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[Change #4] Annex

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Mallorea and Riva
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Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:19 pm

In my personal experience a more limited ban list would just encourage region flooding, nothing more.
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NOrTh pAcIfiC spY
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby NOrTh pAcIfiC spY » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:26 pm

EDIT: IGNORE THIS - SUMMARISED IN LATER POST


More thoughts - explicitly answering four in Mouses recent post in the subforum.

How will your suggested change impact tag raiding?

Suggested change will not impact, or will increase the availability of WA's, meaning potentially more tag raids could occur. The change would also increase the supply of Fenda WA's, but no where near to the same extent. Annexed regions wouldn't be refounded, so would increase the supply of regions to tag raid.

How will it impact long-term holds and attempts at refounds?

Impact long-term holds - it would encourage long-term holds, and would allow Imperialist Regions etc. to take the region, without destroying it. Refounds, it would go a number of different ways. There could be more refounds, due to the greater number of WA nations free to capture regions. Refounding would still be the only way to properly protect a region from liberations etc. but hopefully the annex proposal would reduce the number of refounds.

How will it impact subterfuge and intelligence gathering?

With natives always able to see the password (not too sure about this), deep sleepers in regions deemed at risk would be able to gather intelligence and passwords, so that liberation's could take place, and the region could gain Independence. That may promote having inactive puppets in a region, clogging up space and update time, although that already seems to be the case. Intelligence gathering - there would be a list like the embassies list, but of annexations, that would allow other regions to quickly view another regions holdings. Natives in a annexed region would always be able to see the password (I'm still not 100% sure about this, doesn't feel right natives not being able to see the password, but doesn't feel right about them always being able to see it as well - potentially have a far, far higher cost of invisible password, need to explore this later) which would increase the ability of other regions to intelligence gather, from the normal 'send delegate TG for access to region, share password, conquer' type intelligence at the present time.

How will it impact the non-R/D player that just wants to enjoy their (foundered) region?

It will impact the non-R/D player who wants to enjoy their region in a variety of ways. If they are hostile towards the invasion, there would be a thing on the WFE about it being annexed by Region B, and the WA Delegate/Governor position would have a nation they would not support. If they were happy with the region, it would reduce their own opportunities for delegacy due to the Governor having the power. It could also increase the amount of regions conquered with a larger level of WA nations free. On the other hand, they would have a presumably active Governor (Governor wants to keep control of region, and only practical way to do it is to keep natives happy for native endorsements, so the home region doesn't have to devote WA's to the region). The region would survive, at least for the short term, so they won't wake up one morning, and find their community destroyed, and their region refounded as a trophy.

How will it impact players whose Home Region updates early or updates late?

I'm not sure if this is applicable - more WA's I guess in circulation.

How will it impact mid-update recruitment efforts by either side to get more WA nations for their target?

I'm not sure if this is applicable - more WA's I guess in circulation.

How will it impact the CTE rate of regional founders?

Will probably not significantly impact the CTE rate of regional founders. Founders may be cautious of CTEing for the worry of losing their region, but probably would not change anything significantly. With more WA's in circulation (as in they won't be tied down holding the delegacy of some strange region), there would likely be larger scale WA raids and liberations, meaning that regional militaries would become more active. If the R/D game becomes more active, a larger population of natives, raiders, defenders, imperialists etc. would become more active, and a more active game means more active founders. Founder CTE's usually happen before annexations, so this won't impact directly.

How will it impact Security Council activity?

Security Council - Given the annexed regions WA delegate votes would be passed on to the annexing regions WA delegate, Imperialist and other military WA factions would have a greater say on Security Council Resolutions. Also, there may be more Security Council Resolutions Types to repeal annexations etc. but that is a different thread.
Last edited by NOrTh pAcIfiC spY on Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mousebumples
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Mousebumples » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:41 am

North Pacific Spy wrote:With natives always able to see the password (not too sure about this), deep sleepers in regions deemed at risk would be able to gather intelligence and passwords, so that liberation's could take place, and the region could gain Independence. That may promote having inactive puppets in a region, clogging up space and update time, although that already seems to be the case. Intelligence gathering - there would be a list like the embassies list, but of annexations, that would allow other regions to quickly view another regions holdings. Natives in a annexed region would always be able to see the password (I'm still not 100% sure about this, doesn't feel right natives not being able to see the password, but doesn't feel right about them always being able to see it as well - potentially have a far, far higher cost of invisible password, need to explore this later) which would increase the ability of other regions to intelligence gather, from the normal 'send delegate TG for access to region, share password, conquer' type intelligence at the present time.

For the record, passwords are not always visible to natives. Hidden passwords are possible, but they cost a lot more influence than visible (to the nations in the region) passwords. Hidden passwords (preferably caused by keyboard smashing so the WAD doesn't even know what the password is) are generally preferable when it comes to organizing a refound - no matter which side you're on.

North Pacific Spy wrote:How will it impact the non-R/D player that just wants to enjoy their (foundered) region?

It will impact the non-R/D player who wants to enjoy their region in a variety of ways. If they are hostile towards the invasion, there would be a thing on the WFE about it being annexed by Region B, and the WA Delegate/Governor position would have a nation they would not support. If they were happy with the region, it would reduce their own opportunities for delegacy due to the Governor having the power. It could also increase the amount of regions conquered with a larger level of WA nations free. On the other hand, they would have a presumably active Governor (Governor wants to keep control of region, and only practical way to do it is to keep natives happy for native endorsements, so the home region doesn't have to devote WA's to the region). The region would survive, at least for the short term, so they won't wake up one morning, and find their community destroyed, and their region refounded as a trophy.

I don't think you really understood what I was getting at here - although how you looked at the perspective of the natives is probably something I need to add to my list. :blush: I was more talking about how would your annex idea (in this case) be used by a region of players that is not being raided and is not involved in R/D at all. There are probably thousands of regions that have a founder (so they generally can't be subjected to long-term raids unless their founder is REEEEEALLY inactive) and that don't raid or defend. They might be focused on RP or Issues or World Assembly legislation or NSG or ... any other thing.

How would/could annexation be used by non-R/D groups? Could they "annex" a friendly region that has perhaps gone founderless for their protection? How would that impact the safety/protection of the vulnerable region? Why would your version of annex replace the WAD for the Annexed region with the one for the Annexing region? That was not mentioned in the original post by Sedge and seems like a fairly significant change. Additionally, he has a bunch of questions there that I don't think were covered by your idea post. (Speaking of which, I would appreciate a lot more detail and description in that post since it honestly doesn't seem to be especially organized or clear and seems to be more stream-of-consciousness description that can be difficult to sift through exactly what you mean.)
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NOrTh pAcIfiC spY
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Proposal WIP

Postby NOrTh pAcIfiC spY » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:32 am

North Pacific Spy's Annexation Proposal

Updated version further down - ignore this[b]

This change would allow a region to formally "annex" another. This would work in much the same way as embassies, but would be displayed differently on the region page.

[b]The intention of this change is to:

Give an outcome to an invasion that raiders can aim for.
Give in-game recognition to the control that some regions exert over others.
Prevent regions from being destroyed in the process of an invasion.
Allow a possible alternative to a refound.
Allow regions to remain in play.
Allow larger raids and WA conflicts to occur.
Allow natives to gain independence, and become involved in the R/D game.
Remove barriers to the R/D game.

Any region could annex another, or be annexed by another region
This includes founded regions, founderless regions, regions with or without WA delegates (although there would need to be a WA delegate for the annexation process, but there would not need to be a WA delegate to keep a region annexed)


How long it takes to annex a region, and to "de-annex" it.
It would take approximately one week (14 updates) to either annex a region, or for an annexed region to gain independence from the annexing region. This is to make annexations difficult but not difficult enough to make refounding a better option. This is all up for discussion, nothing is set in stone for both my proposal, and the annexation change in general.

What influence cost there is for annexation.
The influence cost of an annexation would either be non-existent or very little. The main barrier to an annexation would be time, rather than influence. This is because influence can not always be a proper representation of the control of a region.

How an annexation is displayed on the region page both for the annexing and the annexed region.

