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[TWI Only] Supreme Court of The Western Isles

Where nations come together and discuss matters of varying degrees of importance. [In character]

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Bhumidol
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 372
Founded: Jun 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Bhumidol » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:29 pm

I am of the opinion that the Omnibus precedent should NOT be overturned. The purpose of such a precedent ensures that legislation that enters into the Supreme Court is refined, concise, and less ambiguous. Overturning such an important cornerstone for the Constitutional Reform Amendment, though appearing to be necessary, is in reality an unnecessary move that endangers future corruption and possible deterioration of regional administration.

A simple solution is to go around the Omnibus precedent. This can be done to change the Constitutional Reform Amendment to only contain a provision for a constitutional convention that considers the changes wrought in by the current C.R.A. This method makes legislation with a concise purpose (establishing a C.R.A. to consider changing the constition), and avoids controversy by being too broad on an issue which, though necessitating broadness, is inappropriate for conventional judicial/governmental procedure.
Words do not mean, they act...

Nothing -- When one is for nothing, all the troubles of the mind inherited from the world fall away, and a concise consciousness will give you everything you wish for...

Nothing -- For if one is against nothing, there exist no enemy to subjugate, but only an infinite number of friends which right logic must sublimate...

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Linaviar
Diplomat
 
Posts: 666
Founded: Apr 10, 2015
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Linaviar » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:47 pm

Bhumidol wrote:I am of the opinion that the Omnibus precedent should NOT be overturned. The purpose of such a precedent ensures that legislation that enters into the Supreme Court is refined, concise, and less ambiguous. Overturning such an important cornerstone for the Constitutional Reform Amendment, though appearing to be necessary, is in reality an unnecessary move that endangers future corruption and possible deterioration of regional administration.

A simple solution is to go around the Omnibus precedent. This can be done to change the Constitutional Reform Amendment to only contain a provision for a constitutional convention that considers the changes wrought in by the current C.R.A. This method makes legislation with a concise purpose (establishing a C.R.A. to consider changing the constition), and avoids controversy by being too broad on an issue which, though necessitating broadness, is inappropriate for conventional judicial/governmental procedure.

Then the Omnibus precedent is upheld in a controversial 2-3 vote for its abolition. A changing of the C.R.A. into a bill calling for a convention is also, in my opinion, drastic enough a change that the end result would be considered another piece of legislation entirely, and would therefore need to be moved to the bottom of the docket with a re-submission. Noting these points, I feel as though debate on the amendment at hand should come to a close. I therefore make a motion to move directly to voting on the legislation at hand, and submit my opinion as NAY in regards to the passage of the legislation. As Dibeg had put in his opinion on the legislation prior to his resignation, the vote currently stands at 0-2
Last edited by Linaviar on Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's Linavian, not Linaviarian
Former Chief Justice and Proud Member of The Western Isles

Some fitting quotes...
"Despite being the flag master, you have an avant-garde TV test pattern hanging off every pole in the realm." - Miklania
"the lin-guist appears" - Ainslie

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The Pacific Peace Union
Diplomat
 
Posts: 693
Founded: Jun 01, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby The Pacific Peace Union » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:57 pm

NAY
♔ Secretary of Information, AKA the Honorable Information God of The Western Isles
Winner of The Western Isles' Presidential Award
Former Justice of The Western Isles
✮ Child of Monsanto ✮
♦ I'm With Hillary ♦

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Bhumidol
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 372
Founded: Jun 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Bhumidol » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:05 pm

As I have stated before, this legislation can be streamlined by calling on a constitutional convention to consider the changes given in the author's amendment. Therefore, I deposit a NAY vote, but do note to the author, Tuernia, that this legislation will not be unconstitutional if streamlined in the aforementioned way.
Last edited by Bhumidol on Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Words do not mean, they act...

Nothing -- When one is for nothing, all the troubles of the mind inherited from the world fall away, and a concise consciousness will give you everything you wish for...

Nothing -- For if one is against nothing, there exist no enemy to subjugate, but only an infinite number of friends which right logic must sublimate...

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Vancouvia
Minister
 
Posts: 3043
Founded: Sep 19, 2014
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Vancouvia » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:07 pm

As you know, the Convention will occur and we will likely finalize on a draft within the week. It is in my opinion that the final draft resulting from that Convention should go directly to a regional vote, bypassing this court, as there is no stipulation that the court must rule in favor of a new Constitution, nor would it be appropriate.

