The Rejected Times

[RiderSyl]

I wonder if its because it's WA that gets everyone in a twist. Articles analyzing nation issues, population changes, embassy links, regional political systems etc don't nearly get as much a response.

You're absolutely correct.

[Onderkelkia]

One wonders how LKE ever amounted to much considering all the ignorance claims they regularly release. Onder claims to be ignorant of his former prime minister Athelstan MacGregor’s doings in NE—even though Athelstan MacGregor disclosed his NE affiliation in his LKE citizenship application and all over NE’s RMB and in the SC. Like Bob Moran, Athelstan MacGregor’s citizenship application conveniently disappeared.

We were unaware of his affiliation prior to our declaration of war on the Greater German Reich, when the issue arose.

Athelstan MacGregor's citizenship application has not "conveniently disappeared"; that is a pure lie. It will be in our citizenship applications thread.

It was made clear to Athelstan MacGregor that he could not continue to hold offices in the LKE while he had affiliation to Nazi Europe. Rather than leave NE, he preferred to retire from LKE life, until the LKE then invaded NE, upon which point he returned to declare his support for NE in a message to me renouncing his connections with us - had he not done so, his support for NE against deployed LKE forces would have led to his banning for treason.

This has no comparison to the Bob Moran case and there is no way we could have feasibly discovered Bob Moran's faking of manual recruitment telegrams.

Bob Moran's absence is troubling - essentially it appears that he has inflicted damage on the LKE, intentionally or not, and then cut and run when he knew it would be imminently exposed. Bob Moran's absence for the 5 days between the first suggestion that he had links to Anur-Sanur/Frak in this forum and Sedge's announcement deprived us of the chance to discuss his actions with him - so the announcement ultimately came as an unpleasant surprise.

[Arctriul]

I enjoyed the read as usual ^o^

[Victor Savage]

Bob didn't leave NS, he's busy with exams and hasn't been on.

[Onderkelkia]

Bob didn't leave NS, he's busy with exams and hasn't been on.

He hasn't been online on the LKE forums since the evening of 22nd April, the day of this announcement. He left no warning or explanation of his impending absence with anyone in the LKE. Then we learn from Sedge's announcement on 27th April that Bob Moran was running an illegal recruitment script.

It is therefore not unreasonable to infer that the events are connected, although equally I don't know his real life circumstances; possibly he decided dealing with the furore in the LKE and more generally would consume too much time. In any case, we have been seriously let down by the running of the script.

[Victor Savage]

Bob didn't leave NS, he's busy with exams and hasn't been on.

He hasn't been online on the LKE forums since the evening of 22nd April, the day of this announcement. He left no warning or explanation of his impending absence with anyone in the LKE. Then we learn from Sedge's announcement on 27th April that Bob Moran was running an illegal recruitment script.

It is therefore not unreasonable to infer that the events are connected, although equally I don't know his real life circumstances; possibly he decided dealing with the furore in the LKE and more generally would consume too much time. In any case, we have been seriously let down by the running of the script.

Now I'm not defending bob here, he got what he deserved but, I'm honest that he's too busy with exams. He may have decided this is too much to deal with right now, and took a break from NS, or he may just be too busy with exams. We'll see Friday, if he doesn't come back friday then we'll know he's not coming back.

[Christian Democrats]

Anti-Muslim Player Destroys Islam

COMMENTARY | CHRISTIAN DEMOCRATS, REPORTER

(Image)

That player, Oh My Days, was an anti-Muslim troll and a former delegate of Nazi Europe (the predecessor of Nazi Europa).

The guy who knows OMD better than anyone else in the game claims OMD doesn’t dig religion—period. I realize that’s not as sensational as the half-truths you reported, CD.

I could have guessed that he's anti-Jewish too, but how detailed did you want me to get?

OMD, an anti-Muslim, anti-Jewish, anti-Christian, anti-Hindu, anti-Buddhist, anti-Scientologist . . .