For the colonising/annexing region
The regions annexed or colonised by the Imperialist region would be displayed on the region page, below the WFE, between the embassy list and the tag list. The regions annexed would be shown exactly like the embassies, with a list of embassies, with the order changeable on the regional control page.

Regions being colonised/annexed and regions gaining independence would be shown similarly to embassy openings/closures.

The reason for this would be firstly because of Sedge's original post, and secondly because this is an already refined system created by embassies. Annexations will copy many different aspects of embassies because embassies are intuitive.

Image


(I couldn't change split the embassy closures and Independences into separate boxes, nor the embassy openings and annexations/colonisations. The wording is more of a place holder rather than having any semblance of being a final copy.)

For the colonised/annexed region
At the top of the WFE in non-removable (unless the region is un-annexed) large (red?) writing, 'This region has been annexed by [insert Imperialist region here], who have assigned [insert nation here] as the Governor of [insert annexed region here]

There would also be when applicable the annexing or unannexing countdown on the annexed region - similar to embassies, see above picture.

Whether a specific page should be introduced to record in-game "empires".
On the http://www.nationstates.net/page=list_regions page, underneath the Banner Title Regions, there are different options for sorting regions. By WC report, by population and by name. An optional idea (nice to have) would be to allow another 3 ranking systems (or one ranking with three subranking options), depending on the importance of the annexing in the future.
The first would be a ranking, where those with the greatest number of colonies would be ranked first (quantity over quality).
The second would be a ranking, where those with the greatest number of individual nations in the colonies as a total would be ranked first (a mixture - could be biased with massive puppet regions e.g. Nugut).
The third would be a ranking, where those with the greatest number of WA nations in the colonies as a total would be ranked first (quality)
The reason for having this is mainly for prestige, to give some kind of prestige to larger empires, and to show which regions are not. Despite the three different rankings, the rankings would still likely not show the true power of a region, because a regions power is more than just the regions and WA's they control, diplomatic alliances between empires would not be shown (because there is little way to measure them with GP mechanics).

How to annex a region
There are two ways to annex a region. Both require a puppet nation/nation that the annexing region is satisfied with keeping indefinitely in place (for the length of annexation, could be for a week or two, or for years), and that nation as the WA delegate for the period of time needed to annex the region. This is because if a nation is being appointed a Governor of a region, they must be able to control a region for a week (or however long the annexation period is), otherwise they are unlikely unfit for the position. Also, this would provide a tangible way of preventing an annexation, and a tangible way to protect an annexation.

Option 1: Executive WA option
To annex a region using the Executive WA delegate controls, the puppet which the annexing region (say region A) wants to place as governor must be promoted to the WA delegate of the region (say region B). Then in the regional controls, (same sort of process as requesting an embassy, except with an annexation option), the WA delegate (of region B) requests to surrender sovereignty to the region (A) the WA delegate wishes to be annexed by (potentially costing an amount of influence). The Founder of the region (A) (or the WA delegate if executive) may accept the regions (B) sovereignty, which would immediately start the annexation process.

Option 2: Founder option
The only difference with the founder option and the Executive WA delegate option, is that the founder requests to surrender sovereignty (not using any influence). There still has to be a WA delegate who would become the governor, and everything else is the same as option 1.

Process of annexation
When the process of annexation is started, there would be a message on both regions page (like the embassy closure or opening notices) with a countdown (6 days, 23 hours etc.) until the region is annexed. In this time, there are multiple ways of preventing the annexation from going through. Both Founders of both the region annexing and the region being annexed can cancel the process of annexation at any time. Both WA delegates (if executive) can also cancel the process of annexation at any time. Where the process of annexation differs from the process of creating an embassy, is the annexed regions WA delegate. Because the annexed regions WA delegate is going to become governor, and the nation immobile, if the WA delegate in the region that is attempting to be annexed is displaced from delegacy, even for a single update, the annexation is cancelled, and the entire process reset (without an refund on influence). The process takes 7 days or 14 updates.

Successful annexation
If a region is successfully annexed, a variety of things happen. Firstly, the WA delegate throughout the annexation process becomes the Governor of the annexed region. This means a variety of things. A regional history event occurs on both regions pages. This is because it is a significant event in both regions timeline. A tag appears on the top of the annexed regions page stating it has been annexed, and the region is added to the list of annexed regions of the annexing region. This is to show that a region has been annexed, rather than having it a secret.

Governor
The Governor of a region is an immobile nation that retains many of the benefits of being in the WA, without being having to be a member of the WA, allowing the Governor to have a different WA nation, in or outside of the region, without having to sacrifice control of the region. The Governor nation is immobile, as in it cannot move regions, cannot accept recruitment telegrams, cannot be ejected, or otherwise leave the region without first losing Governor status (barring CTE's and Moderator Intervention). The Governor nation can become the WA delegate of the region, gain and retain endorsements, and earn influence, all without being part of the WA.

The Governor nation can either be in or out of the World Assembly. Being inside of the World Assembly gives the normal influence income rate, while not being part of the WA gives half the normal influence income rate. Also, the Governor nation being a member of the WA allows the Governor nation to endorse other nations, vote on WA resolutions (individual votes, region votes are transferred) and to propose resolutions.

For the time that the Governor nation is Governor of the region, it cannot be ejected, banned, or be otherwise kicked from the region, barring CTE's or moderator intervention.

WA voting
An advantage of annexing an region is that all endorsements, which would normally provide the WA delegate with extra voting power, is transferred to the annexing region's WA delegate, whether or not the Governor is WA or not, or is in power. As long as the region is annexed, all endorsements the (WA Delegate or Governor, not sure which) which would normally switch to WA voting power if the region was not annexed and the nation was the WA Delegate of the region is instead transferred to the annexing region's WA delegate. If the annexing region does not a WA delegate these votes are instead lost.

Governor loss of WA delegate status
If another nation replaces the Governor nation as WA delegate, the Governor nation has 7 days to recover delegacy before the Governor automatically loses Governor status, and the region is unannexed. The only way to cancel this is to return the Governor to delegacy, which cancels the countdown. If a the Governor nation has zero endorsements, yet there are no other nations in the region with an endorsement, the Governor remains in the position of WA delegate, with all powers. The Governor would gain influence at half the rate a normal puppet nation in a region would, or if WA, would gain influence at a normal WA without endorsement rate.

Declaring Independence
The Founder of the annexed region can declare independence from the region that annexed them. This will start a 7 day countdown which unless the founder decides to cancel the independence, cannot be prevented by any other party. At the end of the 7 days, the annexation process will be reversed, the two regions will be independent from one another, and the Governor will become a normal nation again.

Resigning from Governorship
The Governor of the annexed region can resign from their post as governor. This will start a 7 day countdown which unless the Governor decides to cancel the resignation, cannot be prevented by any other party. At the end of the 7 days, the annexation process will be reversed, the two regions will be independent from one another, and the Governor will become a normal nation again.

Granting Independence
The annexing region can grant the annexed region independence. The WA delegate (executive) or Founder will have to start the process of giving the colonised region independence This will start a 7 day countdown which unless the Founder or executive WA delegate decides to cancel the resignation, cannot be prevented by any other party. At the end of the 7 days, the annexation process will be reversed, the two regions will be independent from one another, and the Governor will become a normal nation again.



Clock Skill
The fourteen update time to either annex or unannex a region is an attempt to promote control over a region, politically and physically, rather than have a team of updaters quickly be able to change the regions status. To keep a region, realistically, the annexing region must either devote precious WA's to keep the region, which is not an ideal situation, or the annexing region can take political control of the region and rely on native endorsements to keep control of the region. The length of time required for a annexation allows a window for nations that are not available at update to have an opportunity to participate.

Regional Password
An annexed region's password would be visible to all WA (or all WA and non WA, leaning towards WA only nations) nations in the region. This is to allow a region the ability to fight back rather than having an endgame when the delegate puts on a hidden password onto a region, slowly choking it to death.

R/D/N relationships
After a region is annexed, the annexing region can either have a positive or negative relationship with the annexed region.