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Linaviar
Diplomat
 
Posts: 666
Founded: Apr 10, 2015
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Linaviar » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:18 pm

After a quick confirmation from PPU, that vote is against the legislation itself. The legislation now stands at 0-3 and can be counted as DENIED. As the most articulate of the members of the court who voted against the omnibus precedent, I suggest that Bhumdiol write the majority opinion for this decision. If he is unable then Cottoria will hold that duty. I, for one, will be writing a concurring opinion on the matter, as while I agree that the bill falls afoul of precedent I also disagree with the precedent that was upheld.
It's Linavian, not Linaviarian
Former Chief Justice and Proud Member of The Western Isles

Some fitting quotes...
"Despite being the flag master, you have an avant-garde TV test pattern hanging off every pole in the realm." - Miklania
"the lin-guist appears" - Ainslie

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Linaviar
Diplomat
 
Posts: 666
Founded: Apr 10, 2015
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Linaviar » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:19 pm

Irrelevant
Last edited by Linaviar on Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's Linavian, not Linaviarian
Former Chief Justice and Proud Member of The Western Isles

Some fitting quotes...
"Despite being the flag master, you have an avant-garde TV test pattern hanging off every pole in the realm." - Miklania
"the lin-guist appears" - Ainslie

User avatar
Vancouvia
Minister
 
Posts: 3043
Founded: Sep 19, 2014
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Vancouvia » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:24 pm

"Deleted"
Last edited by Vancouvia on Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Great-Imperialonia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 354
Founded: Feb 05, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great-Imperialonia » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:22 am

I have got another proposal for you.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=gre ... /id=443205

Thank you!
Proud member of The Western Isles

Former Secretary of Defence of The Western Isles
Former Senator of The Western Isles

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Wildelyn
Envoy
 
Posts: 322
Founded: May 16, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Wildelyn » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:51 pm

I would like to purpose the Social Justice Protocol, It focuses on the aspects of Social Justice in the Region and Fair Trial.


http://www.nationstates.net/nation=wild ... /id=447127

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Linaviar
Diplomat
 
Posts: 666
Founded: Apr 10, 2015
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Linaviar » Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:22 pm

Wildelyn wrote:I would like to purpose the Social Justice Protocol, It focuses on the aspects of Social Justice in the Region and Fair Trial.


http://www.nationstates.net/nation=wild ... /id=447127
Great-Imperialonia wrote:I have got another proposal for you.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=gre ... /id=443205

Thank you!

Added to the docket. On another note, I'm somewhat surprised that the court hasn't done anything in the past week. I'm putting up the opening template for the next item as soon as the docket additions are dealt with, prepare to resume your duties justices.
It's Linavian, not Linaviarian
Former Chief Justice and Proud Member of The Western Isles

Some fitting quotes...
"Despite being the flag master, you have an avant-garde TV test pattern hanging off every pole in the realm." - Miklania
"the lin-guist appears" - Ainslie

User avatar
Linaviar
Diplomat
 
Posts: 666
Founded: Apr 10, 2015
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Linaviar » Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:50 pm

A quick note: Due to the lack of a formal submission of vote on the CRA from Bhumidol or Cottoria, I'm putting their votes down as an ABSTAIN for the mean time. If either wishes to change this I suggest for them to use the following template in their opening arguments on this legislation.
Code: Select all
[box][b]CRA Vote:[/b] [color=green]AYE[/color]/[color=red]NAY[/color][/box]

With that out of the way, on to business.



Proposed: Ministers
Legislation Proposed by: Great-Imperialonia
Purpose: To extend the Executive Branch by proving officers with elected assistants.

Text at time of posting

APPRECIATING the work from so many nations to make this region better than before.

NOTING that is it difficult for an secretary to fulfill his/her duties because of less regional support.

HOPING to improve the regional political system.

WISHING to extend the executive branch to make it more easily for the secreatary's to fulfil his/her duties.




What is this amendment going to change?