Islam natives worked for years to build up their religious and cultural community, all the while believing wrongly that Oh My Days had left for good.

For all intents and purposes, OMD ‘had left for good’.

But, obviously, he came back -- hence, the surprise to natives.

Iron Bark, however, is no normal founder. Upon rejoining Islam, he immediately ejected and banned the entire population -- more than 40 nations in all -- and, subsequently, claimed Islam as a protectorate for his home region, Nazi Europa.

Naturally, you failed to mention that I immediately cleared the ban list, unsuppressed posts and unlocked Islam after OMD had his fun and rode off into the sunset again. I’m not stopping any natives from returning.

I'm sooooo sure they'll come back now that they know the region could be destroyed again at any second.

Nice destruction image nonetheless.

Thank you.

[Captain Woodhouse]

Athelstan MacGregor's citizenship application has not "conveniently disappeared"; that is a pure lie.

If it's a pure lie, then prove me wrong and produce the application. I've looked everywhere but underneath your wig stand.

I could have guessed that he's anti-Jewish too, but how detailed did you want me to get?

OMD, an anti-Muslim, anti-Jewish, anti-Christian, anti-Hindu, anti-Buddhist, anti-Scientologist

You must be asking me how detailed I want you to get in your guesswork, because guessing’s what you’re doing. How about something more creative than ’NAZI EUROPE bigot’?

I’ve read most of OMD’s forum posts. Anti-defender, anti-SC Liberation: sure. Anti-Muslim: no. Anti-Muslim and anti-Muslim troll imply bigotry. Irreligious, however, doesn’t. Your intent was to paint OMD as a bigot.

Where’s your evidence OMD is/was a bigot and a troll, CD?

viewtopic.php?p=8676845#p8676845

But, obviously, he came back -- hence, the surprise to natives.

I simply pointed to the difference between a player coming out of retirement, with an intent to stick around, and a player summoned by another player requesting control of one of his old puppets. That said, Islam native surprise is puzzling. Iron Bark had refounded his nation at least once in the past.

I'm sooooo sure they'll come back now that they know the region could be destroyed again at any second.



Islam natives had ample opportunity to relocate and/or refound. I figured they were masochists who enjoy living dangerously.

[Onderkelkia]

Athelstan MacGregor's citizenship application has not "conveniently disappeared"; that is a pure lie.

If it's a pure lie, then prove me wrong and produce the application. I've looked everywhere but underneath your wig stand.

I'm not searching through the 1,083 posts of our citizenship applications thread, spread over 73 pages (not to mention those citizenship applications started in new topics rather than in the applications thread), in order to satisfy the whimsical speculations of a Nazi Europa member banned from our forums.

Anyone who is so inclined, and enjoys legitimate access to the LKE forums, is welcome to search for the application, and I'm sure they'd find it if they look scrupulously enough. The other point to be noted on this matter is that Athelstan MacGregor was a member of the LKE's protectorate of Polis before he joined the LKE, so his original application for imperial citizenship may well be on that forum (or alternatively he may have applications on both).

[The South Polish Union]

If it's a pure lie, then prove me wrong and produce the application. I've looked everywhere but underneath your wig stand.

I'm not searching through the 1,083 posts of our citizenship applications thread, spread over 73 pages (not to mention those citizenship applications started in new topics rather than in the applications thread), in order to satisfy the whimsical speculations of a Nazi Europa member banned from our forums.

Anyone who is so inclined, and enjoys legitimate access to the LKE forums, is welcome to search for the application, and I'm sure they'd find it if they look scrupulously enough. The other point to be noted on this matter is that Athelstan MacGregor was a member of the LKE's protectorate of Polis before he joined the LKE, so his original application for imperial citizenship may well be on that forum (or alternatively he may have applications on both).

So you're too lazy to use Ctrl+F to quickly find a citizenship application but regularly find the time to type out truly prodigous walls of text on this forum?