If the annexing region has a positive relationship with the annexed region, the native population would support the Governor nation with endorsements, resulting in the freedom of WA nations for the annexing region which annexed the region. The annexing region would become the defender of the region in R/D terms, with a friendly native population, and would provide protection from other regions wanting to expand their own empires or destroy the annexing regions empire.

If the annexing region has a negative relationship with the annexed region, the native population would not support the Governor nation with endorsements, resulting in the lack of freedom of WA nations for the annexing region which annexed the region. The annexing region would become the invader of the region in R/D terms, with a hostile native population. This would make password defences of the region ineffective - due to natives knowing the password and leaking it to other defender (in this context regions either wanting to liberate the region, take it for their own, or destroy the annexing empire) organisations so they can organise liberations. This would also mean the region would quickly become a drain on limited WA's, and the annexing empire can make a decision, to either hold the region with an iron grip, and keep the Governor nation WA, in the hope to gather enough influence for a refound, decide to attempt to repair relations with the native population, or admit defeat and withdraw before being pushed out by successful liberations.

Natives would hold more power in this proposal, and would be able to decide whether the annexation was temporary, or permanent, and whether the annexation becomes a good thing (effortless control with many WA votes transferred to the annexing regions WA delegate) or a bad thing (pulling WA's from the rest of the Empire)

How would regions not interested in the R/D proposal use the Annexation Proposal
There is a variety of different ways regions that are not interested in R/D can use the annexation proposal (although it was intended predominately for imperialist regions)

WA votes
Annexation allows the ability for a region to pledge its delegate WA votes to another region. By being annexed, the WA delegate slot (filled by Governor)'s votes are transferred to the annexing region.

Region collectors
Region collectors would have a simple way of listing their collections, rather than having to clog up the list of legitimate diplomatic embassies with the regions that they control.

Communication
Much like an embassy, members on the annexing region may post on the annexed region's RMB at any time, and would be unable to be disabled by the governor of the region/ WA delegate. The founder would have the option to disable postings on the RMB from the annexing region.

Other annexed regions would be able to post on annexed regions RMB in the same Empire if allowed by the Governor/WA delegate or founder of the annexed region. E.g. Region A annexes both Region B and Region C. Region B could allow Region C the ability to post on their RMB without opening an embassy.

This would promote RMB activity, and while spam might be a risk from a nation inside the annexing region, the Empire should have a strong enough hold on their home region to prevent this.

Passwords
Regions that have been annexed can be passworded, but the password would be visible to either all nations in the region, or all WA nations in a region. This is to prevent another region conquering the region, annexing it, and slowly strangling the region by passwording it. The visibility of the password to natives of the region means that the Governor has to get along with the natives to password the region, otherwise native nations will leak the password to other organisations, which would stage a liberation. To prevent this caveat from making it more desirable to kick all and refound the region, I suggest (unpopular opinion, brace)...

Increasing the influence cost of a hidden password dramatically.


Protection
Provides an unejectable potential delegate for 7 days. Also gives a warning to the allied regions (like when an embassy is destroyed, but a stealth raid doesn't need to close embassies, but if the delegacy changes, the countdown is started until the region is unannexed unless the governor returns to delegacy. Also allows an extra WA for regions that allow themselves to be annexed, because the nation that would originally be WA for the delegate can resign from the WA and endorse their puppet.

RP regions
Some regions I've seen have split Role Play onto the RMB, and have found it difficult to write OCC and IC without clogging up the RMB. Annexing a region would allow RP puppets to use the RMB on the annexed region, while keeping the annexing region clear for OCC regions.

Puppet Storages
Annexing would provide a proper link to Puppet Storages for specific regions, with the home region.


How will it impact the CTE rate of regional founders
Probably will not significantly impact the CTE rate of regional founders. Founders of empires might be less likely to CTE, but otherwise this proposal would not really address this issue.

Impacts on Tag Raiding
This proposal would have little impact on the mechanics of tag raiding, except for increasing the number of WA's around, meaning more raiders, more defending WA native endorsements, and potentially more defenders.

Impacts on Long-Term holds and refounding
Hopefully provide a viable alternative to refounding. Despite the higher risk involved than a refound, Annexations are meant to provide different benefits. Annexations should allow long-term holds and community building to become more common.

Copied over from earlier post - reformatting and wording.
How will it impact long-term holds and attempts at refounds?

Impact long-term holds - it would encourage long-term holds, and would allow Imperialist Regions etc. to take the region, without destroying it. Refounds, it would go a number of different ways. There could be more refounds, due to the greater number of WA nations free to capture regions. Refounding would still be the only way to properly protect a region from liberations etc. but hopefully the annex proposal would reduce the number of refounds.

How will it impact subterfuge and intelligence gathering?

With natives always able to see the password (not too sure about this), deep sleepers in regions deemed at risk would be able to gather intelligence and passwords, so that liberation's could take place, and the region could gain Independence. That may promote having inactive puppets in a region, clogging up space and update time, although that already seems to be the case. Intelligence gathering - there would be a list like the embassies list, but of annexations, that would allow other regions to quickly view another regions holdings. Natives in a annexed region would always be able to see the password (I'm still not 100% sure about this, doesn't feel right natives not being able to see the password, but doesn't feel right about them always being able to see it as well - potentially have a far, far higher cost of invisible password, need to explore this later) which would increase the ability of other regions to intelligence gather, from the normal 'send delegate TG for access to region, share password, conquer' type intelligence at the present time.

How will it impact the non-R/D player that just wants to enjoy their (foundered) region?

It will impact the non-R/D player who wants to enjoy their region in a variety of ways. If they are hostile towards the invasion, there would be a thing on the WFE about it being annexed by Region B, and the WA Delegate/Governor position would have a nation they would not support. If they were happy with the region, it would reduce their own opportunities for delegacy due to the Governor having the power. It could also increase the amount of regions conquered with a larger level of WA nations free. On the other hand, they would have a presumably active Governor (Governor wants to keep control of region, and only practical way to do it is to keep natives happy for native endorsements, so the home region doesn't have to devote WA's to the region). The region would survive, at least for the short term, so they won't wake up one morning, and find their community destroyed, and their region refounded as a trophy.

How will it impact players whose Home Region updates early or updates late?

I'm not sure if this is applicable - more WA's I guess in circulation.

How will it impact mid-update recruitment efforts by either side to get more WA nations for their target?

I'm not sure if this is applicable - more WA's I guess in circulation.

How will it impact the CTE rate of regional founders?

Will probably not significantly impact the CTE rate of regional founders. Founders may be cautious of CTEing for the worry of losing their region, but probably would not change anything significantly. With more WA's in circulation (as in they won't be tied down holding the delegacy of some strange region), there would likely be larger scale WA raids and liberations, meaning that regional militaries would become more active. If the R/D game becomes more active, a larger population of natives, raiders, defenders, imperialists etc. would become more active, and a more active game means more active founders. Founder CTE's usually happen before annexations, so this won't impact directly.


Potential Security Council Impacts
This proposal impacts Security Council in two separate ways. Firstly, the WA votes passed from the Annexed Region to to the Annexing Regions WA Delegate means that regions with Empires have a greater effect on resolution approvals and greater WA voting power.

Also annexations open up whole new possibilities for SC resolutions. A normal liberation proposal removes the password from a region. In an annexed region, natives can already see the password, but depending on the motives of the proposers of resolutions, liberation proposals would still be able to circumnavigate a password to protect a region, and leave it wide open.

There is also potential for multiple new SC Resolutions but given my lack of faith in the SC's use of the power, I'll let someone else suggest some in a different thread - but the interaction of new SC Resolutions could potentially cause problems with annexation proposal.

RO compatibility
With the recent (as of this edit) RO addition to gameplay, I cannot properly predict what the impacts of this would have on my annexation idea. I think because Governors would occupy the WA delegate position and power that Governors should be executive officers (in regards to RO's etc.) unless another nation retakes the delegate spot. If the Governor replaces the other nation in delegate spot (either by the Governor gaining more endorsements, or by the other nation losing them) they should be returned to executive officer position.

