The NationStates Feminist Thread

by **Swith Witherward** » Wed May 27, 2015 12:10 am

THE NATIONSTATES FEMINIST THREAD

Mission
This thread is dedicated to supporting feminism and the promotion of women's rights; it is a place to educate, uplift and nurture the younger generations.

Some topics you may encounter here are...

Some behaviors that will not be tolerated here are...

Links
I've provided a few links here. Please send a TG to me if you would like an organization listed, or if you have links to resource sites or other information. I'll add my own links cache within the next few days.

Let's set the tone for the thread.

Yes, I certainly am... although I don't invest much time into arguing those opinions online. The reason I volunteered to make this thread is twofold: I'm not heavily involved in the heated feminist discussions in NSG, and I'm known for my patience and fairness, ergo my motive is simply to promote feminism in its myriad of forms rather than to promote only my opinions on what feminism is or isn't.

One of the things we frequently see on forums is the disparagement of those that don't promote our particular principles. "You aren't a feminist if you don't embrace [fill in the flavor]." People form a conception of what we are and what we should believe without ever realizing that feminism is profoundly diverse.

Disagreements between feminists over principles are mostly due to that rich diversity within the feminist movement. People are welcome to promote their views here, by the way, provided they conform to NS policy. However, for the sake of this thread, we should endeavor to agree that we disagree on what exactly is the best principle and practice. We are not here to convert anyone to our specific approach to feminism. We are here to advocate women's rights and to support feminism in general. (er... no pun intended!)

A quick reminder: Moderation gave this thread the nod however our ability to keep it functioning rests on our shoulders. Please be civil towards one another.

Starting topic
By no means do we need to stick to this shallow topic. Let it evolve into deeper discussion.

Do you add a label to your own beliefs and, if so, do you find yourself frequently at odd with other feminists? Is it possible to simply be a feminist? Is it wrong to further designate ourselves by affixing a quantifier, thus dividing the overarching movement into neat little compartments that put us at odds with women and transwomen whom happen to hold different or opposing political, economic or social views?

(My own opinion: I myself am egalitarian at heart. I've been called a liberal feminist and socialist feminist, yet I'm not keen to embrace those labels. We're all facets of the same diamond but I believe we compromise the integrity of the stone when we chip too much away. Should I respect my conservative sisters any less simply because they're conservative? No.)

Updates

4 June 2015 update

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Two significant policy questions were embedded in the threadjacking report. As such, these questions needed the input and discussion of the entire NationStates Moderation Team. After significant deliberation, we are now ready to hand down our ruling.

The first question, which is a more general one, involves the limiting of a (group) thread to ONLY certain participants or points of view. It's our ruling that NSG threads cannot do this. You cannot make a group thread for whatever topic and then limit it to strictly pro (or anti) side. NSG is a discussion forum, threads are open to allow discussion, even if you don't happen to like that discussion. Just because someone posts disagreeing with the general trend of the topic that is not prima facia evidence of trolling. That said, there are (usually) obvious differences between one off posts of going into, say, the Christian thread and screaming "Christianity is STUPID!" and posting "I think Christianity is false, and here's why...". It might be anti-Christian, but it does allow the pro side to engage in discussion.

Indeed, if we may, we would like to point out that Swith Witherward's engagement of "The group of you seem very happy to tell each other what feminists do and do not believe. Perhaps it would be more prudent to ask us what we believe. You see, we're such a diverse group that we won't all agree, but at least you'll gain perspectives that run far deeper than your currently limited viewpoint." is exactly how we would like to see these threads work, kudos to her for that!

Going to the second question, was it trolling and/or threadjacking to post something anti-feminist? No. Using the above, we find that some of the posters in question, while posting an anti-spiel, stuck around to debate and argue. They engaged, which tells us that this is what should be happening in NSG's threads. It should be noted however that one involved player turned out to be Delete-On-Sight and so was dealt with on those grounds.

The thread is hereby unlocked. Thank you for your patience.

--The NationStates Moderation Team

*blushes at the compliment*

An excellent point was raised above. Once again, let's continue to strive to express things in a way that engages and encourages dialog.