Stay classy, Onder.

[Onderkelkia]

I'm not searching through the 1,083 posts of our citizenship applications thread, spread over 73 pages (not to mention those citizenship applications started in new topics rather than in the applications thread), in order to satisfy the whimsical speculations of a Nazi Europa member banned from our forums.

Anyone who is so inclined, and enjoys legitimate access to the LKE forums, is welcome to search for the application, and I'm sure they'd find it if they look scrupulously enough. The other point to be noted on this matter is that Athelstan MacGregor was a member of the LKE's protectorate of Polis before he joined the LKE, so his original application for imperial citizenship may well be on that forum (or alternatively he may have applications on both).

So you're too lazy to use Ctrl+F to quickly find a citizenship application but regularly find the time to type out truly prodigous walls of text on this forum?

Stay classy, Onder.

How exactly are you suggesting one uses Ctrl+F to find it?

[Kaboomlandia]

Great new issue. The LKE ignorance issue is huge.

[Onderkelkia]

Great new issue. The LKE ignorance issue is huge.

We are talking about two unrelated incidents in quite different contexts.

In the case of Bob Moran, there is no way we could have distinguished between genuine and fake telegrams which appeared to be manual.

[Zacherie]

Great new issue. The LKE ignorance issue is huge.

I'd like to point out that not even the mods realized that it was illegal script recruitment until a week ago. If the mods couldn't figure it out, how do you think anyone in LKE could have?"

[The South Polish Union]

So you're too lazy to use Ctrl+F to quickly find a citizenship application but regularly find the time to type out truly prodigous walls of text on this forum?

Stay classy, Onder.

How exactly are you suggesting one uses Ctrl+F to find it?

In almost every web browser designed since the mid-1990's, Ctrl+F opens a search bar, which you can then enter text in to search a web page for said text. For example, pressing Ctrl+F on my my computer right now and typing 'Athelstan MacGregor' brings up several results, just as it should on your forum.

As an alternative, most forums have a built-in search tool that you can easily use to search for posts by a specific user, or by keyword.

The fact that you're unwilling to put in the minimal effort to do this at the cost of your region's reputation (or whatever's left of it) despite taking the much greater effort to make so many of your posts dissertation-length is highly suspicious.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

http://s6.zetaboards.com/Imperial_LKE/s ... &t=1311538

Athelstan MacGregor did not disclose membership in Nazi Europe in his citizenship application.

Onder has expressed no desire to waste his time looking, which is forgiveable because a; Onder has been busy with non NationStates business for the last few months and has only popped in to appeal the decision taken against the LKE by [violet] re: Bob Moran's questionable activities, and because b; it's an astounding coincidence that it happened to be the third-from-the-front application in the filing cabinet. Captain Woodhouse, on the other hand, who has claimed to have looked... bit out of character for you to bluff on here, so I assume you completely missed it?

The reputation of the LKE is not (and never will be) at risk due to something written by The South Polish Union, the proud inventor of 'Schrödinger's FRA Membership'.

[Onderkelkia]

How exactly are you suggesting one uses Ctrl+F to find it?

In almost every web browser designed since the mid-1990's, Ctrl+F opens a search bar, which you can then enter text in to search a web page for said text. For example, pressing Ctrl+F on my my computer right now and typing 'Athelstan MacGregor' brings up several results, just as it should on your forum.

This assumes that you are searching a single web page. Ctrl+F doesn't search all 73 pages of the citizenship application thread simultaneously.

[The South Polish Union]

The reputation of the LKE is not (and never will be) at risk due to something written by The South Polish Union, the proud inventor of 'Schrödinger's FRA Membership'.

True, at this point the LKE's reputation will never be at risk, because it ceased to exist a long time ago.

[Captain Woodhouse]

So you're too lazy to use Ctrl+F to quickly find a citizenship application but regularly find the time to type out truly prodigous walls of text on this forum?