Sedge's Annexation vs. NPS's Annexation
With the previous annexation proposal by Sedge, as stated by a variety of other posters on this thread, currently a glorified embassy and prestige thing, although useful, does not promote keeping the community, but instead promotes kicking the entire region, and in the process destroying whatever community that previously existed to annex. The previous annexation proposal does not really change the current necessity to destroy a region to control it, because most regions are unwilling to devote WA's to hold a region indefinitely, making a refound the only viable option.The aim of this proposal is to provide an alternative to destroying the region, while keeping the majority of Sedge's good ideas.

Multiple level annexations
Regions that have been annexed cannot annex other regions. Regions that have annexed other regions cannot be annexed until all colonies have been freed. Colonies don't transfer, because if one region has created an empire, another region stealing the original empires home region does not deserve to gain the entire empire, and instead should earn the place.

One of the many edits: I'm not too sure now that they shouldn't be possible. The who does it hurt thing comes to mind.

More questions/comments:
Not quite sure about influence cost of an annexation
Not too sure where Governor nations CTEing would fit into this.
Not sure if the Governor nation resigns from the WA the endorsements would reset or not.
Not sure if the transferred WA resolution voting power should be gauged from the current WA delegate of the region or the governor of the region.
Sorry about the past presentation - more of jotting down ideas rather than actually presenting them - probably might leave this post and make a second tomorrow.
Passwords - I was aware of the ability to do hidden passwords (generally, not such the influence costs of passwords etc.) - allowing natives to see the password is what I was meaning in the last post.
Not sure about the Granting Independence - trolls seizing delegacy as preventing the independence on the last day, and cancelling the process of Granting independence, restarting the countdown.
Used many different ideas from the rest of the thread - haven't provided credit, if people want, I could, but it'll take a while.
WA delegate votes - not sure whether the annexation proposal would allow the annexing region to give multiple approvals for a proposal. Pro's and cons for both ways.
RO's - need some more work on how it would interact with them.
Ignore my messages before this, I think I have copied over the gist onto this post.
Annexed regions posting on other annexed regions RMB's?
This proposal needs far more feedback - and improvement.
Last edited by NOrTh pAcIfiC spY on Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:39 pm, edited 12 times in total.

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King Nephmir II
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Postby King Nephmir II » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:50 pm

I see a lot of "it should be like this" in that post without explaining why it should be so. I mean, I get that it's a proposal, but still: why should it take 14 updates to annex, as opposed to 2, or 8, or 12? Also an "update's worth of influence" varies depending on how many endorsements you have.
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NOrTh pAcIfiC spY
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Postby NOrTh pAcIfiC spY » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:34 pm

King Nephmir II wrote:I see a lot of "it should be like this" in that post without explaining why it should be so. I mean, I get that it's a proposal, but still: why should it take 14 updates to annex, as opposed to 2, or 8, or 12? Also an "update's worth of influence" varies depending on how many endorsements you have.

Good points - I've figured out the influence thing does not really matter, because if they have to remain WA delegate for the period of time - I'll edit out.

14 updates - was thinking that because over a week usually seems like too much of a struggle to be worth it, while less than a week may make it far too easy. I'm thinking of annexations as hard to get, easy to lose with a hostile native population, hard to lose with a friendly native population. It's not set fully in stone (nothing is really, except the WA thing - which is really what makes this proposal different). What sort of time frame would you envision for an annexation?

I'm busy rewriting the entire thing from just an idea drop, to a coherent proposal, query me if my explanations are to sparse/non-existent for specific things.

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NOrTh pAcIfiC spY
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Postby NOrTh pAcIfiC spY » Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:58 am

What should the R/D world be in the future of NationStates?

I'm envisioning a world where refounds are rare, thought of as highly destructive and discouraged, and only attempted once in a blue moon.

There would be many different Empires spanning Nationstates, each with their own annexed regions or colonies, and alliances.

Invaders would invade regions, and attempt to annex them, with raider non-updaters providing support, while defender updaters, and non-updaters would attempt to prevent annexations, and to shore up vulnerable regions.

Imperialist regions would make great alliances with other regions, to provide mutual protections for colonies. Other Imperialistic regions would make other alliances, and attempt to take other regions for themselves. Idealistic Empires (such as the famous Fascist-Communist conflicts) would battle each other across multiple regions, hitting each other in different places testing weaknesses, and when one Empire pulls WA's out of one place to reinforce from a different attack, the other Empire strikes that region, forcing the other Empire to choose between losing one region, or a different one, or attempt to save them all, but potentially spreading themselves to thin.

Regions that are more focused on WA affairs maintain armies to keep their Empires, and the precious WA delegate votes it would bring. GCRs and other major Founderless regions can choose whether to attempt to maintain an empire, which may open their own region to attack and annexations, or decide to hide within their own region, and slowly become irrelevant in the greater NS world.

I believe annexations should be made far more desirable than refounds, because it makes for far more dynamic gameplay, and keeps the R/D game fresh. A refounded passworded region with one nation isn't vulnerable to attack, but an annexed nation with a group of nations inside is. An annexed passworded region and an refounded region with non-executive delegacy, or an refounded region with a password, both with one nation inside, do not provide many differences from one another.

Sorry for the double post, didn't feel this belonged in the edits of my main post.

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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:29 am

North Pacific Spy wrote:Regions that are more focused on WA affairs maintain armies to keep their Empires, and the precious WA delegate votes it would bring. GCRs and other major Founderless regions can choose whether to attempt to maintain an empire, which may open their own region to attack and annexations, or decide to hide within their own region, and slowly become irrelevant in the greater NS world.

So everybody who wants to do more in Nationstates than just answer issues or chat about RL in NSG would, effectively, be forced to engage in your style of gameplay even if that then left them with no time available for the aspects of NS that they actually enjoy?
That's a really foul idea: Opposed.
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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:40 am

1. People are already forced into Gameplay the minute they create a region. They are forced into R/D the second they lose their founder.

2. Regions with founders are not at risk for getting invaded any way, so they can still chit chat all they wish. Annexation, as they said, would only largely affect founderless regions or WA-oriented ones, the former the game already affects greatly and the latter would be a natural consequence if they wanted to gain or maintain relevance in the World Assembly. Which is already largely (and stagnantly) dominated by a handful of regions already.

3. Your opposition is meaningless as you don't really decide what ends up getting implemented in the long run. What did you think this was? A democracy?
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NOrTh pAcIfiC spY
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Postby NOrTh pAcIfiC spY » Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:54 am

Bears Armed wrote:
North Pacific Spy wrote:Regions that are more focused on WA affairs maintain armies to keep their Empires, and the precious WA delegate votes it would bring. GCRs and other major Founderless regions can choose whether to attempt to maintain an empire, which may open their own region to attack and annexations, or decide to hide within their own region, and slowly become irrelevant in the greater NS world.

So everybody who wants to do more in Nationstates than just answer issues or chat about RL in NSG would, effectively, be forced to engage in your style of gameplay even if that then left them with no time available for the aspects of NS that they actually enjoy?
That's a really foul idea: Opposed.

Not at all, sorry that came across that way. Roleplayers are probably the largest (not counting those who 'just answer issues or chat about RL in NSG') segment of the Nationstates population, and they are usually in regions that have active founders and would not be impacted at all with this proposal. Those in founderless regions are already targets, and on occasion have their region destroyed and refounded. This is meant to allow the region and community to survive instead of being refounded.

The WA Proposals Community (Not really sure what to call it) etc. would be moderately impacted, but this would likely increase, not decrease the amount of politics that the World Assembly thrives on, with different vote trading etc. for proposals, just like vote stacking currently. This would only change around the delegate WA votes.

Most importantly though, I didn't realise you could write colours on the forum. Thanks for educating me (even if it was a little hostile towards my idea)

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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:58 am

Valrifell wrote:2. Regions with founders are not at risk for getting invaded any way, so they can still chit chat all they wish. Annexation, as they said, would only largely affect founderless regions or WA-oriented ones, the former the game already affects greatly and the latter would be a natural consequence if they wanted to gain or maintain relevance in the World Assembly.

