are an integral part of the squad and vice-versa.
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:3. Have a uniform structure all throughout as far as units and their sub-divisions are concerned. What this means is that instead of being uniform in terms of manpower, my platoons are uniform in number of squads, and so on. This results in tiny platoons for forces using small vehicles manpower-wise, but that is considered to be an advantage in itself and part of the whole point of said type of force - having a light footprint. Generally this will mainly apply to SOF, who are considered special little snowflakes who can punch above their weight which should somewhat compensate. In other words, different types of forces aren't really uniform in manpower nor in capabilities, acknowledging the fact that each is unique and comes with its own set of advantages and disadvantages. If you find yourself needing to say, use 2 of your squads to engage one enemy squad or something similar to this situation, well, you will, however that's probably a clue you either have the wrong forces for that job or the wrong job for those forces.
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:4. Separate vehicle crews from dismounts. This will either be impossible or unwanted with certain types of units/vehicles, mainly those with a small troop capacity (especially considering #3). However, when possible, it awards greater flexibility and even firepower to the squad: as the dismounts maneuver or engage or do whatever action, the vehicle crew can actively support them (or vice versa) or even another squad by maneuvering to a different location and/or using the on-board weapons etc.
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:5. The quintessential weapon around which a squad should be formed should be a belt-fed machine gun, whether a LMG or GPMG (typically distinguished by the type of round used, intermediate vs. full size), but preferably a GPMG. Because of the way it is built, it is literally so many things in one - it can provide suppressive fire, precision fire to a greater range (marksman), area fire, and if it uses a full size round it can penetrate things the rest of the squad can't with their rifles. I would say that being belt-fed is essential because it lowers the weight of the ammunition in effect as you don't have to lug the weight of many magazines around. Many LMGs can accept both belts and mags (not simultaneously) without modifying anything, in case you run out of belted ammunition. This is IMO most effective when deployed with a rifleman/ammo bearer, who either has a heavier overall load or IMO preferably a lighter load of their own to maintain the same mobility as the gunner if not riflemen.
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:6. I would reckon the second most useful and important "support" weapon in the squad is the so-called "automatic rifle" - this is commonly an "overbuilt" assault rifle commonly with a longer barrel, sometimes called an LMG (as with the RPK) although I dislike this naming convention. It is essentially what #5 offers, scaled down into being a compromise between a MG and a rifle. Different magazines have been built of varying reliability designed to increase the ammo capacity (and thus suppressive/area fire capability) of such weapons, such as quad-stacks, drums and Beta (dual drum) mags. The automatic rifle offers a suppressive, area and precision (marksman) fire capability that is viable at fireteam level.
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:7. The third thing you should have (if you can) would probably be a dedicated grenadier wielding something like a MGL or Norinco LG6. I do not like the idea of a RPG-er at squad level as I consider that the ammo is too heavy even with an ammo bearer to justify lugging around the weight of the launcher (after you'll expend all your rockets ). The grenadier could potentially have an ammo bearer/rifleman for maximum effectiveness.
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:8. The fourth thing would probably be a DMR. The DM shouldn't use a lot of ammo so there is completely no need for an ammo bearer unlike with the rest of the support weapons.
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:9. The rest of the firepower of the squad will be provided through the UBGLs mounted to the SL's and possibly S2IC's rifles, individually issued disposable rockets, hand and/or rifle grenades, and obviously run-off-the-mill rifles.
Roski wrote:Husseinarti wrote:I like the US squad layout the best.
Squad Leader: M4 rifle
Alpha Team Leader: M4 rifle
Rifleman: M4 rifle, M136
Grenadier: M4 rifle, M203A1/M320
Automatic Rifleman: M249 LMG
Bravo Team Leader: M4 rifle
Rifleman: M4 rifle, M136
Grenadier: M4 rifle, M203A1/M320
Automatic Rifleman: M249 LMG
The Squad Leader, at his discretion or by a set SOP, can instead give the grenade launchers to the team leaders as they can then see and shoot at things that need to be dealt with without the TL having to direct them. Also, each platoon has three Javelin Command Launch Units with a bunch of the men in the platoon knowing how to operate and fire them. Three men in each platoon, one per squad, is a designated Anti-Armor Specialist. There is an issue with this since if you have all 9 of your CLUs issued out to set people, then you can't have massed ATGM defense, which may not be an issue with the HBCT squad since the company has 14 IFVs, but the IBCT or the SBCT is going to be seriously impacted with the fact that you can't mass your ATGMs unless you change up your squads.