The fact that you're unwilling to put in the minimal effort to do this at the cost of your region's reputation (or whatever's left of it) despite taking the much greater effort to make so many of your posts dissertation-length is highly suspicious.

In the time it took you to misspell prodigious, you could have registered on the LKE forum, punched in ctrl-f yourself and really schooled Onder and me good with the stunning results.

This assumes that you are searching a single web page. Ctrl+F doesn't search all 73 pages of the citizenship application thread simultaneously.

Command-f on a Mac. Correct, the shortcut is worthless beyond a single page search. A southern tack hasn’t changed NPU any. Still stepping in it while trying so hard to be clever.

Athelstan MacGregor did not disclose membership in Nazi Europe in his citizenship application.

Captain Woodhouse, on the other hand, who has claimed to have looked... bit out of character for you to bluff on here, so I assume you completely missed it?

Truth, not piss-poor bluffing, was my aim. Aye, I searched the 14 pages of citizenship applications that date back to ’10, and missed the others combined with the Electoral College topic.

Onder and I went a few rounds over Greg in the Red & Black thread in January following Cormac’s suggestion that Onder knew his prime minister and NE’s propaganda minister were one and the same. Onder would come off smelling pretty bad if he admitted to having prior knowledge of his prime minister’s NE affiliation while outwardly maintaining an extreme anti-Nazi stance and instigating the destruction/refound of NE. Greg joined the debate to refute Onder’s ignorance claim in that instance as well as other portions of his story.

Greg posted in the SC that he’d included his NE affiliation in his citizenship application, so I was curious. Thanks for locating it, Klaus. Clearly, no NE info exists in the application now. I assume LKE forum admin can edit post content invisibly same as NE admin on our forum. It’s pointless to accuse LKE of post editing, but I don’t believe Greg deliberately misrepresented the contents of his citizenship application either.

The original argument had nothing to do with a citizenship application, but rather Onder claiming ignorance of Greg’s NE affiliation when he was being vetted for high-level LKE government positions, including prime minister. There’s no doubt in my mind Onder is lying and Greg is telling the truth when he says Onder knew of his NE affiliation long before it was supposedly ‘brought to his attention’. Onder even admits the evidence was readily available in Greg's signature. By maintaining cluelessness, he's thrown Greg under the bus to get himself off the hook and save face in the game. From one of Greg’s NE forum posts, November 2012:

I have not insignificant ties among the Imperialist and Monarchist spheres that I have been using for quite some time now to keep pressure off us and, occasionally, intelligence, that I could use to get us allies. Onder Kelkia in particular, has gone farther than I would have expected for us at my request, while still being unable to give us overt support due to the vehement anti-Nazi rhetoric espoused by the LKE's closest allies.

http://i.imgur.com/WDbA4ge.jpg

Onder has an excuse for every question raised concerning his ignorance of situations that have landed LKE in hot water or potentially could. Bob Moran: LKE interior minister and chief of general staff. Yet again, Onder oblivious to the alleged secret doings of another LKE government member. Doesn’t have clue one about this stuff yet runs damage control and is the main spokesman for the region.

NE uses stamp recruitment. I don’t know how much my campaign was affected by LKE and TBR illegal recruitment; if funds applied to the campaign were lost on account of it or what. If illegal recruitment resulted in lost funds and new recruits for regions recruiting with stamps, a three month recruitment ban and a couple heads rolling ain’t punishment enough. You dance to the music, expect to pay the piper—even if you’re dancing in your sleep.

[Onderkelkia]

Truth, not piss-poor bluffing, was my aim. Aye, I searched the 14 pages of citizenship applications that date back to ’10, and missed the others combined with the Electoral College topic.

