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The NS Mens Rights Thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Hirota
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The NS Mens Rights Thread

Postby Hirota » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:26 am

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The NS Mens Rights thread



Objectives
Inspired by this post in our sister thread, this thread is has been posted to attempt to promote constructive and civil discussion on the issues facing men. Whilst men enjoy some advantages in some areas, there are also areas where men are disadvantaged.

You might encounter topics focusing on areas of inequality for men such as
    - homelessness and corresponding difficulty in accessing shelters
    - mental health and suicide
    - criminal sentencing
    - access to children and single parent custody
    - disparity in education
    - vilification (such as but not limited to a presumption of guilt in domestic violence)
    - recognition of male victims of rape
    - uneven distribution in workplace deaths
And of course, legitimate criticism of the Men's Rights movement is welcomed.

We would expect you to act civily, without resorting to misandry, misogyny, ad hominems, strawmen, trolling, baiting, harrassing or any of the other behaviours deemed unacceptable on NS and accessible in the one stop rules shop.

A quick note in particular on the use of certain links - avoiceformen has deemed a Forbidden illegal link on NS because of it's involvement in doxxing. Participants are urged to act with consideration when including supporting evidence or external links.



Following a discussion on the Feminist thread, it was suggested by Swith that it is worth providing some information for survivors of sexual abuse would be worth adding to the opening post.
https://1in6.org has a lot of information, and has links to more local resources in the UK, Canada, America and Australia.
http://www.justdetention.org/ is a charity primarily addressing rape in prison in the US.
http://www.thehavens.org.uk/ charity mostly based in London, UK.
http://www.survivorsuk.org/


These FAQ's are not necessarily the opinions of this poster - if you disagree with the answer provided, or want another Q & A in here, please do let me know.

What is the Mens rights movement?
The Men's Rights Movement (MRM) is a loose term for the collective activities of people that feel that men are not being treated equally by society.
Not all of the disparate groups who fight for the rights of men associate themselves with the MRM, since there is no formal definition of the MRM.
However, it is emerging that there is a growing movement fighting for the rights of male individuals and fathers in countries such as Canada, the USA, the UK, Australia and New Zealand. The rapid growth in the number of blogs, websites and organizations devoted to these topics sends a clear message that this isn't a small issue that is going to just go away on its own.
The MRM is not a coherent group. There are a growing number of official advocacy groups that lobby for men's issues, but they are scattered and focused on specific issues.

Is the Mens Rights movement anti-feminism?
Image

With a diverse group, there is no clear yes or no answer, but in general the Mens Rights Movement is pro-equality. The MRM do not wish to remove women's rights, or even fight against women's rights. Instead, we simply believe that men deserve equal rights.

Similarly, with the several different feminist labels in existence,it is meaningless to ask whether the Men's Rights Movement is anti-feminist until an agreement is reached on what feminism actually is. Views on feminism vary as much as views on Men's Rights, if not more so, and it is impossible to globally state what a feminist believes.

Some feminists may sometimes speak or act in ways which appear to promote the inequality of men, boys, and their children, and we oppose all anti-male discrimination, regardless of its source. Some feminists speak or act with misandry, or hatred of boys and men, and the MRM oppose that, regardless of its source. There are also people with similarly extremist views within the MRM that actively oppose certain rights for women also, which are often associated with the fundamentalist conservative movement. In between these lie people with a range of more egalitarian beliefs, who hope that there may, one day, no longer be a need for gender specific civil rights movements. What is "right" and "wrong" is left to be determined through open and civil discourse - hence the need for this thread.

There are groups, such as the fundamentalist conservative movement who hold the view that societies are more successful with things like defined gender roles. This isn't specifically anti-women's rights, though it is anti-equal rights. Instead, it is a view that men and women should have different responsibilities, and thus different rights and privileges in order to facilitate these roles.

Is the MRM anti-woman?
No. Many prominent members of the MRM are women. Many of these women come to the movement through their experiences with their own friends or family, who they feel either have been or are in danger of being discriminated against by society. Many people with the MRM experience with discrimination in their own personal lives, and find a similarity between their experiences and others within the MRM.


If there is a link or resource that should be included in this list, please do let me know.


Anyhoo, lets do what most original posts should do, and have a starting point or two to kick things off

There is an argument that the MRM is a reactionary movement against Feminism. Do you agree that this is true, or that it might simply be the perception from the outside looking in? What can the MRM do to counter this?