In case you hadn't already noticed my own main involvement in NS is through a WA-oriented region -- although one whose current 'relevance' in the GA probably comes at least as much from our members' work on resolutions as it does from our delegate's usual number of votes -- and I am fairly certain that I am speaking for most of that region's other long-term members too when I say that we don't want to have to get involved in empire-building ourselves in order to maintain our 'relevance' in the face of other regions that use empire-building as a way of accumulating larger votes in the GA.
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(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
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NOrTh pAcIfiC spY
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Postby NOrTh pAcIfiC spY » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:00 am

Valrifell wrote:1. People are already forced into Gameplay the minute they create a region. They are forced into R/D the second they lose their founder.

2. Regions with founders are not at risk for getting invaded any way, so they can still chit chat all they wish. Annexation, as they said, would only largely affect founderless regions or WA-oriented ones, the former the game already affects greatly and the latter would be a natural consequence if they wanted to gain or maintain relevance in the World Assembly. Which is already largely (and stagnantly) dominated by a handful of regions already.

3. Your opposition is meaningless as you don't really decide what ends up getting implemented in the long run. What did you think this was? A democracy?

I agree with you whole heartedly (foundered regions could be annexed, to transfer WA votes, but I'm predicting that it would be a minority of regions that use the feature to annex one foundered region, so that one region can pledge its WA votes.) The opposition thing - every bit of feedback counts, I might not like it, but I prefer negative feedback to none. Heh, Democratic Regions are for the week :p

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NOrTh pAcIfiC spY
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Postby NOrTh pAcIfiC spY » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:04 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Valrifell wrote:2. Regions with founders are not at risk for getting invaded any way, so they can still chit chat all they wish. Annexation, as they said, would only largely affect founderless regions or WA-oriented ones, the former the game already affects greatly and the latter would be a natural consequence if they wanted to gain or maintain relevance in the World Assembly.

In case you hadn't already noticed my own main involvement in NS is through a WA-oriented region -- although one whose current 'relevance' in the GA probably comes at least as much from our members' work on resolutions as it does from our delegate's usual number of votes -- and I am fairly certain that I am speaking for most of that region's other long-term members too when I say that we don't want to have to get involved in empire-building ourselves in order to maintain our 'relevance' in the face of other regions that use empire-building as a way of accumulating larger votes in the GA.

I'm not sure which region you are from - this is purely affecting the delegate votes, and redistributing them. Your region will not lose delegate votes (unless you choose to let your region be annexed) and will not be prevented or hindered from creating resolutions etc. This would hopefully transfer the big WA voting blocs into different camps, with different views, so that stacking would not be so evident in the early stages of a WA Resolution.

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Stellonia
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Postby Stellonia » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:20 pm

Shouldn't the founder or delegate of the conquering region also consent to the annexation?

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NOrTh pAcIfiC spY
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Postby NOrTh pAcIfiC spY » Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:41 pm

Stellonia wrote:Shouldn't the founder or delegate of the conquering region also consent to the annexation?

Option 1: Executive WA option
To annex a region using the Executive WA delegate controls, the puppet which the annexing region (say region A) wants to place as governor must be promoted to the WA delegate of the region (say region B). Then in the regional controls, (same sort of process as requesting an embassy, except with an annexation option), the WA delegate (of region B) requests to surrender sovereignty to the region (A) the WA delegate wishes to be annexed by (potentially costing an amount of influence). The Founder of the region (A) (or the WA delegate if executive) may accept the regions (B) sovereignty, which would immediately start the annexation process.

Option 2: Founder option
The only difference with the founder option and the Executive WA delegate option, is that the founder requests to surrender sovereignty (not using any influence). There still has to be a WA delegate who would become the governor, and everything else is the same as option 1.

It was hidden in The Great Wall of Text, sorry about that.

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Canton Empire
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Postby Canton Empire » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:01 am

I really like spy's idea. I want to know if the idea is under consideration
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Mousebumples
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Postby Mousebumples » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:41 am

Canton Empire wrote:I really like spy's idea. I want to know if the idea is under consideration

Admins do not provided status updates on request. When an idea is ready to be launched (or has been launched), you'll be notified along with everyone else.
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Canton Empire
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Postby Canton Empire » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:12 am

Mousebumples wrote:
Canton Empire wrote:I really like spy's idea. I want to know if the idea is under consideration

Admins do not provided status updates on request. When an idea is ready to be launched (or has been launched), you'll be notified along with everyone else.

I just want to know if their thinking About it, not working on it
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:56 am

Canton Empire wrote:I just want to know if their thinking About it, not working on it

If admin isn't posting updates when they're actively working on something, why on earth would you expect them to post updates when they're just thinking about something?

Your constant requests for updates have been noted, and consistently denied. Please stop asking because it's not going to change ... and you're just being annoying about it.

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NOrTh pAcIfiC spY
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Postby NOrTh pAcIfiC spY » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:27 pm

Would I be able to grab some more feedback on this. It doesn't need to be anyone with a fancy colour beside their name, or a member of R/D, this is meant to be for everyone. Negative feedback (as well as positive) is welcome, as long as there is a reason behind this. No one's opinion is irrelevant, and I need it to stop this from becoming an echo chamber.

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Eist
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Postby Eist » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:49 am

Happy 2 year Summit anniversary, R/D!

Is that enough?
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NOrTh pAcIfiC spY
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Postby NOrTh pAcIfiC spY » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:15 pm

I'm thinking Governors should be Executive Officers in regards to appointing Regional Officers (possibly not when there is another delegate in the region)

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Cresenthia
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Postby Cresenthia » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:16 pm

North Pacific Spy wrote:I'm thinking Governors should be Executive Officers in regards to appointing Regional Officers (possibly not when there is another delegate in the region)

Seems to make sense.

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NOrTh pAcIfiC spY
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Postby NOrTh pAcIfiC spY » Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:10 pm

North Pacific Spy's Annexation Proposal

(Repost with edits - may only edit this version from now)

This change would allow a region to formally "annex" another. This would work in much the same way as embassies, but would be displayed differently on the region page.

The intention of this change is to:
Give an outcome to an invasion that raiders can aim for.
Give in-game recognition to the control that some regions exert over others.
Prevent regions from being destroyed in the process of an invasion.
Allow a possible alternative to a refound.
Allow regions to remain in play.
Allow larger raids and WA conflicts to occur.
Allow natives to gain independence, and become involved in the R/D game.
Remove barriers to the R/D game.

Any region could annex another, or be annexed by another region
This includes founded regions, founderless regions, regions with or without WA delegates (although there would need to be a WA delegate for the annexation process, but there would not need to be a WA delegate to keep a region annexed)


How long it takes to annex a region, and to "de-annex" it.
It would take approximately one week (14 updates) to either annex a region, or for an annexed region to gain independence from the annexing region. This is to make annexations difficult but not difficult enough to make refounding a better option. This is all up for discussion, nothing is set in stone for both my proposal, and the annexation change in general.

What influence cost there is for annexation.
The influence cost of an annexation would either be non-existent or very little. The main barrier to an annexation would be time, rather than influence. This is because influence can not always be a proper representation of the control of a region.

How an annexation is displayed on the region page both for the annexing and the annexed region.

For the colonising/annexing region
The regions annexed or colonised by the Imperialist region would be displayed on the region page, below the WFE, between the embassy list and the tag list. The regions annexed would be shown exactly like the embassies, with a list of embassies, with the order changeable on the regional control page.

Regions being colonised/annexed and regions gaining independence would be shown similarly to embassy openings/closures.

The reason for this would be firstly because of Sedge's original post, and secondly because this is an already refined system created by embassies. Annexations will copy many different aspects of embassies because embassies are intuitive, and potentially coding could be copied over for the displays etc. - I'm not a coder, so I just pray and do rain dances and hope for it to all work out.