I don't know what 14-page citizenship applications thread you are talking about; perhaps you are referring to an old thread but you'd have had to go back some pages in the Imperial Customs and Immigration forum to find it. The "Electoral College" topic only gained that title on 10th February this year when we introduced a new constitution. Prior to that, this thread was called simply called Citizenship Applications, it was pinned and it has been in operation continuously since April 2011, with all citizenship applications from that period onwards (other than those started in separate topics) contained within.

Above, you said you'd searched "everywhere but underneath your wig stand" to find that application and yet you miss a post displayed on the first page of the pinned citizenship application thread. Having allegedly missed that post, you accuse the LKE of having "conveniently disappeared" the topic. This latest incident reminds me of the last thread, when you claimed I removed a reference to NE from his signature, when he had already stated he did so himself.

You are simply throwing mud and trying to see what sticks.

Greg posted in the SC that he’d included his NE affiliation in his citizenship application, so I was curious. Thanks for locating it, Klaus. Clearly, no NE info exists in the application now. I assume LKE forum admin can edit post content invisibly same as NE admin on our forum. It’s pointless to accuse LKE of post editing, but I don’t believe Greg deliberately misrepresented the contents of his citizenship application either.

The application form which we began with in April 2011, drawn up by Crown Prince HEM (who you'll see started that topic, rather than me), did not even include a question as to other regional affiliations. I later amended the form a few months later (although the LKE's application form was still a lot more basic than the one I wrote for TNI until 2014). It appears from Avakael's finding that this individual applied in the period before that question was added.

In any case, I am certain no NE reference was on his application, because I would have seen it and blocked it.

The original argument had nothing to do with a citizenship application, but rather Onder claiming ignorance of Greg’s NE affiliation when he was being vetted for high-level LKE government positions, including prime minister. There’s no doubt in my mind Onder is lying and Greg is telling the truth when he says Onder knew of his NE affiliation long before it was supposedly ‘brought to his attention’. Onder even admits the evidence was readily available in Greg's signature. By maintaining cluelessness, he's thrown Greg under the bus to get himself off the hook and save face in the game. From one of Greg’s NE forum posts, November 2012:

Insofar as vetting for positions goes, the possibility of Nazi members joining was not one we considered. Our counter-intelligence work has always focused on defender regions and organisations, and on that score Athelstan MacGregor was perfectly clean, so he was not flagged as a potential security risk. Clearly, this was an error on the LKE's part but it reflects that our counter-intelligence efforts never contemplated a threat from your direction.

As far as his signature is concerned, we know it was in his signature from the fact he told us he was removing it after the question of his NE membership arose following our declaration of war on the Greater German Reich, but I never noticed this line before that point. Even today, I do not read every line in every LKE member's signature beyond the essentials at the top. His membership of NE only came to my attention after we declared war on GGR.

By maintaining cluelessness, he's thrown Greg under the bus to get himself off the hook and save face in the game. From one of Greg’s NE forum posts, November 2012:

I have not insignificant ties among the Imperialist and Monarchist spheres that I have been using for quite some time now to keep pressure off us and, occasionally, intelligence, that I could use to get us allies. Onder Kelkia in particular, has gone farther than I would have expected for us at my request, while still being unable to give us overt support due to the vehement anti-Nazi rhetoric espoused by the LKE's closest allies.

That post is an absolute lie, pure fiction and utter drivel - if indeed it is unedited. At no point were any concessions or assistance on anti-Nazi efforts offered. I don't know if he was consciously misrepresenting the situation to satisfy you or deluding himself to rationalise his continued connection to both regions despite the threat posed by the LKE to NE, but we did not curtail our anti-Nazi efforts in any respects. Far from it: I recall having personally sanctioned and led TNI and LKE involvement in several plans, and if I recall correctly at least one unsuccessful attempt, to invade NE in that period.

The "vehement anti-Nazi rhetoric" wasn't just coming from the LKE's allies as he suggests; at all times it was coming from, indeed partly led by, the LKE itself. The LKE was the first region to declare war on the Greater German Reich, triggering a chain of declarations from other regions, and, as part of the UIAF, the LKE was one of the two leading parties in the ultimate invasion of Nazi Europe. We were persistently forceful in advocating anti-Nazi efforts.