Also... please don't hesitate to send links to resources. I'd love to add them to the OP.

14 August 2015 update
ATTENTION MRAs and MRA supporters: there is now a NS Mens Rights thread, a place to promote constructive and civil discussion on the issues facing men as as:

Please contact the OP, Hirota, for more information. Best of luck to him in his endeavor.

by **Highfort** » Wed May 27, 2015 12:29 am

Might as well begin this, since I'm not gonna get any work done:

I took the quiz and scored the following:

Liberal Feminist: 47
Women of Color: 38
Socialist Feminist: 24
Radical Feminist: 23
Conservative: 18
Cultural Feminist: 17

I personally do not accept the label of feminist and consider myself a gender and racial egalitarian. That's not to say I'm racially or gender-blind - I do consider the statistical differences between races and genders due to cultural and financial factors - but I don't support the advancement of some human rights over others. I think it tends to cause an imbalance which critics use to fuel counter-reform resentment (ex. whenever MRAs bring up points against feminism, they're usually talking about feminism not helping men). I think in the long run the best way to advocate for equal rights and freedoms is to advocate for all fronts. Leaving anyone out only alienates them later and forces them to build their own bloc - which may turn against what your own bloc has accomplished later.

by **Nazi Flower Power** » Wed May 27, 2015 12:54 am

I'm not a fan of having tons of different labels. By the time you get enough labels to have one for everyone, there are so many that nobody knows what they all mean anymore.

I consider myself a moderate feminist, since I support women's rights, but I don't go screaming from the rooftops ranting about "the patriarchy."

by **Czervenika** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:01 am

As a Marxist and also a woman I do find myself sympathetic to Marxist feminism. However, I rarely engage in feminist discussions online since they usually just degrade into people whining about "misandry" and such. I also tend to focus more heavily on class specific issues since I feel they more strongly affect my daily life than my gender does(for various reasons I may or may not elaborate on here).

by **Caltarania** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:01 am

There's a test for this?

Well, without taking it, I guess I fall roughly somewhere as a Marxist Feminist. That being said, I'd rather shy away from labels.

by **United Marxist Nations** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:03 am

This is what I got:

Perspective Score
Liberal feminist 44
Socialist feminist 42
Women of Color 35
Radical feminist 25
Conservative 16
Cultural feminist 10

I talk less about feminist issues, because I tend to think that the issue would be best solved through a socialist reorganization of society.

by **Czervenika** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:06 am

United Marxist Nations wrote:I talk less about feminist issues, because I tend to think that the issue would be best solved through a socialist reorganization of society.

That's largely what I think too, but I do acknowledge feminism since there are female specific issues just like there's POC specific issues, LGBT specific issues, etc.

by **Hirota** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:08 am

You missed Equity Feminism.

by **Reddogkeno101** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:10 am

So I did the test
Perspective Score
Liberal feminist 49
Women of Color 40
Socialist feminist 31
Radical feminist 29
Cultural feminist 27
Conservative 16

I support feminism and it's goals. It is truly a noble cause, and is something that should achieve it's goal in our lifetime.
Just not a fan of so called "Tumblr Feminists" who are radical feminists and take valar morghulis literally.

by **Czervenika** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:12 am

I still can't find this test :s.

by **Reddogkeno101** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:13 am

Czervenika wrote:I still can't find this test :s.

The Miscellaneous spoiler

by **Highfort** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:13 am

Czervenika wrote:I still can't find this test :s.

If you click under the Misc tab of the OP, you'll find the Feminist Perspective Scale, which is a quiz that ranks you on a small number of feminist groups through 60 questions.

by **Tiltjuice** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:15 am

Liberal feminist 37
Socialist feminist 21
Women of Color 21
Cultural feminist 19
Radical feminist 18
Conservative 12

As said elsewhere, the only form of feminism I'm genuinely versed in is cyborg feminism, and that only very shallowly (I wrote one paper on it for a GE writing class).

by **Dakini** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:18 am

I'm definitely a feminist. As for which kind I'm not sure. According to the quiz...

