New U.S. Healthcare Reform, No New Business for Insurance Co

[Grave_n_idle]

I've told you you are not, and I'm asking you to remove your flamebait sig for a second time now.

Take it to the mods then. If they say so, I'll remove it.

...

Thanks for not adding to the situation.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

This thread has really angered me. I don't think anybody knows shit, everyone just makes cliché arguments or just obnoxious crap, on both sides. Does anybody know what communism actually is?

Is it a sparkling beverage?

[The Cat-Tribe]

Hm, failed attempt at insult. I love it. You'd be surprised how many of those you get being a Conservative

Also, I don't consider Europe a socialist continent, a liberal hell hole, but socialist no.

I wouldn't be surprised at all -- especially if you're a conservative so incapable of supporting your own position that you cannot even present it without scaffolding it 'round with logical fallacies. Latest example, above: No True Scotsman, in which you attempt to dismiss evidence against you by claiming that said evidence doesn't fall within your claimed sample group. You don't get to define "socialism" narrowly just so it will fit your argument. The nations named all implement socialist systems, especially in regards to health care, and none of them has been or is being destroyed by it. Your claim falls flat.

Goddammit! Don't you liberals get it?

If Obama does something that even leans toward what European countries do regarding health care, then that is EBIL SOCIALISM!!!

EBIL SOCIALISM = anything we don't like the U.S. liberals talking about.

[No true scotsman]

Hm, failed attempt at insult. I love it. You'd be surprised how many of those you get being a Conservative

Also, I don't consider Europe a socialist continent, a liberal hell hole, but socialist no.

I wouldn't be surprised at all -- especially if you're a conservative so incapable of supporting your own position that you cannot even present it without scaffolding it 'round with logical fallacies. Latest example, above: No True Scotsman, in which you attempt to dismiss evidence against you by claiming that said evidence doesn't fall within your claimed sample group. You don't get to define "socialism" narrowly just so it will fit your argument. The nations named all implement socialist systems, especially in regards to health care, and none of them has been or is being destroyed by it. Your claim falls flat.

I approve this message.

[Muravyets]

Goddammit! Don't you liberals get it?

If Obama does something that even leans toward what European countries do regarding health care, then that is EBIL SOCIALISM!!!

EBIL SOCIALISM = anything we don't like the U.S. liberals talking about.

Well, in that case, my liberal heart bleeds for the poor rightwingers who must suffer terribly, since we won't shut up. No, seriously, it's bleeding -- I'm a bleeding-heart liberal. That's what that means.

[Muravyets]

I approve this message.

You're like Candyman.

Or a bad penny.

Or something.

[Grave_n_idle]

I approve this message.

You're like Candyman.

Or a bad penny.

Or something.

You must have said something three times, or something...

[Ostronopolis]

Hm, failed attempt at insult. I love it. You'd be surprised how many of those you get being a Conservative

Also, I don't consider Europe a socialist continent, a liberal hell hole, but socialist no.

I wouldn't be surprised at all -- especially if you're a conservative so incapable of supporting your own position that you cannot even present it without scaffolding it 'round with logical fallacies. Latest example, above: No True Scotsman, in which you attempt to dismiss evidence against you by claiming that said evidence doesn't fall within your claimed sample group. You don't get to define "socialism" narrowly just so it will fit your argument. The nations named all implement socialist systems, especially in regards to health care, and none of them has been or is being destroyed by it. Your claim falls flat.

Actually all of them are quite real, but it's yours and everyone else's right to deny them. But personally, I really don't have the time nor patience to hunt down the couple hundred articles of proof, just so you and everyone else who disagrees with me, to go 'GOP PROPAGANDA!'.

Anyway, this thread is more pissing me off than anything else, and life it really too short, so I'm done with it.

[Liliya]

All I know is, where ever government gets involved, costs rise, and quality falls. We need less government, not more, and that includes healthcare. What we have now, is not a free market system, but a corporate and government bureaucracy which is responsible for inflating health care costs by 60-80%. If you can get government out of this, you can lower costs by 60-80%. That's the first, and most important step. Another thing is, about a third of the uninsured make $50,000 or more per year. They can get their own healthcare or go broke without it if they get very sick. Their choice. 10 million of the uninsured mentioned are illegal immigrants. Why the fuck should my tax money go to provide healthcare for law breakers? In any case, the free market is the solution. The reason healthcare costs are rising so fast is government. The free market on the other hand lowers costs. Look at the electronics and computer industries. Despite inflation, costs are going down. You can get a computer that is 5 times more powerful, yet 2 times cheaper today compared to five years ago. That is what the ingenuity and innovation of the free market can accomplish. Why do we restrict insurance companies from providing service in all states? We need MORE competition not less. Let them compete. Obama's plan is horrible. No, it will not bankrupt the country, but it will be very costly. It is an absolutely idiotic idea. No question about that. You all have a duty to contact your representatives and urge them to vote against this horrible legislation. Yes a duty as Americans.