Image


(I couldn't change split the embassy closures and Independences into separate boxes, nor the embassy openings and annexations/colonisations. The wording is more of a place holder rather than having any semblance of being a final copy.) - Had some more thoughts about wording, perhaps different wording to show which region is deciding to give up/break free from the other region.
E.g.
B annexes A: 'This region is being annexed by Region B' and 'This region is annexing Region A'
A decides it doesn't want B anymore: 'This region is in the process of throwing off the shackles of Region B and forging it's own path.' and 'Region A is revolting, with foolish dreams of independence'
B decides it doesn't want A anymore: 'This region is being granted independence from Region B' and 'This region is throwing off the dead weight which is Region A'

These are ideas - but some sort of amusing, but easy to understand description, like the rest of nationstates (okay, the description bit not so much). My current one didn't work with the presentation, but the box idea still stands, despite my terrible wording attempts.

For the colonised/annexed region
At the top of the WFE in non-removable (unless the region is un-annexed) large (red?) writing, 'This region has been annexed by [insert Imperialist region here], who have assigned [insert nation here] as the Governor of [insert annexed region here]

There would also be when applicable the annexing or unannexing countdown on the annexed region - as well as the similar to embassies idea, see above picture. The aim is to make it extremely obvious that it is happening.

Letting people know an annexation is taking place
As well as the WFE changes, not every nation goes on their regions WFE/RMB daily. To remedy this, if an annexation process is started, completed, or deannexation process is started or completed, a notification or telegram - not sure which would be best, goes out to all members of the annexed region (and possibly the annexing region, annexing another region is meant to be a big deal). Also, on the Empires page, there will be a recent history of failed and successful annexations, as well as failed and successful independences. Additionally, there will be another part of the Empires page, likely the top and unmissable, of the current annexations and deannexations ongoing across nationstates. There will also be events logged in the world page, dossiers, and any other page that currently stores events (like when a nation gets banjected, it gives two events) - not sure how to properly explain this.

Whether a specific page should be introduced to record in-game "empires".
On the http://www.nationstates.net/page=list_regions page, underneath the Banner Title Regions, there are different options for sorting regions. By WC report, by population and by name. An optional idea (nice to have) would be to allow another 3 ranking systems (or one ranking with three subranking options), depending on the importance of the annexing in the future.
The first would be a ranking, where those with the greatest number of colonies would be ranked first (quantity over quality).
The second would be a ranking, where those with the greatest number of individual nations in the colonies as a total would be ranked first (a mixture - could be biased with massive puppet regions e.g. Nugut).
The third would be a ranking, where those with the greatest number of WA nations in the colonies as a total would be ranked first (quality)
The reason for having this is mainly for prestige, to give some kind of prestige to larger empires, and to show which regions are not. Despite the three different rankings, the rankings would still likely not show the true power of a region, because a regions power is more than just the regions and WA's they control, diplomatic alliances between empires would not be shown (because there is little way to measure them with GP mechanics).

How to annex a region
There are two ways to annex a region. Both require a puppet nation/nation that the annexing region is satisfied with keeping indefinitely in place (for the length of annexation, could be for a week or two, or for years), and that nation as the WA delegate for the period of time needed to annex the region. This is because if a nation is being appointed a Governor of a region, they must be able to control a region for a week (or however long the annexation period is), otherwise they are unlikely unfit for the position. Also, this would provide a tangible way of preventing an annexation, and a tangible way to protect an annexation.

Option 1: Executive WA option
To annex a region using the Executive WA delegate controls, the puppet which the annexing region (say region A) wants to place as governor must be promoted to the WA delegate of the region (say region B). Then in the regional controls, (same sort of process as requesting an embassy, except with an annexation option), the WA delegate (of region B) requests to surrender sovereignty to the region (A) the WA delegate wishes to be annexed by (potentially costing an amount of influence). The Founder of the region (A) (or the WA delegate if executive) may accept the regions (B) sovereignty, which would immediately start the annexation process.

Option 2: Founder option
The only difference with the founder option and the Executive WA delegate option, is that the founder requests to surrender sovereignty (not using any influence). There still has to be a WA delegate who would become the governor, and everything else is the same as option 1.

Process of annexation
When the process of annexation is started, there would be a message on both regions page (like the embassy closure or opening notices) with a countdown (6 days, 23 hours etc.) until the region is annexed. In this time, there are multiple ways of preventing the annexation from going through. Both Founders of both the region annexing and the region being annexed can cancel the process of annexation at any time. Both WA delegates (if executive) can also cancel the process of annexation at any time. Where the process of annexation differs from the process of creating an embassy, is the annexed regions WA delegate. Because the annexed regions WA delegate is going to become governor, and the nation immobile, if the WA delegate in the region that is attempting to be annexed is displaced from delegacy, even for a single update, the annexation is cancelled, and the entire process reset (without an refund on influence). The process takes 7 days or 14 updates.

Successful annexation
If a region is successfully annexed, a variety of things happen. Firstly, the WA delegate throughout the annexation process becomes the Governor of the annexed region. This means a variety of things. A regional history event occurs on both regions pages. This is because it is a significant event in both regions timeline. A tag appears on the top of the annexed regions page stating it has been annexed, and the region is added to the list of annexed regions of the annexing region. This is to show that a region has been annexed, rather than having it a secret.

Governor
The Governor of a region is an immobile nation that retains many of the benefits of being in the WA, without being having to be a member of the WA, allowing the Governor to have a different WA nation, in or outside of the region, without having to sacrifice control of the region. The Governor nation is immobile, as in it cannot move regions, cannot accept recruitment telegrams, cannot be ejected, or otherwise leave the region without first losing Governor status (barring CTE's and Moderator Intervention). The Governor nation can become the WA delegate of the region, gain and retain endorsements, and earn influence, all without being part of the WA.

The Governor nation can either be in or out of the World Assembly. Being inside of the World Assembly gives the normal influence income rate, while not being part of the WA gives half the normal influence income rate. Also, the Governor nation being a member of the WA allows the Governor nation to endorse other nations, vote on WA resolutions (individual votes, region votes are transferred) and to propose resolutions.

For the time that the Governor nation is Governor of the region, it cannot be ejected, banned, or be otherwise kicked from the region, barring CTE's or moderator intervention.

WA voting
An advantage of annexing an region is that all endorsements, which would normally provide the WA delegate with extra voting power, is transferred to the annexing region's WA delegate, whether or not the Governor is WA or not, or is in power. As long as the region is annexed, all endorsements the (WA Delegate or Governor, not sure which) which would normally switch to WA voting power if the region was not annexed and the nation was the WA Delegate of the region is instead transferred to the annexing region's WA delegate. If the annexing region does not a WA delegate these votes are instead lost.

Governor loss of WA delegate status
If another nation replaces the Governor nation as WA delegate, the Governor nation has 7 days to recover delegacy before the Governor automatically loses Governor status, and the region is unannexed. The only way to cancel this is to return the Governor to delegacy, which cancels the countdown. If a the Governor nation has zero endorsements, yet there are no other nations in the region with an endorsement, the Governor remains in the position of WA delegate, with all powers. The Governor would gain influence at half the rate a normal puppet nation in a region would, or if WA, would gain influence at a normal WA without endorsement rate. If the Governor has an equal number of endorsements as another nation in the region, the Governor nation would keep/regain delegacy. This would overrule any other tie mechanism currently in place.

Declaring Independence
The Founder of the annexed region can declare independence from the region that annexed them. This will start a 7 day countdown which unless the founder decides to cancel the independence, cannot be prevented by any other party. At the end of the 7 days, the annexation process will be reversed, the two regions will be independent from one another, and the Governor will become a normal nation again.

Resigning from Governorship
The Governor of the annexed region can resign from their post as governor. This will start a 7 day countdown which unless the Governor decides to cancel the resignation, cannot be prevented by any other party. At the end of the 7 days, the annexation process will be reversed, the two regions will be independent from one another, and the Governor will become a normal nation again.

Granting Independence
The annexing region can grant the annexed region independence. The WA delegate (executive) or Founder will have to start the process of giving the colonised region independence This will start a 7 day countdown which unless the Founder or executive WA delegate decides to cancel the resignation, cannot be prevented by any other party. At the end of the 7 days, the annexation process will be reversed, the two regions will be independent from one another, and the Governor will become a normal nation again.