Because it is difficult for a secretary to do his/her job, there needs to be a change. This change makes it possible to extend the branch.
This law makes every secretary (for example) the secretary of exterior a minister so (for example) minister of exterior.
But a title isn't making jobs more easily. That is why every ministers gets an assistant. The assisent gets the title "secretary". For example (minister of exterior has a secretary of exterior).
it will look like this:

Executive branch

President:
Vice President:
Minister of defence:
Secretary of defence:
Minister of interior:
Secretary of interior:
Minister of exterior:
Secretary of exterior:

What are the duties of a secretary?

The duties of the secretary are:

- helping the minister with his dutie
- sending reports to his minister
- controlling the minister
- take over the duties in abcence of the minister

How will this influence the elections?

There will be elections for the secreatry's position. Normal elections like there were for ministers. The only difference is that when an minister steps down, the secretary automatically gets the position of minister and there are elections for his new secretary.
FOR EXAMPLE in steps:

1. The minister of exterior steps down.
2. The secretary of exterior automatically becomes minister.
3. There are elections for a new secretary.



The proposed legislation is hereby open for debate
It's Linavian, not Linaviarian
Former Chief Justice and Proud Member of The Western Isles

Some fitting quotes...
"Despite being the flag master, you have an avant-garde TV test pattern hanging off every pole in the realm." - Miklania
"the lin-guist appears" - Ainslie

User avatar
The Pacific Peace Union
Diplomat
 
Posts: 693
Founded: Jun 01, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby The Pacific Peace Union » Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:03 pm

Firstly I am concerned with the last part of the legislation which says:

"How will this influence the elections?

There will be elections for the secreatry's position. Normal elections like there were for ministers. The only difference is that when an minister steps down, the secretary automatically gets the position of minister and there are elections for his new secretary.
FOR EXAMPLE in steps:"

This gives me the impression that "Ministers" cannot be challenged, since is states that elections will only be held for the Secretary's position if the minister steps down. The problem with that is it will allow the Minister and the Secretary to hold there positions for a lengthened amount of time, since the Minister is likely to refrain from resigning. In the constitution under re-elections it states:

"Any current non-officer can challenge a current officer for their position through an election. At this point any other non-officer, who was not the challenger, can also run for the position in the same election. Re-elections can only occur after the defending officer has spent a reasonable period of time in office, or the defending officer is inactive or otherwise clearly not fulfilling their duties."

This amendment is going against the italicized part since Ministers will be able to stay in office for more than a reasonable time but will still be able to avoid the challenge system. The Secretary is an even bigger issue since it will likely be a while till the Minister resigns, the Secretary will than by consequence also stay in office for a while. Than when the Minister does resign, the secretary will be promoted to Minister and extend his time being in office by an even larger margarin.
Last edited by The Pacific Peace Union on Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
♔ Secretary of Information, AKA the Honorable Information God of The Western Isles
Winner of The Western Isles' Presidential Award
Former Justice of The Western Isles
✮ Child of Monsanto ✮
♦ I'm With Hillary ♦

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Bhumidol
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 372
Founded: Jun 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Bhumidol » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:37 pm

The Pacific Peace Union wrote:Firstly I am concerned with the last part of the legislation which says:

"How will this influence the elections?

There will be elections for the secreatry's position. Normal elections like there were for ministers. The only difference is that when an minister steps down, the secretary automatically gets the position of minister and there are elections for his new secretary.
FOR EXAMPLE in steps:"

This gives me the impression that "Ministers" cannot be challenged, since is states that elections will only be held for the Secretary's position if the minister steps down. The problem with that is it will allow the Minister and the Secretary to hold there positions for a lengthened amount of time, since the Minister is likely to refrain from resigning. In the constitution under re-elections it states:

"Any current non-officer can challenge a current officer for their position through an election. At this point any other non-officer, who was not the challenger, can also run for the position in the same election. Re-elections can only occur after the defending officer has spent a reasonable period of time in office, or the defending officer is inactive or otherwise clearly not fulfilling their duties."

This amendment is going against the italicized part since Ministers will be able to stay in office for more than a reasonable time but will still be able to avoid the challenge system. The Secretary is an even bigger issue since it will likely be a while till the Minister resigns, the Secretary will than by consequence also stay in office for a while. Than when the Minister does resign, the secretary will be promoted to Minister and extend his time being in office by an even larger margarin.