There are also 18 12-gauge shotguns allocated to the company HQ. Which are lessons of OEF/OIF probably.
Also the US, before they transitioned to the M240/M249 would issue a single M60 to each squad, with an additional number of M60s given to the Platoon HQ to be issued where needed.
While I can't say for certain that it was common, but Colonel Hal Moore and the 1st Battalion, 7th Cav changed out their rifle companies' AT squads for additional M60s. I think one company kept their LAWs due to the lack of time in requesting and getting the equipment, but they came in handy none-the-less. That happened during his involvement in the Ia Drang, I don't remember how 2/7 or 2/5 fared, but they were laid out in a similar way.
I can be useful c:
I am assuming this would still work with the HK-416 and M27?
by Fordorsia » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:57 pm
San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.
Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad
Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.
Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.
Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.
by Kazarogkai » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:05 pm
Gallia- wrote:composition determines manpower
by DnalweN acilbupeR » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:09 pm
Husseinarti wrote:snip
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.
by DnalweN acilbupeR » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:15 pm
Fordorsia wrote:None of this would need to be discussed if you gave every infantryman a SAW
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.
by EsToVnIa » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:19 pm
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:Husseinarti wrote:snip
dude you're being so fucking annoying. idk what i've done to piss you off or whatever but you're coming off as being very condescending and acting as a know it all. you can either cut out the crap or have someone else talk to you. i understand this wouldn't be a tragedy for you, it wouldn't be for me either. i've repeatedly clarified, whether directly or indirectly (through things such as "supposedly" or "i think that") that i'm only expressing my opinions. i've never stated that i'm very knowledgeable on the subject, or even more knowledgeable than someone else here. it IS my 2 cents and nothing more and I've repeated this countless times.
now if you can't help but use the tone that you're using because you dislike someone's opinions, stated as such, that's not my problem
edit: not to mention that you're literally misconstruing like half of my arguments
by DnalweN acilbupeR » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:22 pm
Estovnia wrote:DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
dude you're being so fucking annoying. idk what i've done to piss you off or whatever but you're coming off as being very condescending and acting as a know it all. you can either cut out the crap or have someone else talk to you. i understand this wouldn't be a tragedy for you, it wouldn't be for me either. i've repeatedly clarified, whether directly or indirectly (through things such as "supposedly" or "i think that") that i'm only expressing my opinions. i've never stated that i'm very knowledgeable on the subject, or even more knowledgeable than someone else here. it IS my 2 cents and nothing more and I've repeated this countless times.
now if you can't help but use the tone that you're using because you dislike someone's opinions, stated as such, that's not my problem
edit: not to mention that you're literally misconstruing like half of my arguments
the thing is you've been around these threads long enough where you should know all this stuff
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.
by DnalweN acilbupeR » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:27 pm
Estovnia wrote:yes, let's focus on the mundane things like "he said my nomenclature fore this was retarded" rather than try to learn from it, i like it
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.
by Gallia- » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:30 pm
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:The way I see things is the following.
1. Separate maneuver and fire, in other words have an asymmetrical (in terms of weapons and capabilities not necessarily manpower) structure. This has supposedly been demonstrated to be more effective than the opposite.
2. Have each squad in its own vehicle. This allows for better flexibility and maneuver and is IMO easier to manage. It should also help with better bonding with the vehicle crew - the dismounts aren't simply "baggage" to be lugged around and dropped off into battle by the vehicle crew, they are an integral part of the squad and vice-versa.
3. Have a uniform structure all throughout as far as units and their sub-divisions are concerned. What this means is that instead of being uniform in terms of manpower, my platoons are uniform in number of squads, and so on. This results in tiny platoons for forces using small vehicles manpower-wise, but that is considered to be an advantage in itself and part of the whole point of said type of force - having a light footprint. Generally this will mainly apply to SOF, who are considered special little snowflakes who can punch above their weight which should somewhat compensate. In other words, different types of forces aren't really uniform in manpower nor in capabilities, acknowledging the fact that each is unique and comes with its own set of advantages and disadvantages. If you find yourself needing to say, use 2 of your squads to engage one enemy squad or something similar to this situation, well, you will, however that's probably a clue you either have the wrong forces for that job or the wrong job for those forces.