Clock Skill
The fourteen update time to either annex or unannex a region is an attempt to promote control over a region, politically and physically, rather than have a team of updaters quickly be able to change the regions status. To keep a region, realistically, the annexing region must either devote precious WA's to keep the region, which is not an ideal situation, or the annexing region can take political control of the region and rely on native endorsements to keep control of the region. The length of time required for a annexation allows a window for nations that are not available at update to have an opportunity to participate.

Regional Password
An annexed region's password would be visible to all WA (or all WA and non WA, leaning towards WA only nations) nations in the region. This is to allow a region the ability to fight back rather than having an endgame when the delegate puts on a hidden password onto a region, slowly choking it to death.

R/D/N relationships
After a region is annexed, the annexing region can either have a positive or negative relationship with the annexed region.

If the annexing region has a positive relationship with the annexed region, the native population would support the Governor nation with endorsements, resulting in the freedom of WA nations for the annexing region which annexed the region. The annexing region would become the defender of the region in R/D terms, with a friendly native population, and would provide protection from other regions wanting to expand their own empires or destroy the annexing regions empire.

If the annexing region has a negative relationship with the annexed region, the native population would not support the Governor nation with endorsements, resulting in the lack of freedom of WA nations for the annexing region which annexed the region. The annexing region would become the invader of the region in R/D terms, with a hostile native population. This would make password defences of the region ineffective - due to natives knowing the password and leaking it to other defender (in this context regions either wanting to liberate the region, take it for their own, or destroy the annexing empire) organisations so they can organise liberations. This would also mean the region would quickly become a drain on limited WA's, and the annexing empire can make a decision, to either hold the region with an iron grip, and keep the Governor nation WA, in the hope to gather enough influence for a refound, decide to attempt to repair relations with the native population, or admit defeat and withdraw before being pushed out by successful liberations.

Natives would hold more power in this proposal, and would be able to decide whether the annexation was temporary, or permanent, and whether the annexation becomes a good thing (effortless control with many WA votes transferred to the annexing regions WA delegate) or a bad thing (pulling WA's from the rest of the Empire)

How would regions not interested in the R/D proposal use the Annexation Proposal
There is a variety of different ways regions that are not interested in R/D can use the annexation proposal (although it was intended predominately for imperialist regions)

WA votes
Annexation allows the ability for a region to pledge its delegate WA votes to another region. By being annexed, the WA delegate slot (filled by Governor)'s votes are transferred to the annexing region.

Region collectors
Region collectors would have a simple way of listing their collections, rather than having to clog up the list of legitimate diplomatic embassies with the regions that they control.

Communication
Much like an embassy, members on the annexing region may post on the annexed region's RMB at any time, and would be unable to be disabled by the governor of the region/ WA delegate. The founder would have the option to disable postings on the RMB from the annexing region.

Other annexed regions would be able to post on annexed regions RMB in the same Empire if allowed by the Governor/WA delegate or founder of the annexed region. E.g. Region A annexes both Region B and Region C. Region B could allow Region C the ability to post on their RMB without opening an embassy.

This would promote RMB activity, and while spam might be a risk from a nation inside the annexing region, the Empire should have a strong enough hold on their home region to prevent this.

Passwords
Regions that have been annexed can be passworded, but the password would be visible to either all nations in the region, or all WA nations in a region. This is to prevent another region conquering the region, annexing it, and slowly strangling the region by passwording it. The visibility of the password to natives of the region means that the Governor has to get along with the natives to password the region, otherwise native nations will leak the password to other organisations, which would stage a liberation. To prevent this caveat from making it more desirable to kick all and refound the region, I suggest (unpopular opinion, brace)...

Increasing the influence cost of a hidden password dramatically.


Protection
Provides an unejectable potential delegate for 7 days. Also gives a warning to the allied regions (like when an embassy is destroyed, but a stealth raid doesn't need to close embassies, but if the delegacy changes, the countdown is started until the region is unannexed unless the governor returns to delegacy. Also allows an extra WA for regions that allow themselves to be annexed, because the nation that would originally be WA for the delegate can resign from the WA and endorse their puppet.

RP regions
Some regions I've seen have split Role Play onto the RMB, and have found it difficult to write OCC and IC without clogging up the RMB. Annexing a region would allow RP puppets to use the RMB on the annexed region, while keeping the annexing region clear for OCC regions.

Puppet Storages
Annexing would provide a proper link to Puppet Storages for specific regions, with the home region.


How will it impact the CTE rate of regional founders
Probably will not significantly impact the CTE rate of regional founders. Founders of empires might be less likely to CTE, but otherwise this proposal would not really address this issue.

Impacts on Tag Raiding
This proposal would have little impact on the mechanics of tag raiding, except for increasing the number of WA's around, meaning more raiders, more defending WA native endorsements, and potentially more defenders.

Impacts on Long-Term holds and refounding
Hopefully provide a viable alternative to refounding. Despite the higher risk involved than a refound, Annexations are meant to provide different benefits. Annexations should allow long-term holds and community building to become more common.

Copied over from earlier post - reformatting and wording.
How will it impact long-term holds and attempts at refounds?

Impact long-term holds - it would encourage long-term holds, and would allow Imperialist Regions etc. to take the region, without destroying it. Refounds, it would go a number of different ways. There could be more refounds, due to the greater number of WA nations free to capture regions. Refounding would still be the only way to properly protect a region from liberations etc. but hopefully the annex proposal would reduce the number of refounds.

How will it impact subterfuge and intelligence gathering?

With natives always able to see the password (not too sure about this), deep sleepers in regions deemed at risk would be able to gather intelligence and passwords, so that liberation's could take place, and the region could gain Independence. That may promote having inactive puppets in a region, clogging up space and update time, although that already seems to be the case. Intelligence gathering - there would be a list like the embassies list, but of annexations, that would allow other regions to quickly view another regions holdings. Natives in a annexed region would always be able to see the password (I'm still not 100% sure about this, doesn't feel right natives not being able to see the password, but doesn't feel right about them always being able to see it as well - potentially have a far, far higher cost of invisible password, need to explore this later) which would increase the ability of other regions to intelligence gather, from the normal 'send delegate TG for access to region, share password, conquer' type intelligence at the present time.

How will it impact the non-R/D player that just wants to enjoy their (foundered) region?

It will impact the non-R/D player who wants to enjoy their region in a variety of ways. If they are hostile towards the invasion, there would be a thing on the WFE about it being annexed by Region B, and the WA Delegate/Governor position would have a nation they would not support. If they were happy with the region, it would reduce their own opportunities for delegacy due to the Governor having the power. It could also increase the amount of regions conquered with a larger level of WA nations free. On the other hand, they would have a presumably active Governor (Governor wants to keep control of region, and only practical way to do it is to keep natives happy for native endorsements, so the home region doesn't have to devote WA's to the region). The region would survive, at least for the short term, so they won't wake up one morning, and find their community destroyed, and their region refounded as a trophy.

How will it impact players whose Home Region updates early or updates late?

I'm not sure if this is applicable - more WA's I guess in circulation.

How will it impact mid-update recruitment efforts by either side to get more WA nations for their target?

I'm not sure if this is applicable - more WA's I guess in circulation.

How will it impact the CTE rate of regional founders?

Will probably not significantly impact the CTE rate of regional founders. Founders may be cautious of CTEing for the worry of losing their region, but probably would not change anything significantly. With more WA's in circulation (as in they won't be tied down holding the delegacy of some strange region), there would likely be larger scale WA raids and liberations, meaning that regional militaries would become more active. If the R/D game becomes more active, a larger population of natives, raiders, defenders, imperialists etc. would become more active, and a more active game means more active founders. Founder CTE's usually happen before annexations, so this won't impact directly.


Potential Security Council Impacts
This proposal impacts Security Council in two separate ways. Firstly, the WA votes passed from the Annexed Region to to the Annexing Regions WA Delegate means that regions with Empires have a greater effect on resolution approvals and greater WA voting power.