Perspective Score
Women of Color 45
Liberal feminist 43
Socialist feminist 37
Radical feminist 30
Cultural feminist 20
Conservative 13

I would definitely say I'm not a part of black feminism since I'm white and swooping in acting like I know exactly what women of colour should do is problematic (to say the least). I definitely understand that women of colour face different issues and I try to be educated about these issues as well as trying to be supportive. The liberal/socialist types seem a better fit though I'm not sure that any are especially perfect. I haven't really tried to put too fine a point on it.

At any rate, I definitely find myself at odds with other feminists sometimes, especially the TERFs because I'm not a transphobe (that's the shortest reasoning that wouldn't get into some "all X are Y" business) and the rare female separatist, but I don't generally consider them feminists even if that's what they want to call themselves.

*grumbles about formatting* This is what I get for trying to be fancy with tables.

by **Caltarania** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:20 am

Czervenika wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:I talk less about feminist issues, because I tend to think that the issue would be best solved through a socialist reorganization of society.

That's largely what I think too, but I do acknowledge feminism since there are female specific issues just like there's POC specific issues, LGBT specific issues, etc.

Ditto. Though with my being male I'm not sure if that's just my relative ignorance in regards to feminist issues tbh.

Reddogkeno101 wrote:Just not a fan of so called "Tumblr Feminists" who are radical feminists and take valar morghulis literally.

Same. "Tumblr Feminists" (though it should be said that not all feminists on Tumblr fall into this category, just the extremely radical ones) cause more problems than they help solve. Take gamergate for an example. It started off about gaming media being shitty, and then turned into an argument over white male dominance in gaming. Eventually, both of these perfectly legitimate causes were lost and it just became a fucking shit-flinging match which created enemies rather than solved problems. What makes it even worse is that both sides were/are different sides to the same coin.

Also, my results;

Liberal feminist 44
Socialist feminist 43
Women of Color 43
Radical feminist 31
Cultural feminist 29
Conservative 17

by **Russels Orbiting Teapot** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:22 am

I don't exactly call myself a feminist these days, but I support the vast majority of what most feminists fight for and I have a deep respect for the vast majority of feminist activists out there. I'm especially fond of the blog Love, Joy, Feminism.

On the other hand, there's an undertone in much of feminism that I've become uncomfortable with, which culminates in the idea that sexism can be redefined in such a way to exclude male victims. That's honestly been the major thing that pushed me out of identifying with the movement. How could I stand as part of a movement that has announced that it would not seek to protect me if I was the one wronged?

I know that many feminists are working against this, and I applaud them for it. I applaud the OP for acknowledging that misandry is a real thing. I wish I could be one of the feminists in this fight, but I feel that as a male my voice would be inherently unwelcome in attempts to directly reform feminism.

So I personally find myself somewhere in the middle, between the feminists and MRA's, trying to curb the tribalistic infighting and remind both sides that our real enemies are the traditionalists who want to enforce our gender roles upon us.

by **Caltarania** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:23 am

Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:I don't exactly call myself a feminist these days, but I support the vast majority of what most feminists fight for and I have a deep respect for the vast majority of feminist activists out there. I'm especially fond of the blog Love, Joy, Feminism.

On the other hand, there's an undertone in much of feminism that I've become uncomfortable with, which culminates in the idea that sexism can be redefined in such a way to exclude male victims. That's honestly been the major thing that pushed me out of identifying with the movement. How could I stand as part of a movement that has announced that it would not seek to protect me if I was the one wronged?

I know that many feminists are working against this, and I applaud them for it. I applaud the OP for acknowledging that misandry is a real thing. I wish I could be one of the feminists in this fight, but I feel that as a male my voice would be inherently unwelcome in attempts to directly reform feminism.

So I personally find myself somewhere in the middle, between the feminists and MRA's, trying to curb the tribalistic infighting and remind both sides that our real enemies are the traditionalists who want to enforce our gender roles upon us.

