by Stellonia » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:58 pm
by The Blaatschapen » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:00 pm
by Stellonia » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:02 pm
The Blaatschapen wrote:It is against the rules. I would argue it constitutes trolling though.
by The Blaatschapen » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:04 pm
by Stellonia » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:11 pm
The Blaatschapen wrote:Stellonia wrote:I don't really see how misgendering constitutes flaming or trolling; and as far as I can tell, it is not explicitly prohibited.
viewtopic.php?p=16484706#p16484706
That's how far you can tell it.
by The Blaatschapen » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:17 pm
Stellonia wrote:
It could be argued that the terms he and she are derived from sex, as opposed to gender. Dictionary.com defines the word he as "the male person or animal being discussed or last mentioned; that male." It defines the word male as "a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man." It could be therefore argued that a person who is biologically male but identifies as female should be referred to as "he", and vice versa.
I wonder if moderation would like to take this argument into account and re-consider its rules on the matter of misgendering.
by NERVUN » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:41 pm
Stellonia wrote:
It could be argued that the terms he and she are derived from sex, as opposed to gender. Dictionary.com defines the word he as "the male person or animal being discussed or last mentioned; that male." It defines the word male as "a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man." It could be therefore argued that a person who is biologically male but identifies as female should be referred to as "he", and vice versa.
I wonder if moderation would like to take this argument into account and re-consider its rules on the matter of misgendering.
by -The West Coast- » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:43 pm
The Blaatschapen wrote:It is against the rules. I would argue it constitutes trolling though.
by USS Monitor » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:17 pm
-The West Coast- wrote:The Blaatschapen wrote:It is against the rules. I would argue it constitutes trolling though.
You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.
by Neutraligon » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:19 pm
USS Monitor wrote:-The West Coast- wrote:You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.
In practice, what usually happens is that you'll have someone that wants to use a perfectly ordinary pronoun like "she," but someone decides, "You're not really a woman!" and insists on using "he." Or vice versa, where they are called "she" when they prefer "he." Or they get called "he" or "she" when they prefer "they."
I'm not aware of anyone on NS that seriously expects to be referred to using made-up pronouns.
by USS Monitor » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:25 pm
Neutraligon wrote:USS Monitor wrote:
In practice, what usually happens is that you'll have someone that wants to use a perfectly ordinary pronoun like "she," but someone decides, "You're not really a woman!" and insists on using "he." Or vice versa, where they are called "she" when they prefer "he." Or they get called "he" or "she" when they prefer "they."
I'm not aware of anyone on NS that seriously expects to be referred to using made-up pronouns.
Except possibly when they are in character.
by The Blaatschapen » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:26 am
-The West Coast- wrote:The Blaatschapen wrote:It is against the rules. I would argue it constitutes trolling though.
You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.
by Idzequitch » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:29 am
The Blaatschapen wrote:-The West Coast- wrote:You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.
Huh?
Pony is not a gender. It's a whole different animal.
by The Archregimancy » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:00 am
The Blaatschapen wrote:Stellonia wrote:I don't really see how misgendering constitutes flaming or trolling; and as far as I can tell, it is not explicitly prohibited.
viewtopic.php?p=16484706#p16484706
That's how far you can tell it.
by Val Halla » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:10 am
The Archregimancy wrote:
Though it's important to stress that these are guidelines, not hard and fast rules.
There are circumstances under which persistent misgendering may be considered actionable as trolling, and we've tried to set out guidelines over how to judge this often difficult issue; but misgendering isn't inherently actionable.
by The Archregimancy » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:26 am
Val Halla wrote:The Archregimancy wrote:
Though it's important to stress that these are guidelines, not hard and fast rules.
There are circumstances under which persistent misgendering may be considered actionable as trolling, and we've tried to set out guidelines over how to judge this often difficult issue; but misgendering isn't inherently actionable.
I guess it would be entirely unfair if it was an accident, but if someone kept doing it deliberately, it crosses the line then? (In most cases)
by Parliamentary Republic 4077 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:45 am
by Elke and Elba » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:18 am
Parliamentary Republic 4077 wrote:I do believe that this issue of mis-gendering is quite trivial. If a player calls himself a man, then refer to him in accordance with his presented sex. The same holds for a woman. This near automatic action should remove the need for such a rule. In the case a player gives himself a different pronoun from he or she, the respondent is at liberty. He should not be expected to go to any unconventional or extraordinary effort to accommodate that player. Moreover, a player shouldn't be so quick to take offence. In the grander scheme of the correspondence what pronouns the player uses are trivial to the content of his message.
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by Gregoryisgodistan » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:41 am
by The Serbian Empire » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:07 am
Gregoryisgodistan wrote:It's worth noting I have on multiple occasions referred to Valanora as a "he", both here and on irc, because I keep forgetting she's a (cisgender) woman, and have been repeatedly corrected. Yet I keep forgetting. Whenever someone corrects me, I apologize. Now, maybe I should do a better job at remembering, but I interact with hundreds of NS users, none of whom I have ever met, and it's hard for me to remember all their genders, even after having been told.
If it's something like that, whether they're transgender or cisgender, it's not actionable, or at least that's my understanding. Valanora could be a transwoman for all I know. I doubt it, since she's never indicated that, but either way, I should refer to her as "she." And either way, if I forget and call her "he" once in a while, and then correct myself when called out on my honest mistake, it's not actionable. Or at least that's my understanding.
In other words, if a cisgender individual of the same gender would be unoffended and recognize it as an honest mistake, it's not actionable even if they happen to be transgender. Or at least it shouldn't be.
Being a transgender male/female shouldn't entitle you to any "extra" protections against being misgendered, only the same ones afforded to cisgender individuals of your identified gender. No more, no less. And my understanding is that's how it works here.
by Wallenburg » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:13 am
Gregoryisgodistan wrote:It's worth noting I have on multiple occasions referred to Valanora as a "he", both here and on irc, because I keep forgetting she's a (cisgender) woman, and have been repeatedly corrected. Yet I keep forgetting. Whenever someone corrects me, I apologize. Now, maybe I should do a better job at remembering, but I interact with hundreds of NS users, none of whom I have ever met, and it's hard for me to remember all their genders, even after having been told.
If it's something like that, whether they're transgender or cisgender, it's not actionable, or at least that's my understanding. Valanora could be a transwoman for all I know. I doubt it, since she's never indicated that, but either way, I should refer to her as "she." And either way, if I forget and call her "he" once in a while, and then correct myself when called out on my honest mistake, it's not actionable. Or at least that's my understanding.
In other words, if a cisgender individual of the same gender would be unoffended and recognize it as an honest mistake, it's not actionable even if they happen to be transgender. Or at least it shouldn't be.
Being a transgender male/female shouldn't entitle you to any "extra" protections against being misgendered, only the same ones afforded to cisgender individuals of your identified gender. No more, no less. And my understanding is that's how it works here.
by Cerillium » Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:13 pm
The Blaatschapen wrote:-The West Coast- wrote:You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.
Huh?
Pony is not a gender. It's a whole different animal.
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by Wallenburg » Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:20 pm
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:42 pm
-The West Coast- wrote:The Blaatschapen wrote:It is against the rules. I would argue it constitutes trolling though.
You can't expect every player to call people what they want to be called every time. He or she are the common and most accepted terms, so I really think opening up the ability to warn players for not calling another player "pony/ponyess/poniest " etc. in regards to their person is not a good thing at all, and creates major issues with people (like myself) who are against that sort of thing.
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