4. Separate vehicle crews from dismounts. This will either be impossible or unwanted with certain types of units/vehicles, mainly those with a small troop capacity (especially considering #3). However, when possible, it awards greater flexibility and even firepower to the squad: as the dismounts maneuver or engage or do whatever action, the vehicle crew can actively support them (or vice versa) or even another squad by maneuvering to a different location and/or using the on-board weapons etc.
5. The quintessential weapon around which a squad should be formed should be a belt-fed machine gun, whether a LMG or GPMG (typically distinguished by the type of round used, intermediate vs. full size), but preferably a GPMG. Because of the way it is built, it is literally so many things in one - it can provide suppressive fire, precision fire to a greater range (marksman), area fire, and if it uses a full size round it can penetrate things the rest of the squad can't with their rifles. I would say that being belt-fed is essential because it lowers the weight of the ammunition in effect as you don't have to lug the weight of many magazines around. Many LMGs can accept both belts and mags (not simultaneously) without modifying anything, in case you run out of belted ammunition. This is IMO most effective when deployed with a rifleman/ammo bearer, who either has a heavier overall load or IMO preferably a lighter load of their own to maintain the same mobility as the gunner if not riflemen.
6. I would reckon the second most useful and important "support" weapon in the squad is the so-called "automatic rifle" - this is commonly an "overbuilt" assault rifle commonly with a longer barrel, sometimes called an LMG (as with the RPK) although I dislike this naming convention. It is essentially what #5 offers, scaled down into being a compromise between a MG and a rifle. Different magazines have been built of varying reliability designed to increase the ammo capacity (and thus suppressive/area fire capability) of such weapons, such as quad-stacks, drums and Beta (dual drum) mags. The automatic rifle offers a suppressive, area and precision (marksman) fire capability that is viable at fireteam level.
7. The third thing you should have (if you can) would probably be a dedicated grenadier wielding something like a MGL or Norinco LG6. I do not like the idea of a RPG-er at squad level as I consider that the ammo is too heavy even with an ammo bearer to justify lugging around the weight of the launcher (after you'll expend all your rockets ). The grenadier could potentially have an ammo bearer/rifleman for maximum effectiveness.
8. The fourth thing would probably be a DMR. The DM shouldn't use a lot of ammo so there is completely no need for an ammo bearer unlike with the rest of the support weapons.
9. The rest of the firepower of the squad will be provided through the UBGLs mounted to the SL's and possibly S2IC's rifles, individually issued disposable rockets, hand and/or rifle grenades, and obviously run-off-the-mill rifles.
by Fordorsia » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:31 pm
San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.
Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad
Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.
Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.
Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.
by Vortukia » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:40 pm
by The Kievan People » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:50 pm
Aqizithiuda wrote:Estovnia wrote:GPC would've been the thing in the 70s/80s, not present-day
now it's CTA and PCTA like san said
PCTA ETC GPC
I think that the GPC is more of a 1940s-1970s sort of thing world wide, at which point everyone caught microcaliber fever, which continues into the present. The next adopted step is probably going to be polymer conventional cases in present calibers, eventually followed by caseless in like 50 years when they work out how to make durable, cleanly combusting polymer cases. Then we'll either see CLTA or just caseless ammunition along the conventional design. I'm hoping for the former, expecting the latter (at least until 20 years after it became viable and 2 separate disastrous programs, at which point they choose the CLTA).
by Gallia- » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:50 pm
by Fordorsia » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:51 pm
San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.
Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad
Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.
Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.
Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.
by Kazarogkai » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:55 pm
by Rhodesialund » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:29 pm
by Vortukia » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:31 pm
Silangan wrote:What are the pros and cons of using asymmetric structure in one's army organization as opposed to symmetric structure?
by Rhodesialund » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:35 pm
Vortukia wrote:So to answer your question you can't build your structure asymmetrically, you can build your military to fight a asymmetric war, which would involve making them suited to fighting a nation much bigger and stronger, or much smaller.
In my advice, go with all three. Make a balanced force to fight conventionally on a equal power, a ranger-esq variety to fight away from supplies, communication and against a larger threat, and a counter-insurgency to fight the guerrilla.
Best of luck, and if you need help writing, shoot me a telgram.
by Gallia- » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:39 pm
by Fordorsia » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:43 pm
San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.
Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad
Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.
Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.
Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.
by Gallia- » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:44 pm
by Fordorsia » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:45 pm
San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.
Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad
Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.
Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.
Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.
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