Onder has an excuse for every question raised concerning his ignorance of situations that have landed LKE in hot water or potentially could. Bob Moran: LKE interior minister and chief of general staff. Yet again, Onder oblivious to the alleged secret doings of another LKE government member. Doesn’t have clue one about this stuff yet runs damage control and is the main spokesman for the region.

The cases of Athelstan MacGregor and Bob Moran are utterly different.

Athelstan MacGregor's Nazi background was potentially discoverable at an earlier point and when we found out, rather than taking the approach I described in my post above (ultimately leading to his retirement from LKE life in favour of NE), we should have simply banned him extrajudicially - but that is a highly exceptional procedure in the LKE and has only been used twice against a citizen since 2007, including the case of Bob Moran. Failure to discover Athelstan MacGregor's affiliation to NE earlier and failure to ban him when we found out were mistakes, as I have stated previously, and I am very sorry about them.

There is no way we could have detected Bob Moran's sending of automated telegrams as fake manual telegrams. I have already, in another thread, given a detailed account of the nature of Bob Moran's membership in the LKE - he was first appointed Chief of the Imperial General Staff at the end of January 2015 but this to provide additional training and administrative support, as all command functions at the time were vested in the UIAF (Bob Moran deliberately was not appointed as LKE UIAF Division Commander, a position which predecessor had held concurrently); subsequently on UIAF's disbandment he agreed to stay on as a caretaker (as his main military commitments were in TBR and he did not want to jeopardise them) until a suitable LKE soldier was ready.

The Prime Minister has already described his rationale for appointing for Bob Moran on 8th March as interior minister (by which point [violet]'s graph shows Bob Moran was already using his illegal script, so it had nothing to do with his government positon). The Prime Minister had no grounds for suspicion against Bob Moran - at the time he presented as an active and engaging community member. He had no authorisation to use an automated tool.

Whereas Athelstan MacGregor was discoverable, Bob Moran was not. Whereas Athelstan MacGregor was not extrajudicially banned, Bob Moran was.

NE uses stamp recruitment. I don’t know how much my campaign was affected by LKE and TBR illegal recruitment; if funds applied to the campaign were lost on account of it or what. If illegal recruitment resulted in lost funds and new recruits for regions recruiting with stamps, a three month recruitment ban and a couple heads rolling ain’t punishment enough. You dance to the music, expect to pay the piper—even if you’re dancing in your sleep.

There are not a "couple heads rolling" - only one, because only one individual acted, and without any wider regional involvement.

The responsibility for the use of the automated tool, which was disgraceful, rests with Bob Moran and full sanctions should be applied to him.

The "three month recruitment ban" will leave the LKE population below when it was when [violet]'s graph shows Bob Moran initiated his script.

[The Church of Satan]

Regardless of whether or not the leadership of LKE knew about the illegal script or its use, the region's leadership is responsible for keeping a close eye on the recruitment telegrams in order to ensure illegal activity is not taking place. I might be a bit biased, but I'm inclined to believe that the leadership of LKE knew and condoned the use of the script in question. I mean, the huge increase in the region's population should have at least indicated that something was off. I mean, using a telegram API I managed to recruit 50 nations for a region over the period of about 5 days, but of course that is not a typical result and I was probably just lucky. An increase of several hundred however is far from typical and hardly feasible for any region. So claiming ignorance seems to me a poor effort of having the recruitment ban lifted. It would save a lot of time to just admit "Okay, we did it. You caught us and we've learned our lesson." Instead you've opted to stay in the plane panicking as it crashes into the mountainside. Unless you have concrete proof that Bob Moran acted of his own accord without your knowledge, then fighting the decision of moderation is an act of futility.