Hear, hear.

by **Dakini** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:29 am

Caltarania wrote:Take gamergate for an example. It started off about gaming media being shitty, and then turned into an argument over white male dominance in gaming. Eventually, both of these perfectly legitimate causes were lost and it just became a fucking shit-flinging match which created enemies rather than solved problems. What makes it even worse is that both sides were/are different sides to the same coin.

I'm pretty sure it started with some guy printing a bunch of lies about his ex which resulted in a whole barrage of harassment and stalking, but there's a different thread for that and it's pretty much bullshit anyway. Suffice to say both sides are not different sides of the same coin.

by **The Nuclear Fist** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:36 am

What if I want to talk about stopping abuse in general, and toppling gender roles in general, etc?

Is this inclusive in general or do I just go fuck myself then?

by **Sumshchyna** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:38 am

Dakini wrote:
Caltarania wrote:Take gamergate for an example. It started off about gaming media being shitty, and then turned into an argument over white male dominance in gaming. Eventually, both of these perfectly legitimate causes were lost and it just became a fucking shit-flinging match which created enemies rather than solved problems. What makes it even worse is that both sides were/are different sides to the same coin.

I'm pretty sure it started with some guy printing a bunch of lies about his ex which resulted in a whole barrage of harassment and stalking, but there's a different thread for that and it's pretty much bullshit anyway. Suffice to say both sides are not different sides of the same coin.

I wouldn't say it was lies. Plus the whole spam of similary-themed articles after the the whole think happened, which led to the discovery of the gmail game journalists list.

by **Dakini** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:40 am

Sumshchyna wrote:
Dakini wrote:I'm pretty sure it started with some guy printing a bunch of lies about his ex which resulted in a whole barrage of harassment and stalking, but there's a different thread for that and it's pretty much bullshit anyway. Suffice to say both sides are not different sides of the same coin.
I wouldn't say it was lies. Plus the whole spam of similary-themed articles after the the whole think happened, which led to the discovery of the gmail game journalists list.

1. The first article I linked describes various "embellishments" Eron Gjioni took to give his story a greater impact.
2. Seriously, let's not pollute this thread with this bullshit. There's enough of it in the other one.

by **Caltarania** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:42 am

Dakini wrote:2. Seriously, let's not pollute this thread with this bullshit. There's enough of it in the other one.

Ditto, let's just agree to disagree and move the fuck on.

by **Swith Witherward** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:44 am

Hirota wrote:You missed Equity Feminism.

I did indeed. I've added it to the list. Thank you!

Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:I don't exactly call myself a feminist these days, but I support the vast majority of what most feminists fight for and I have a deep respect for the vast majority of feminist activists out there. I'm especially fond of the blog Love, Joy, Feminism.

On the other hand, there's an undertone in much of feminism that I've become uncomfortable with, which culminates in the idea that sexism can be redefined in such a way to exclude male victims. That's honestly been the major thing that pushed me out of identifying with the movement. How could I stand as part of a movement that has announced that it would not seek to protect me if I was the one wronged?

I know that many feminists are working against this, and I applaud them for it. I applaud the OP for acknowledging that misandry is a real thing. I wish I could be one of the feminists in this fight, but I feel that as a male my voice would be inherently unwelcome in attempts to directly reform feminism.

So I personally find myself somewhere in the middle, between the feminists and MRA's, trying to curb the tribalistic infighting and remind both sides that our real enemies are the traditionalists who want to enforce our gender roles upon us.

There are so many excellent blogs out there. It will take me a while to weed through my own bookmarks, but "Love, Joy, Feminism" is on that list. I've added it here.

by **Czervenika** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:46 am

Reddogkeno101 wrote:
Czervenika wrote:I still can't find this test :s.

The Miscellaneous spoiler

Yea, found it right after I posted that comment. It's late and I'm tired, sorry xD.

by **Swith Witherward** » Wed May 27, 2015 1:48 am

A reminder: we do have a Gamergate, Feminisim, and Journalistic Ethics thread still open and active for the topic.

The NationStates Feminist Thread

The NationStates Feminist Thread

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