Also, what do you believe is the single most important objective for the MRM?

I hold an egalitarian position, which means I recognise the merits of both the MRM and Feminist cause, whilst objecting to the behaviour of the more radical elements of both.

My involvement in the MRM is limited to a few weeks of research inspired by the rash of Feminism threads I've been exposed to since becoming a regular participant in General.
Last edited by Hirota on Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:19 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Alyakia
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Postby Alyakia » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:34 am

there are obvious problems (like male victims of domestic abuse/rape) in which men get screwed but i'm still not convinced there needs to be an entirely separate movement to address them and am skeptical of most organized attempts to create one because they tend to attract the "the best way to fight rape is to legalize it crowd". while people complain feminists don't care about men or speak out against extremists i haven't seen many "men's rights activists" denounce the extremists in their movements either. admittedly i don't pay much attention to the related threads so maybe you will have something to show me on that front?
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Postby Bentrada » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:34 am

Can't you discuss this on reddit?
Last edited by Bentrada on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Hirota
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Postby Hirota » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:36 am

Bentrada wrote:Can't you discuss this on reddit?
Yes we can. We can also discuss it here.
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Frenline Delpha
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Postby Frenline Delpha » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:37 am

Bentrada wrote:Can't you discuss this on reddit?

But isn't the point of General to discuss your political beliefs?
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Bentrada
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Postby Bentrada » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:39 am

Frenline Delpha wrote:
Bentrada wrote:Can't you discuss this on reddit?

But isn't the point of General to discuss your political beliefs?

Yes, among pretty much anything else that doesn't belong in other forums.

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Postby Farnhamia » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:41 am

Bentrada wrote:
Frenline Delpha wrote:But isn't the point of General to discuss your political beliefs?

Yes, among pretty much anything else that doesn't belong in other forums.

Right, so if you find the topic distasteful or silly or uninteresting, why post? I personally, not in official capacity, find posts like your "Can't you discuss this on reddit?" to be as much spam as INB4s, which are spam here.
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Bentrada
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Postby Bentrada » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:42 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Bentrada wrote:Yes, among pretty much anything else that doesn't belong in other forums.

Right, so if you find the topic distasteful or silly or uninteresting, why post? I personally, not in official capacity, find posts like your "Can't you discuss this on reddit?" to be as much spam as INB4s, which are spam here.

Okay. Delete it then, or tell me to do so.

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Postby The Serbian Empire » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:44 am

Bentrada wrote:Can't you discuss this on reddit?

The problem is that TheRedPill isn't exactly a good place to debate the activity as it's only MRAs there. This would be a place where one could debate it. I hold beliefs that are both fitting of liberal feminism and within the MRA movement.
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Hirota
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Postby Hirota » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:46 am

Alyakia wrote:there are obvious problems (like male victims of domestic abuse/rape) in which men get screwed but i'm still not convinced there needs to be an entirely separate movement to address them and am skeptical of most organized attempts to create one because they tend to attract the "the best way to fight rape is to legalize it crowd". while people complain feminists don't care about men or speak out against extremists i haven't seen many "men's rights activists" denounce the extremists in their movements either. admittedly i don't pay much attention to the related threads so maybe you will have something to show me on that front?
Paul Elam is probably the most publicised extremist in the MRM. A quick search reveals that the subreddit "mensrights" has multiple topics condemning him for some of his words.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/sea ... r=on&t=all

The Serbian Empire wrote:The problem is that TheRedPill isn't exactly a good place to debate the activity as it's only MRAs there. This would be a place where one could debate it. I hold beliefs that are both fitting of liberal feminism and within the MRA movement.


RedPill has some elements in its beliefs that resonate with the MRM, but there are significant differences between the two that make them incompatible. RedPill is focused on individual self improvement, whereas the MRM is more concerned with collective improvement of rights.
Last edited by Hirota on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:46 am

Alyakia wrote:there are obvious problems (like male victims of domestic abuse/rape) in which men get screwed but i'm still not convinced there needs to be an entirely separate movement to address them and am skeptical of most organized attempts to create one because they tend to attract the "the best way to fight rape is to legalize it crowd". while people complain feminists don't care about men or speak out against extremists i haven't seen many "men's rights activists" denounce the extremists in their movements either. admittedly i don't pay much attention to the related threads so maybe you will have something to show me on that front?


The MRM regularly denounces it's extremists.
For one thing, we named The Nolan Effect after one of our most notorious ones.