[Muravyets]

Actually all of them are quite real,

Real claims, yes. Real facts? Not so much, or surely, you would be able to back them up.

but it's yours and everyone else's right to deny them. But personally, I really don't have the time nor patience to hunt down the couple hundred articles of proof, just so you and everyone else who disagrees with me, to go 'GOP PROPAGANDA!'.

Anyway, this thread is more pissing me off than anything else, and life it really too short, so I'm done with it.

Probably a wise choice, if you don't enjoy being wrong in public.

[EvilDarkMagicians]

All I know is, where ever government gets involved, costs rise, and quality falls. We need less government, not more, and that includes healthcare. What we have now, is not a free market system, but a corporate and government bureaucracy which is responsible for inflating health care costs by 60-80%. If you can get government out of this, you can lower costs by 60-80%. That's the first, and most important step. Another thing is, about a third of the uninsured make $50,000 or more per year. They can get their own healthcare or go broke without it if they get very sick. Their choice. 10 million of the uninsured mentioned are illegal immigrants. Why the fuck should my tax money go to provide healthcare for law breakers? In any case, the free market is the solution. The reason healthcare costs are rising so fast is government. The free market on the other hand lowers costs. Look at the electronics and computer industries. Despite inflation, costs are going down. You can get a computer that is 5 times more powerful, yet 2 times cheaper today compared to five years ago. That is what the ingenuity and innovation of the free market can accomplish. Why do we restrict insurance companies from providing service in all states? We need MORE competition not less. Let them compete. Obama's plan is horrible. No, it will not bankrupt the country, but it will be very costly. It is an absolutely idiotic idea. No question about that. You all have a duty to contact your representatives and urge them to vote against this horrible legislation. Yes a duty as Americans.

Are you saying my NHS in the U.K is bad.....?

[The Cat-Tribe]

Hm, failed attempt at insult. I love it. You'd be surprised how many of those you get being a Conservative

Also, I don't consider Europe a socialist continent, a liberal hell hole, but socialist no.

I wouldn't be surprised at all -- especially if you're a conservative so incapable of supporting your own position that you cannot even present it without scaffolding it 'round with logical fallacies. Latest example, above: No True Scotsman, in which you attempt to dismiss evidence against you by claiming that said evidence doesn't fall within your claimed sample group. You don't get to define "socialism" narrowly just so it will fit your argument. The nations named all implement socialist systems, especially in regards to health care, and none of them has been or is being destroyed by it. Your claim falls flat.

Actually all of them are quite real, but it's yours and everyone else's right to deny them. But personally, I really don't have the time nor patience to hunt down the couple hundred articles of proof, just so you and everyone else who disagrees with me, to go 'GOP PROPAGANDA!'.

Anyway, this thread is more pissing me off than anything else, and life it really too short, so I'm done with it.

This thread should piss you off, as the OP is a lie. Oddly, that isn't the part that bothers you ...

[Maurepas]

*phew*

the commie thing doesnt seem to be scaring as many people as it used to. i guess dying from lack of care is more scary today than communism.

Idk, my first thought after reading that was this guy:



Giving a Proctology Exam....And thats pretty scary, if I do say so myself, ...

[Ashmoria]

All I know is, where ever government gets involved, costs rise, and quality falls. We need less government, not more, and that includes healthcare. What we have now, is not a free market system, but a corporate and government bureaucracy which is responsible for inflating health care costs by 60-80%. If you can get government out of this, you can lower costs by 60-80%. That's the first, and most important step. Another thing is, about a third of the uninsured make $50,000 or more per year. They can get their own healthcare or go broke without it if they get very sick. Their choice. 10 million of the uninsured mentioned are illegal immigrants. Why the fuck should my tax money go to provide healthcare for law breakers? In any case, the free market is the solution. The reason healthcare costs are rising so fast is government. The free market on the other hand lowers costs. Look at the electronics and computer industries. Despite inflation, costs are going down. You can get a computer that is 5 times more powerful, yet 2 times cheaper today compared to five years ago. That is what the ingenuity and innovation of the free market can accomplish. Why do we restrict insurance companies from providing service in all states? We need MORE competition not less. Let them compete. Obama's plan is horrible. No, it will not bankrupt the country, but it will be very costly. It is an absolutely idiotic idea. No question about that. You all have a duty to contact your representatives and urge them to vote against this horrible legislation. Yes a duty as Americans.