[Onderkelkia]

Regardless of whether or not the leadership of LKE knew about the illegal script or its use, the region's leadership is responsible for keeping a close eye on the recruitment telegrams in order to ensure illegal activity is not taking place.

How exactly do you suggest we should have kept "a close eye on recruitment telegrams in order to ensure illegal activity is not taking place"? It would have been perfectly simple for him, having operated a script, to compile a log of nations to which telegrams were sent. As for the API delivery information, that only shows 11,800 telegrams blocked by reason of the nations concerned having received a telegram too recently - assuming Bob Moran's recruitment began in late January or early February, which is what [violet]'s graph indicates, that would have been perfectly consistent with Bob Moran sending 200-300 telegrams per day, which is perfectly possible and indeed was regularly achieved by manual recruiters for high population regions in the pre-script age.

I struggle to believe that most user-created regions engage in inspections of their manual recruitment for signs that is is automated - nor do rules obligate them to do so. There was no reason for the LKE to think that this was possible, let alone that it was likely or that it was being performed in this instance.

The bottom line is that there is no way the LKE could have detected that the telegrams Bob Moran was sending spoofed as manual were automated. I assume the only people who could have detected it were the site administrators and that did not happen until allegations began being made in these forum.

I might be a bit biased, but I'm inclined to believe that the leadership of LKE knew and condoned the use of the script in question.

Of course you are "a bit biased" as you put it; you are a member of The Rejected Realms, a region which the LKE is at war with and which I invaded.

You might like to think otherwise, but The LKE knew nothing of Bob Moran's script and did not consent to its use.

I mean, the huge increase in the region's population should have at least indicated that something was off. I mean, using a telegram API I managed to recruit 50 nations for a region over the period of about 5 days, but of course that is not a typical result and I was probably just lucky. An increase of several hundred however is far from typical and hardly feasible for any region. So claiming ignorance seems to me a poor effort of having the recruitment ban lifted.

Anyone can look with hindsight at the LKE's population and see that the population rise must have been caused by Bob Moran's illegal script. However, it was far from obvious that this was the cause was at the time - not least because the idea of such a thing never crossed our minds. Moreover, not one foreign observer or anyone else ever suggested that an illegal script was a possibility or even that the population increase required investigation. Everyone else in the game could see the population rise as much as the LKE leadership could and no one else came to the conclusion that you insist we should have reached.

Regions are not obliged to understand the causes of changes in their regional populations. Regional populations can fluctuate due to a change in the global population or because of a change in the number or appeal of competitor regions. Regions that use similar recruitment methods for a long period can end up with different populations. It is abnormal to attribute such things to an illegal script and I fail to see why the LKE should be blamed for not doing so.

Bob Moran claimed to be engaging in significant additional manual recruitment, against a context in which very little manual recruitment had previously been performed. There was every reason to think that this might lead to a population increase if sustained. His appointment as interior minister on 8th March was followed by the Reddit boom, which again provided another explanation for population increase. In retrospect, these explanations were clearly wrong - and even if we had thought the population rise was suspicious, we'd have been far more likely to think someone was using puppets to create an artificial increase than an illegal script (while the WA population, did check at the time, was rising as well, which discounted that possibility).

It would save a lot of time to just admit "Okay, we did it. You caught us and we've learned our lesson."

We are not confessing to something we did not do for the sake of convenience.

No one else in the LKE knew anything about Bob Moran's ilegal script and we never authorised him to conduct any legal or illegal automated recruitment.

Unless you have concrete proof that Bob Moran acted of his own accord without your knowledge, then fighting the decision of moderation is an act of futility.

How exactly are we meant to have "concrete proof that Bob Moran acted of his own accord without your knowledge"?

You are effectively reversing the burden of proof so the entire LKE is presumed guilty until proven innocent. There is a reason why the burden lies on the accuser and that is because it's virtually impossible to prove you didn't know something. Aelbarrow I saw yesterday has already copied over Bob Moran's Interior Ministry reports to the other thread, in which he clearly refers to the telegrams he was sending as "handsent"; he gave no indication of a script.