"The Nolan Effect: As a movement grows, the probability of it attracting at least one complete fucking nutjob approaches one."

Other than that, go to the MRM reddit and ask them their opinion on the extremists. They'll tell you straight we don't like them and want them to fuck off.

Organized attempts to create a mens movement are DEPICTED as attracting that crowd, but it often isn't actually the case. Go to the MRM reddit and try and find a post like that, you won't find one.

The need for a movement separate from feminism can and has been clearly outlined previously.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bentrada
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Postby Bentrada » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:47 am

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Bentrada wrote:Can't you discuss this on reddit?

The problem is that TheRedPill isn't exactly a good place to debate the activity as it's only MRAs there. This would be a place where one could debate it. I hold beliefs that are both fitting of liberal feminism and within the MRA movement.

I wasn't referring to only that /r/theredpill in that post. I was referring to reddit in general.

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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:47 am

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Bentrada wrote:Can't you discuss this on reddit?

The problem is that TheRedPill isn't exactly a good place to debate the activity as it's only MRAs there. This would be a place where one could debate it. I hold beliefs that are both fitting of liberal feminism and within the MRA movement.


TheRedPill is NOT the mens rights movement. Don't conflate them, that's something our detractors do to purposefully malign us.

Go ask TRP, and go ask the MRM. We are very, very different movements.

TRP revolves around accepting traditionalist interpretations of the gender dynamic, while the MRM rejects gender roles.
They are diametrically opposed.
Their conflation is a deliberate attempt to prevent mens rights from being discussed, and the frequency this occurs in feminist aligned media is one major reason for our movements opposition to feminism.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/com ... be_an_mra/

A thread where this becomes very clear.

A few of these are fair criticisms...of the Red Pill.
Feminists continue their shameless attempt to smear MRA's by conflating us with PUAs, while ignoring arguments related to male disposability, the empathy gap, misandry, female privilege, female hypo-agency, domestic violence, sexual abuse, education, the boy crisis, false accusations, the erosion of due process, custody laws that harm fathers and children, homelessness and workplace deaths, bodily autonomy, discrimination, reproductive rights, etc. etc. etc.
Seems like the best feminists can muster is to pretend as though MRA's are PUA's/tradcons and/or that our concerns are motivated by being "nice guys" who "can't get laid." The entitlement, lack of empathy, blatant deceit, and utter indifference to the welfare of men and boys and children in general is off the charts. The narcissism of the modern feminist knows no parallel.
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Literally none of those apply to MRAs.


It only emboldens us when they pull this shit, because it becomes clear they have no actual arguments. When the non-aligned come across this stuff, and then meet us, we can point out it's lies with actual sources and shit. Then they get really pissed that feminists made a fool out of them.
This kind of stuff is basically recruiting.
For fucking one thing, (And this is great, honestly) It gets guys who are feeling down on their luck when it comes to sex and upset over their self worth to seek US out, rather than red pill, so we can actually fix the problem of them tying their self worth to womens approval, rather than slapping a band aid on a gaping wound. So I kind of like it for a bunch of reasons. I mean yeh, it's aggrivating on some level to watch someone repeatedly lie maliciously, but on another, it's good for us. Because not only are their lies easy to prove wrong, they are in some ways beneficial, and it reminds us that we are, in fact, dealing with a bunch of evil *Censored*. Sometimes the doubts creep up on you, but lo and behold, they manage to remind you why you hate them so much. Keeps you in the game.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:51 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:58 am

Hirota wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:The problem is that TheRedPill isn't exactly a good place to debate the activity as it's only MRAs there. This would be a place where one could debate it. I hold beliefs that are both fitting of liberal feminism and within the MRA movement.


RedPill has some elements in its beliefs that resonate with the MRM, but there are significant differences between the two that make them incompatible. RedPill is focused on individual self improvement, whereas the MRM is more concerned with collective improvement of rights.

I agree... if it wasn't for the MRM, I wouldn't have been so troubled by the more militant and authoritarian aspects within feminism to the point I would have probably lived as a male in an unpleasant existent for many years. In reality, the MRM helped me transition by pointing out that I really didn't want to stay as male when I was questioning my gender identity.
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:01 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Alyakia wrote:there are obvious problems (like male victims of domestic abuse/rape) in which men get screwed but i'm still not convinced there needs to be an entirely separate movement to address them and am skeptical of most organized attempts to create one because they tend to attract the "the best way to fight rape is to legalize it crowd". while people complain feminists don't care about men or speak out against extremists i haven't seen many "men's rights activists" denounce the extremists in their movements either. admittedly i don't pay much attention to the related threads so maybe you will have something to show me on that front?