i think you need to be more specific in your criticism. exactly HOW is the government making health care more expensive? exactly HOW can the free market--that is in effect right now--make health care cheaper? and how can insurance be reined in if not by government intervention? the free market isnt reducing insurance premiums today, how are you going to get them in-line tomorrow?

[Muravyets]

All I know is, where ever government gets involved, costs rise, and quality falls. We need less government, not more, and that includes healthcare. What we have now, is not a free market system, but a corporate and government bureaucracy which is responsible for inflating health care costs by 60-80%. If you can get government out of this, you can lower costs by 60-80%. That's the first, and most important step. Another thing is, about a third of the uninsured make $50,000 or more per year. They can get their own healthcare or go broke without it if they get very sick. Their choice. 10 million of the uninsured mentioned are illegal immigrants. Why the fuck should my tax money go to provide healthcare for law breakers? In any case, the free market is the solution. The reason healthcare costs are rising so fast is government. The free market on the other hand lowers costs. Look at the electronics and computer industries. Despite inflation, costs are going down. You can get a computer that is 5 times more powerful, yet 2 times cheaper today compared to five years ago. That is what the ingenuity and innovation of the free market can accomplish. Why do we restrict insurance companies from providing service in all states? We need MORE competition not less. Let them compete. Obama's plan is horrible. No, it will not bankrupt the country, but it will be very costly. It is an absolutely idiotic idea. No question about that. You all have a duty to contact your representatives and urge them to vote against this horrible legislation. Yes a duty as Americans.

I would like to bag this specimen for the Museum of Cognitive Dissonance. The majority of the assertions of fact in the above post is actually the opposite of what we have observed to happen in reality, and the rest are completely made up. Amazing.

[Les Drapeaux Brulants]

"The article you requested is not available."

More GOP scare tactics. "National healthcare will kill America!" Nevermind that it hasn't killed insurance in any other country than Canada, and Canada took it to the extreme of outlawing private insurance which no Democrat is proposing.

Thank you for regurgitating Rush Limbaugh for us again, but we're still not buying it.

So go and read the bill. It's on page 16 and it does seem to say exactly what the IBD says it said... http://bit.ly/nSL2A

One of the other things to worry about is the liberal (excuse me) use of the phrase "such sums" to authorize funding for things might cost anything...

Turns out there are an even dozen of them...
* p. 120, to cover the start up costs of the government health insurance option
* p. 300, to pay for a study on why Medicare costs vary around the nation
* p. 404, to pay for a section on "Ensuring Effective Communication In Medicare"
* p. 610, for a study of large intrastate chains of nursing facilities
* p. 864, to increase funding for Community Health Centers between 2013-2019
* p. 869, to fund the National Health Service Corps Program for 2013-2019
* p. 892, to increase money for the Public Health Investment Fund
* p. 897, more on funding for the Public Health Investment Fund
* p. 931, "such sums" to fund a cryptic reference to public health law
* p. 1001, money to fund School Based Health Clinics for 2011-2014
* p. 1006, to fund the National Medical Device Registry
* p. 1018, to fund Grant Programs to Provide Education to Nurses

Remember, this is additional money not called out for when the bill is passed. Anyone who complains that health care in the US is inefficient because it costs a lot hasn't seen anything, yet. This promises to be the most costly program ever devised. One trillion? Hah, try 3 or 4 or 5 trillion.

[The Cat-Tribe]

"The article you requested is not available."

More GOP scare tactics. "National healthcare will kill America!" Nevermind that it hasn't killed insurance in any other country than Canada, and Canada took it to the extreme of outlawing private insurance which no Democrat is proposing.

Thank you for regurgitating Rush Limbaugh for us again, but we're still not buying it.

So go and read the bill. It's on page 16 and it does seem to say exactly what the IBD says it said... http://bit.ly/nSL2A

If you've read the bill, perhaps you can explain how the quote on Page 16 MEANS what the IBD alleges.

Hint: it doesn't.

[Ashmoria]

"The article you requested is not available."