In any case, insofar as the bearing this has on the appeal, unfortunately [violet] has already said she is not interested in whether we knew or should have known. However, I hope that the administrators will revidse that opinion to take our lack of knowledge into account and moreover, also consider the appeal we have submitted on the separate grounds that the recruitment block imposed will likely leave the LKE population below where it stood when Bob Moran's illegal activity (if we assume it began at the starting point of the population rise in [violet]'s graph), meaning that it goes beyond removing the advantage caused to the LKE to, needlessly disadvantaging us further (for something that the leadership and community of the LKE itself had no idea about).

[The Church of Satan]

I'm of the opinion that whether or not LKE knew, the region benefited from the illegal activities of Bob Moran, whether it wanted to or not. I would think that your region is being punished for benefiting from it, as opposed to condoning it. The main issue is that LKE benefited from it and that isn't going to change. What's done is done and the region must still be punished for that. You don't see TBR posting on the forum saying "We didn't know it was happening and the punishment isn't fair!" The punishment is as fair as it can be and frankly would have been worse if it was discovered that LKE had condoned the use of the script. You should consider yourselves lucky.

[Onderkelkia]

I'm of the opinion that whether or not LKE knew, the region benefited from the illegal activities of Bob Moran, whether it wanted to or not. I would think that your region is being punished for benefiting from it, as opposed to condoning it. The main issue is that LKE benefited from it and that isn't going to change. What's done is done and the region must still be punished for that.

1. I entirely accept that it is reasonable to want illicit population gains by the LKE to be removed.

2. A 3-month recruitment block will cause the LKE population to fall below 200 under nations (based on the fact that there are less than 200 nations in the LKE which joined more than 90 days ago). Yet at the point when the massive population rise began on [violet]'s graph, which is presumably when Bob Moran began his illegal script, the LKE population was 300-350 nations, and it's possible that with our API script recruitment it might have grown a little since then. So the 3-month recruitment block imposed in fact involves the LKE ultimately dropping 150 or more nations from where we stood at the point when Bob Moran likely began his illegal script. Thus the recruitment block does far more than merely remove the advantage gained by the LKE.

3. I don't think "punishment" is the correct terminology to use unless the LKE engaged in wrongdoing, as opposed to unknowingly benefited from it.

4. I have outlined three alternatives that would lead to a reduction in the LKE proportion that removed the effects of Bob Moran's illegal script:

1. Increasing the limit on the number of API script telegrams we could send out for a set period, so we could still recruit but at a slower rate - possibly with a ban on stamps or manual recruitment alongside this.

2. A shorter recrutiment block which would bring the LKE's population back to 300-350 nations or so, rather than below 200 nations, and would not include "proxy regions" which have nothing to do with the region where Bob Moran's illegal activity distorted the population.

3. Allowing the natural process to take its course, which would see the LKE's population eventually decline back to a proper level - if Bob Moran's recruitment was what was making a difference, then its cessation would see a gradual decline set in - the recruitment block merely rapidly accelerates it.

The punishment is as fair as it can be

The punishment is excessive if it is designed with the sole purpose of removing the illicit consequences of Bob Moran's actions.

and frankly would have been worse if it was discovered that LKE had condoned the use of the script.

This could not have been discovered because we did not condone use of the script. We did not even know about it.

You should consider yourselves lucky.

Excuse me if the LKE population doesn't jump for joy at being deceived by someone we respected, with his disgraceful actions leading to significant population cost (with losses likely to push us below where we without his supposed help) and major reputation cost. We are in fact extremely unlucky.

[The Church of Satan]

I don't see how preventing telegram recruitment is intended to decrease LKE's population. It is up to LKE itself to keep its populace interested enough in the region to remain there. Blaming the mods for it is just naive.