I understand the Justice's concern on what appears to be the loose wording of this amendment. It may also appear initially to be a logical fault, however, I would invite you to consider an important distinction.

Since the amendment does not explicitly contain words barring a Minister from being challenged, the current constitution remains supreme on the matter that, "Any current non-officer can challenge a current officer for their position through an election". This would mean that a non-officer could challenge the minister for his position, and replace him with the winning candidate, as opposed to the current secretary serving under him/her.

In other terms, because of the lack of wording on whether or not a minister may be challenged, the minister may be challenged as per the WI constitution, and the traditional procedure of election and replacement would be followed. Thus, because this amendment was silent on the matter of challenging a minister, it can be considered constitutional in this regard.

What does concern me however, is the wording under, "What are the duties of a secretary", which lists one such duty of the newly created secretary position to be, "controlling the minister", which appears to be vaguely worded duty, and could potentially pose application risks in terms of constitutionality.

I request that the author either remove this section within this article, or to elaborate on what, "controlling the minister", means, so that this duty's constitutionality may be validated by this court.
Last edited by Bhumidol on Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Words do not mean, they act...

Nothing -- When one is for nothing, all the troubles of the mind inherited from the world fall away, and a concise consciousness will give you everything you wish for...

Nothing -- For if one is against nothing, there exist no enemy to subjugate, but only an infinite number of friends which right logic must sublimate...

User avatar
The Pacific Peace Union
Diplomat
 
Posts: 693
Founded: Jun 01, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby The Pacific Peace Union » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:49 pm

Your concern regarding the secretary duties also concerned me. However due to other vaguely wording regarding the election process I still am confused on what the author has in mind and I request the author more specifically defines the election process regarding the Minister before I further elaborate this legislation.
Last edited by The Pacific Peace Union on Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
♔ Secretary of Information, AKA the Honorable Information God of The Western Isles
Winner of The Western Isles' Presidential Award
Former Justice of The Western Isles
✮ Child of Monsanto ✮
♦ I'm With Hillary ♦

User avatar
Great-Imperialonia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 354
Founded: Feb 05, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great-Imperialonia » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:18 am

The Pacific Peace Union wrote:Your concern regarding the secretary duties also concerned me. However due to other vaguely wording regarding the election process I still am confused on what the author has in mind and I request the author more specifically defines the election process regarding the Minister before I further elaborate this legislation.


Indeed, should have been more clear. What I mean is, the secretary can challenge his own Minister and th citizens can challenge the secretary. With this process is much simpler to do your job because you are not constantly threatend by nations who want you position.

And what I mean about controlling the minister, is more like if the minister is doing things wrong. You can tell him how he should do it in the right way. With this we also know that a minister can't use it's power for wrong things.
Last edited by Great-Imperialonia on Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Proud member of The Western Isles

Former Secretary of Defence of The Western Isles
Former Senator of The Western Isles

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Cottoria
Envoy
 
Posts: 224
Founded: Apr 22, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Cottoria » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:25 am

Am I the only one who sees this as point less?

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The Pacific Peace Union
Diplomat
 
Posts: 693
Founded: Jun 01, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby The Pacific Peace Union » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:14 am

I see this as pointless too but also, if only the secretary can challenge the minister, that is violating the election process and I will not pass it, unless the author clears up his wording and changes his intent for the elections.
Last edited by The Pacific Peace Union on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
♔ Secretary of Information, AKA the Honorable Information God of The Western Isles
Winner of The Western Isles' Presidential Award
Former Justice of The Western Isles
✮ Child of Monsanto ✮
♦ I'm With Hillary ♦

User avatar
Linaviar
Diplomat
 
Posts: 666
Founded: Apr 10, 2015
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Linaviar » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:57 am

I had at first thought that this was a bill that would simply add extra positions and responsibilities, but the intent of the author clearly violates Article V, Section I: "Any current non-officer can challenge a current officer for their position through an election." If this is one of the central stated goals of the amendment, than it cannot be allowed to pass. Unless Great-Imperialonia both reworks the wording and intent of this bill to allow for the direct challenging of ministers and clarifies Article II, Section III: "Controlling the Minister," it must be declared unconstitutional.