The MRM regularly denounces it's extremists.
For one thing, we named The Nolan Effect after one of our most notorious ones.

"The Nolan Effect: As a movement grows, the probability of it attracting at least one complete fucking nutjob approaches one."

Other than that, go to the MRM reddit and ask them their opinion on the extremists. They'll tell you straight we don't like them and want them to fuck off.

Organized attempts to create a mens movement are DEPICTED as attracting that crowd, but it often isn't actually the case. Go to the MRM reddit and try and find a post like that, you won't find one.

The need for a movement separate from feminism can and has been clearly outlined previously.

The idea of making a composite ideology holding both MRM and liberal feminist viewpoints seems very attractive to me.
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Postby Tahar Joblis » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:01 am

Alyakia wrote:there are obvious problems (like male victims of domestic abuse/rape) in which men get screwed but i'm still not convinced there needs to be an entirely separate movement to address them

The feminist movement will not address them, and in some cases - such as the above you have mentioned - tends to be the major factor in resisting addressing those problems.

It is painfully obvious that a movement separate from the feminist movement will be required in order to address any problem(s) that primarily affect men.

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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:03 am

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
The MRM regularly denounces it's extremists.
For one thing, we named The Nolan Effect after one of our most notorious ones.

"The Nolan Effect: As a movement grows, the probability of it attracting at least one complete fucking nutjob approaches one."

Other than that, go to the MRM reddit and ask them their opinion on the extremists. They'll tell you straight we don't like them and want them to fuck off.

Organized attempts to create a mens movement are DEPICTED as attracting that crowd, but it often isn't actually the case. Go to the MRM reddit and try and find a post like that, you won't find one.

The need for a movement separate from feminism can and has been clearly outlined previously.

The idea of making a composite ideology holding both MRM and liberal feminist viewpoints seems very attractive to me.


A composite ideology, certainly. But I think there is a need for seperate movements at this time, because of the hostility within the feminist movement to mens rights in general.
In a decade or so, perhaps that will change.

The trans-inclusive MRM position on transpersons is that it is best to consider both transmen and transwomens issues as a Mens Rights issue, on the following rationales:

Transmen are men. Their problems are ours.
Transwomen are discriminated against because they are perceived as men, and thus their problems are ours.

Because of this, and because of feminism being trans-inclusive too, I think that two seperate movements can safely operate without discriminating against transpersons.

Currently, men are being failed completely by the feminist movement. They need their own.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:08 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:The idea of making a composite ideology holding both MRM and liberal feminist viewpoints seems very attractive to me.


A composite ideology, certainly. But I think there is a need for seperate movements at this time, because of the hostility within the feminist movement to mens rights in general.
In a decade or so, perhaps that will change.

I will have to keep a watchful eye on both movements and if the MRM ends up as corrupted as feminism, the 3rd way will become far more successful at prying moderates from both sides.
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Postby Hirota » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:09 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:A composite ideology, certainly. But I think there is a need for seperate movements at this time, because of the hostility within the feminist movement to mens rights in general.
In a decade or so, perhaps that will change.
In fairness, I think that hostility can run both ways.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:13 am

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
A composite ideology, certainly. But I think there is a need for seperate movements at this time, because of the hostility within the feminist movement to mens rights in general.
In a decade or so, perhaps that will change.

I will have to keep a watchful eye on both movements and if the MRM ends up as corrupted as feminism, the 3rd way will become far more successful at prying moderates from both sides.


I think the MRM will manage to avoid those pitfalls, because it's a topic that has been extensively covered in MRM forums.
(I.E, just what the fuck happened to feminism.)
We will be aware and resistant to falling to corporate lobbying interests and ideological frames of reference to justify bigotry.

Crucial to avoiding that is our acceptance of the concepts of Gyno and Andro centrism.

While the MRM is androcentric and admits as much, they perceive it as only part of the solution. More moderate MRMs with a keen interest in womens rights too will frequently flip perspectives when discussing issues. This, in my opinion, will prevent them becoming institutionally sexist, and may prevent as many of them becoming just plain old sexist as happened to the feminist movement and it's adherents.