More GOP scare tactics. "National healthcare will kill America!" Nevermind that it hasn't killed insurance in any other country than Canada, and Canada took it to the extreme of outlawing private insurance which no Democrat is proposing.

Thank you for regurgitating Rush Limbaugh for us again, but we're still not buying it.

So go and read the bill. It's on page 16 and it does seem to say exactly what the IBD says it said... http://bit.ly/nSL2A

One of the other things to worry about is the liberal (excuse me) use of the phrase "such sums" to authorize funding for things might cost anything...

Turns out there are an even dozen of them...
* p. 120, to cover the start up costs of the government health insurance option
* p. 300, to pay for a study on why Medicare costs vary around the nation
* p. 404, to pay for a section on "Ensuring Effective Communication In Medicare"
* p. 610, for a study of large intrastate chains of nursing facilities
* p. 864, to increase funding for Community Health Centers between 2013-2019
* p. 869, to fund the National Health Service Corps Program for 2013-2019
* p. 892, to increase money for the Public Health Investment Fund
* p. 897, more on funding for the Public Health Investment Fund
* p. 931, "such sums" to fund a cryptic reference to public health law
* p. 1001, money to fund School Based Health Clinics for 2011-2014
* p. 1006, to fund the National Medical Device Registry
* p. 1018, to fund Grant Programs to Provide Education to Nurses

Remember, this is additional money not called out for when the bill is passed. Anyone who complains that health care in the US is inefficient because it costs a lot hasn't seen anything, yet. This promises to be the most costly program ever devised. One trillion? Hah, try 3 or 4 or 5 trillion.

did YOU read the relevant section of the bill? look at the section is it in. think about it. report back.

do you think that these "such sums" add up to a huge amount of money?

[Les Drapeaux Brulants]

I would like to bag this specimen for the Museum of Cognitive Dissonance. The majority of the assertions of fact in the above post is actually the opposite of what we have observed to happen in reality, and the rest are completely made up. Amazing.

Come on... Wake up. Even the Europeans are worried about the "exploding" US debt.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/71520770-4a2c ... abdc0.html

Nothing in this bill is going to help assuage those concerns.

[Maurepas]

I would like to bag this specimen for the Museum of Cognitive Dissonance. The majority of the assertions of fact in the above post is actually the opposite of what we have observed to happen in reality, and the rest are completely made up. Amazing.

Come on... Wake up. Even the Europeans are worried about the "exploding" US debt.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/71520770-4a2c ... abdc0.html

Nothing in this bill is going to help assuage those concerns.

and leaving it the way it is would only worsen them...

[Sibirsky]

I can't wait to see how much America is in debt in a few years.

I can give you a range. In 5 years $18-$20 trillion. In 10 years $30-$36 trillion. Assuming the whole thing doesn't collapse before then.

[Grave_n_idle]

I can't wait to see how much America is in debt in a few years.

I can give you a range. In 5 years $18-$20 trillion. In 10 years $30-$36 trillion. Assuming the whole thing doesn't collapse before then.

I can give you a range. In 5 years, we'll have a profit of $20 trillion. In 10 years, a profit of $900 trillion.

[Sibirsky]

I can't wait to see how much America is in debt in a few years.

I can give you a range. In 5 years $18-$20 trillion. In 10 years $30-$36 trillion. Assuming the whole thing doesn't collapse before then.

I can give you a range. In 5 years, we'll have a profit of $20 trillion. In 10 years, a profit of $900 trillion.

Profit? From what? The government will have these astronomical profits?

[Maurepas]

I can't wait to see how much America is in debt in a few years.

I can give you a range. In 5 years $18-$20 trillion. In 10 years $30-$36 trillion. Assuming the whole thing doesn't collapse before then.

I can give you a range. In 5 years, we'll have a profit of $20 trillion. In 10 years, a profit of $900 trillion.

Hmm...I think Ill stick with GnI on this one...

Makes me think of when me and a few friends got on an elevator, we looked at it and it said, "7 persons or 2000lbs maximum weight"...We looked at eachother and went "Lets stick with the 7 persons"

[Muravyets]

I would like to bag this specimen for the Museum of Cognitive Dissonance. The majority of the assertions of fact in the above post is actually the opposite of what we have observed to happen in reality, and the rest are completely made up. Amazing.

Come on... Wake up. Even the Europeans are worried about the "exploding" US debt.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/71520770-4a2c ... abdc0.html

Nothing in this bill is going to help assuage those concerns.

Are you under the impression that the current system isn't already exploding both personal and public debt all over the place?