Also annexations open up whole new possibilities for SC resolutions. A normal liberation proposal removes the password from a region. In an annexed region, natives can already see the password, but depending on the motives of the proposers of resolutions, liberation proposals would still be able to circumnavigate a password to protect a region, and leave it wide open.

There is also potential for multiple new SC Resolutions but given my lack of faith in the SC's use of the power, I'll let someone else suggest some in a different thread - but the interaction of new SC Resolutions could potentially cause problems with annexation proposal.

RO compatibility
With the recent (as of this edit) RO addition to gameplay, I cannot properly predict what the impacts of this would have on my annexation idea. I think because Governors would occupy the WA delegate position and power that Governors should be executive officers (in regards to RO's etc.) unless another nation retakes the delegate spot. If the Governor replaces the other nation in delegate spot (either by the Governor gaining more endorsements, or by the other nation losing them) they should be returned to executive officer position.

Sedge's Annexation vs. NPS's Annexation
With the previous annexation proposal by Sedge, as stated by a variety of other posters on this thread, currently a glorified embassy and prestige thing, although useful, does not promote keeping the community, but instead promotes kicking the entire region, and in the process destroying whatever community that previously existed to annex. NPS's one hopefully does not have the same type encouragement. The previous annexation proposal does not really change the current necessity to destroy a region to control it, because most regions are unwilling to devote WA's to hold a region indefinitely, making a refound the only viable option, while hopefully NPS's one offers a slightly less secure, but overall superior option. The aim of this proposal is to provide an alternative to destroying the region, while keeping the majority of Sedge's good ideas.

Cresenthia's Proposal vs. NPS's Annexation
Cresenthia's proposal does not allow a way for natives to free their region, barring somehow becoming the Colonial Executive, which would be unlikely for the colonising region to do so, the region who took over the native region somehow wanting to give up the region, or a SC resolution, which would overlook many different regions. NPS's proposal has the SC resolution etc, but also allows taking delegacy, which is a far more simple concept to understand, and far more achievable for many native regions, as opposed to a SC Resolution, or a long time infiltration. I could continue this, but this seems to make the idea unpalatable as an actual implementation, if there is next to no way of natives for freeing themselves independently.

NPS's Annexation vs. appointment of a quasi founder
A quasi founder (nation that is not the founder, but would have the founders powers and privileges would not allow natives to free themselves, just like above.

NPS's Annexation vs. Improved Wordiness
Simplicity - if requested I can make a few paragraphs, but moving this through embassies, and having military gameplay only open to a few delegates, as opposed to the normal player in general is not desirable imho, and this is not what NPS's proposal is.

Multiple level annexations
Regions that have been annexed cannot annex other regions. Regions that have annexed other regions cannot be annexed until all colonies have been freed. Colonies don't transfer, because if one region has created an empire, another region stealing the original empires home region does not deserve to gain the entire empire, and instead should earn the place.

One of the many edits: I'm not too sure now that they shouldn't be possible. The who does it hurt thing comes to mind.

Embassies
I believe that the governor (or delegate if they are in the process of being removed) of the annexed region should still retain power over embassies (along with RO officers with the ability) - the founder if existing as well. This is to reduce the negative aspects of being annexed voluntarily, for protection. If a region wants to be annexed to pass on WA votes, to increase protection, or really for any reason, I don't think that the region should lose the ability to create embassies and have relations with different regions. The annexing region obviously would have significant control over this, because they would retain the WA seat (unless the region was in the process of being deannexed) - controlling (or partially controlling in the case of a different WA delegate, a founder, or RO's they didn't appoint) the diplomatic capabilities of the region. The reason for allowing a region to create embassies outside of the region that annexed them, is because an annexation doesn't have to be a full sacrifice of sovereignty, and a region can have diplomatic ties with another region, while the annexing/annexed region does not want to.

More questions/comments:
Not quite sure about influence cost of an annexation
Not too sure where Governor nations CTEing would fit into this.
Not sure if the Governor nation resigns from the WA the endorsements would reset or not.
Not sure if the transferred WA resolution voting power should be gauged from the current WA delegate of the region or the governor of the region.
Sorry about the past presentation - more of jotting down ideas rather than actually presenting them - probably might leave this post and make a second tomorrow.
Passwords - I was aware of the ability to do hidden passwords (generally, not such the influence costs of passwords etc.) - allowing natives to see the password is what I was meaning in the last post.
Not sure about the Granting Independence - trolls seizing delegacy as preventing the independence on the last day, and cancelling the process of Granting independence, restarting the countdown.
Used many different ideas from the rest of the thread - haven't provided credit, if people want, I could, but it'll take a while.
WA delegate votes - not sure whether the annexation proposal would allow the annexing region to give multiple approvals for a proposal. Pro's and cons for both ways.
RO's - need some more work on how it would interact with them.
Ignore my messages before this, I think I have copied over the gist onto this post.
Annexed regions posting on other annexed regions RMB's?
This proposal needs far more feedback - and improvement.

TLDR WIP:
To annex a region, both regions have to agree. Governor nation has to be WA delegate for one week uninterrupted to annex the region after the process is started. If it losing delegacy for a second, the process has to be manually restarted.

Annexing means the Governor nation is unmoveable/stuck to the annexed region. It is automatically delegate with delegate powers, unless another nation has more endorsements - equal endorsements go to the Governor nation, no matter the influence etc. of other nations.

If a nation is Governor, it can resign from the WA, and still retain delegacy/endorsements, and be endorsed like a normal WA nation. It would earn influence at a half rate of a normal nation, and it would retain delegacy even with 0 endorsements (as long as another nation in the region did not have more endorsements).

There would be a few cosmetic changes, e.g. Gov nation at the top of the page, big 'This has been annexed by blah' at the top, and near the embassies list, there would be an annexations list for the annexing region. Also a few pages to measure the size of an empire.

For a region to lose annexation, it could happen in a variety of ways. The Governor nation could lose delegacy, which starts an week countdown which only stops if the Governor regains delegacy. The Founder of the annexing region could free the annexed region, which starts a week countdown only cancel-able by the Founder. The Founder of the region that has been annexed (if applicable) could proclaim independence, which starts a week countdown only cancel-able by the Founder. The WA delegate of the annexing region could free the region, which would start a week countdown, cancelable by both the WA delegate position and the founder.

Passwords would be visible to natives, and hidden passwords visible to WA natives. WA delegate votes/approvals would be passed onto the annexing regions WA Delegate/WA RO if applicable.
Last edited by NOrTh pAcIfiC spY on Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:49 pm, edited 8 times in total.

User avatar
Cresenthia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 576
Founded: Mar 03, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Cresenthia » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:19 am

Woah, that's a lot of stuff to read. But I have my own proposal:

Integration with ROs:
Instead of having a governor, the imperializing region will be able to appoint an colonial executive for each of its its annexes/colonies, and will be able to appoint one additional officer for every annexed region. Example: if a region has 9 colonies (the proposal should be called colonization rather than annex), they can appoint a total of 21 officers, rather than the current 12. It is possible for a governor to be such of more than one colony, provided that they live within the "empire" comprising of the "home region" and its colonies.

The colonizing process:
One of the following may intiate the colonization process: a regional executive, or a RO with power over either embassies, or perhaps a new colonial power. Once agreed to by officers or executives of both region, the colonization process starts, taking either 1.5, or twice the time of embassy construction.

Status of colonies:
As mentioned earlier, colonial executives will not be required to reside within the colony, but they must reside within the greater empire. Colonial nations shall automatically be able to post on the imperializing region's RMB, and vice versa. Nations in embassy regions will be able to post at the empire's discretion. (There will be an option to allow embassy posters in colonies, only regoinal officers, and the like).

Decolonization:
As long as there is a colonial executive for that particular colony within the empire, the WA delegate's position can be made non-executve. Without it however, the WA delegate is automatically executive. Any colonial executive or imperial executive or officer with certain privleges will be able to initiate the decolonization process, similar to the colonization process. The newly independent region is automatically given an embassy with the former colonial power, the the construction of this embassy can be canceled. Alternatively, regions could be decolonized instaneously by a SC resolution.
Last edited by Cresenthia on Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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