Hirota wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:A composite ideology, certainly. But I think there is a need for seperate movements at this time, because of the hostility within the feminist movement to mens rights in general.
In a decade or so, perhaps that will change.
In fairness, I think that hostility can run both ways.



It does indeed. However, the MRM is hostile to feminism only in as far as it discriminates against men, or prevents action on mens issues.
The feminist movement is hostile to the MRM in general, as it poses an existential threat to the feminist movement.

The level of hostility between the movements has escalated. I personally am of the opinion that third wave feminism must be destroyed entirely as a political force before progress can be made, but that is a minority viewpoint.
Most would prefer it to capitulate and cede mens issues to the mens rights movement, while backing off on their attacks. It's due to my suspicion that this will never happen that I think the movement must be destroyed instead.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:18 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Galloism » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:27 am

Full disclosure: my perspective comes from statistics and trends in the United States. It may not be applicable world wide or even fully first world.

If I had to pick a direction, which would be ironic for them to ask me given I don't identify with them, but you asked so...

I'd say the general blindness regarding male victims of domestic violence and rape is issue number one. We know that among adults in the US, men and women are raped at nearly equal rates. We find the same in domestic violence.

And yet, on the data available, male victims of DV are more likely to be arrested than female perpetrators, and female rapists, despite making up a significant number of survey reports (although not the majority), are almost never arrested.

That's shameful.

Issue number two would probably be the gender gap in conviction/sentencing, although that's closely related with issue 1.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:35 am

I'll throw up a new and mildly interesting one:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/13/172

Male Doctors are two and a half times as likely to be sued for medical malpractice.

I figure this one is worth discussing because of how murky it is.

Personally, I think this is a result of a combination of factors:

1. Men are more likely to go into expert specializations, which afford more opportunities for something to go wrong in the first place.
2. Due to expert specializations, they are likely to be perceived as more competent, and this may result in a feeling of betrayal in the patient if something goes wrong.
3. In general, Men are more likely to have legal action taken out against them.
4. Malcolm Gladwells "Blink" suggests that communication is a larger factor in whether a doctor is sued than malpractice, in conjunction with the women are wonderful effect, this means Women will get sued less because of bias in favor of women present in both sexes.
http://www.malpracticeinsuranceagency.c ... -gladwell/
5. Further on the communication point, discrimination against men displaying emotion or nurturing traits may prevent male doctors from seeming properly sympathetic to patients.

An interesting comment by the way:
I work at a specialist referral clinic with about 150 doctors on our roster. Whenever a male doctor goes in with a female patient, there is always a female chaperone. I've not once seen someone request a male chaperone for a female doctor however.


This suggests the malpractice suits are not likely to be sexual in nature.

Galloism wrote:Full disclosure: my perspective comes from statistics and trends in the United States. It may not be applicable world wide or even fully first world.

If I had to pick a direction, which would be ironic for them to ask me given I don't identify with them, but you asked so...

I'd say the general blindness regarding male victims of domestic violence and rape is issue number one. We know that among adults in the US, men and women are raped at nearly equal rates. We find the same in domestic violence.

And yet, on the data available, male victims of DV are more likely to be arrested than female perpetrators, and female rapists, despite making up a significant number of survey reports (although not the majority), are almost never arrested.

That's shameful.

Issue number two would probably be the gender gap in conviction/sentencing, although that's closely related with issue 1.


I'd agree with all that. We need a campaign to alert people to this problem, the MRM has done a lot of good on that, but more can be done.
I would also say that the criminal justice system bias against men is the number one issue. I think that ties in to your number one of rape/DV, or well, they tie into eachother.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Val Halla » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:38 am

I think that feminists and MRAs should work together, so we can work on the inequalities that face men, and the inequalities that face women. :)
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:40 am

Val Halla wrote:I think that feminists and MRAs should work together, so we can work on the inequalities that face men, and the inequalities that face women. :)

I agree but then it means the more radical aspects particularly within feminism would need a change of mind.
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Postby Oneracon » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:40 am

While I completely support the aim of men's advocacy movements, the issues found in many of the so-called "MRA" groups needs to be addressed. Much as extremists within contemporary feminist movements have views which are considered abhorrent to the mainstream (i.e. TERFs), there are extremists within MRA movements. To assume that the latter group will simply avoid the pitfalls of the former is not realistic.

That being said, when groups that advocate for men (even those classified as MRA) actually accomplish positive things it can give a more public positive perception.
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