On another note, if these changes are made, I would also recommend that grammar and spelling be cleaned up and, while certainly less important, have the style of the amendment be modified to fit the format of the constitution.
It's Linavian, not Linaviarian
Former Chief Justice and Proud Member of The Western Isles

Some fitting quotes...
"Despite being the flag master, you have an avant-garde TV test pattern hanging off every pole in the realm." - Miklania
"the lin-guist appears" - Ainslie

User avatar
Great-Imperialonia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 354
Founded: Feb 05, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great-Imperialonia » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:05 pm

Linaviar wrote:I had at first thought that this was a bill that would simply add extra positions and responsibilities, but the intent of the author clearly violates Article V, Section I: "Any current non-officer can challenge a current officer for their position through an election." If this is one of the central stated goals of the amendment, than it cannot be allowed to pass. Unless Great-Imperialonia both reworks the wording and intent of this bill to allow for the direct challenging of ministers and clarifies Article II, Section III: "Controlling the Minister," it must be declared unconstitutional.

On another note, if these changes are made, I would also recommend that grammar and spelling be cleaned up and, while certainly less important, have the style of the amendment be modified to fit the format of the constitution.


Yes, but our region will have more places in the Executive branch, so more members in the region.
Proud member of The Western Isles

Former Secretary of Defence of The Western Isles
Former Senator of The Western Isles

User avatar
Linaviar
Diplomat
 
Posts: 666
Founded: Apr 10, 2015
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Linaviar » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:13 pm

Restrictions on speech by non-justices: you may only answer questions and post changed versions of your legislation. Besides, regardless of what advantages you believe that this bill brings it is unconstitutional so long as ministers are only capable of being challenged by secretaries; there is also the problem of the lack of clarity in the control section. Unless you wish to change the election system to allow for the free challenging of ministers by non-officers and clarify the control section I must oppose this bill.
It's Linavian, not Linaviarian
Former Chief Justice and Proud Member of The Western Isles

Some fitting quotes...
"Despite being the flag master, you have an avant-garde TV test pattern hanging off every pole in the realm." - Miklania
"the lin-guist appears" - Ainslie

User avatar
The Pacific Peace Union
Diplomat
 
Posts: 693
Founded: Jun 01, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby The Pacific Peace Union » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:06 pm

Great-Imperialonia wrote:
Yes, but our region will have more places in the Executive branch, so more members in the region.


I fail to see how adding more executive positions will add more members to the region. Will you please explain?
♔ Secretary of Information, AKA the Honorable Information God of The Western Isles
Winner of The Western Isles' Presidential Award
Former Justice of The Western Isles
✮ Child of Monsanto ✮
♦ I'm With Hillary ♦

User avatar
Bhumidol
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 372
Founded: Jun 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Bhumidol » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:19 pm

Vote from Bhumidol; I apologize for the lateness of my vote.

CRA Vote: NAY
Words do not mean, they act...

Nothing -- When one is for nothing, all the troubles of the mind inherited from the world fall away, and a concise consciousness will give you everything you wish for...

Nothing -- For if one is against nothing, there exist no enemy to subjugate, but only an infinite number of friends which right logic must sublimate...

User avatar
Linaviar
Diplomat
 
Posts: 666
Founded: Apr 10, 2015
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Linaviar » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:25 pm

Bhumidol wrote:Vote from Bhumidol; I apologize for the lateness of my vote.

CRA Vote: NAY

Updated, thanks for getting it in.
It's Linavian, not Linaviarian
Former Chief Justice and Proud Member of The Western Isles

Some fitting quotes...
"Despite being the flag master, you have an avant-garde TV test pattern hanging off every pole in the realm." - Miklania
"the lin-guist appears" - Ainslie

User avatar
Great-Imperialonia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 354
Founded: Feb 05, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great-Imperialonia » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:38 am

The Pacific Peace Union wrote:
Great-Imperialonia wrote:
Yes, but our region will have more places in the Executive branch, so more members in the region.


I fail to see how adding more executive positions will add more members to the region. Will you please explain?


Now you have positions for Secretary, and minister. And yes, of course you can't direclty challenge the minister. But double members in the Excecutive Branch, so more places and nations are attracted by more places so more nations will come to our region.
Proud member of The Western Isles

Former Secretary of Defence of The Western Isles
Former Senator of The Western Isles

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