by Arkolon » Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:21 pm
by Trotskylvania » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:18 pm
Arkolon wrote:Before being turned into a popularity contest riddled with dubious, shadowy-yet-ever-smiling and dodgy characters and negative connotations with the advent of democracy, politics was largely philosophical. What one used to refer to as politics was how we believe society should organise itself, and how one can justify this position through a set of axioms. We have progressed a long way: from the Stoics to the medieval Thomistics, from consequentialism to ethical Kantianism throughout the millennia. When mentioning “politics”, think not banners and badges, campaigns and cake sales, but think “philosophy”, or, more specifically, “political philosophy”.
As I mentioned, each political philosophy relies on a set list of axioms, and from these axioms (which have to be individually proven true) we have to derive which society is the most justifiable. These axioms could be a labour theory of value, an assumption that land is a positive commons, the existence of one or many gods, that humans are intrinsically self-interested, that nature is the most fairest of paths, and many, many more. What is important when discussing political philosophy is the examination of these axioms, taking down the ideology not from what it proposes, but from what it stands on. You will find it much harder to argue in advocacy of the opinion that workers are fully entitled to the fruit of their labour, for instance, when the labour theory of value is remitted from acceptance; when the very basis of this opinion has been itself put into question.
Arkolon wrote:The most structured political philosophies have, however, one weakness. It is a very important weakness that can not easily be overcome, and is found at the very depths of the philosophy. As axiomatic lists go in numerical order, they must obviously have a starting point, a Starter Axiom, if you will. Rejecting the Starter Axiom is rejecting the whole philosophy, whereas acquiescing to the Starter Axiom of a philosophy is agreeing to approximately nine-tenths of its ethical core.
Arkolon wrote:There are many ways to justify self-ownership, but the course I took I had to DIY philosophise, because every single right-libertarian or voluntaryist book never goes deeper than “just because”, and that is not an acceptable justification of a Starter Axiom. I took from Aristotelian hylomorphism to justify my opinion on me owning myself. Put bluntly, the bricks that constitute a house belong to the house; the body that constitutes a person belongs to the person. We can put it this way:
i. A brick house is made of bricks.
ii. Without the bricks, there is no brick house.
iii. The bricks belong to the brick house.
Or, alternatively:
i. A is made from B.
ii. If not-B, therefore not-A.
iii. B belongs to A.
1. A owns B.
Where B is the “relative matter” that Aristotle referred to, and A is made possible by the existence of B.
Arkolon wrote:For the human person or mind (or “soul”), consider this:
i. The person is made from the functional body.
ii. Without the functional body, there is no person.
iii. The functional body belongs to the person.
1. The person owns their body.
Where “functional” means a living, working body, which means that if the body was dead (ie, not “functional”), then this could not apply.
So, TL;DR:
Do you own yourself, NSG?
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga
by Rebellious Fishermen » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:19 pm
by The New Sea Territory » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:21 pm
| Ⓐ ☭ | Anarchist Communist | Heideggerian Marxist | Vegetarian | Bisexual | Stirnerite | Slavic/Germanic Pagan | ᚨ ᛟ |
Solntsa Roshcha --- Postmodern Poyltheist
"Christianity had brutally planted the poisoned blade in the healthy, quivering flesh of all humanity; it had goaded a cold wave
of darkness with mystically brutal fury to dim the serene and festive exultation of the dionysian spirit of our pagan ancestors."
-Renzo Novatore, Verso il Nulla Creatore
by Pandeeria » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:26 pm
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.
In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???
by Arkolon » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:27 pm
The New Sea Territory wrote:You own yourself because you have conscious control over your body and yourself. You are yourself, thus you must have control over and "own" yourself.
Self-Ownership is the reality. You ARE You.
by Arkolon » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:28 pm
Pandeeria wrote:My god, yes, you own yourself up until you die.
by Pandeeria » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:29 pm
Arkolon wrote:The New Sea Territory wrote:You own yourself because you have conscious control over your body and yourself. You are yourself, thus you must have control over and "own" yourself.
Self-Ownership is the reality. You ARE You.
This is assuming control = ownership, which was an argumentative equivalent of two knuckles to the solar plexus when I last tried to use it. Sociobiology demonstrates this well: I could control your body with wires and electricity, and your mind would still exist, but who then owns your body--me, the one doing what any normal person can do with their body to your body-- or you, the incapacitated self who is barred from controlling the body themselves?
Getting on to the first post soon enough, by the way.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.
In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???
by The Orson Empire » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:29 pm
by Avenio » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:29 pm
Arkolon wrote:Before being turned into a popularity contest riddled with dubious, shadowy-yet-ever-smiling and dodgy characters and negative connotations with the advent of democracy, politics was largely philosophical.
by Pandeeria » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:30 pm
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.
In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???
by Great Kleomentia » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:30 pm
The New Sea Territory wrote:You own yourself because you have conscious control over your body and yourself. You are yourself, thus you must have control over and "own" yourself.
Self-Ownership is the reality. You ARE You.
by Arkolon » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:31 pm
by Trotskylvania » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:32 pm
The New Sea Territory wrote:You own yourself because you have conscious control over your body and yourself. You are yourself, thus you must have control over and "own" yourself.
Self-Ownership is the reality. You ARE You.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga
by Arkolon » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:33 pm
Pandeeria wrote:Arkolon wrote:This is assuming control = ownership, which was an argumentative equivalent of two knuckles to the solar plexus when I last tried to use it. Sociobiology demonstrates this well: I could control your body with wires and electricity, and your mind would still exist, but who then owns your body--me, the one doing what any normal person can do with their body to your body-- or you, the incapacitated self who is barred from controlling the body themselves?
Getting on to the first post soon enough, by the way.
You own your body. You were the one originally controlling it, hooking up wires and controlling you would be stealing your body away from you.
by Arkolon » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:33 pm
Trotskylvania wrote:The New Sea Territory wrote:You own yourself because you have conscious control over your body and yourself. You are yourself, thus you must have control over and "own" yourself.
Self-Ownership is the reality. You ARE You.
If you own yourself, you can sell yourself. It's an asset like any other, and you could be compelled to sell yourself into slavery to settle outstanding debts.
by Pandeeria » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:34 pm
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.
In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???
by Great Kleomentia » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:34 pm
Arkolon wrote:The New Sea Territory wrote:You own yourself because you have conscious control over your body and yourself. You are yourself, thus you must have control over and "own" yourself.
Self-Ownership is the reality. You ARE You.
This is assuming control = ownership, which was an argumentative equivalent of two knuckles to the solar plexus when I last tried to use it. Sociobiology demonstrates this well: I could control your body with wires and electricity, and your mind would still exist, but who then owns your body--me, the one doing what any normal person can do with their body to your body-- or you, the incapacitated self who is barred from controlling the body themselves?
Getting on to the first post soon enough, by the way.
by Arkolon » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:35 pm
by Trotskylvania » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:36 pm
Arkolon wrote:Trotskylvania wrote:If you own yourself, you can sell yourself. It's an asset like any other, and you could be compelled to sell yourself into slavery to settle outstanding debts.
Slavery is legitimate as long as it is 100% voluntary. It would be irrational, but not ethically illegitimate, to sell oneself voluntarily into slavery.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga
by Great Kleomentia » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:39 pm
Trotskylvania wrote:Arkolon wrote:Slavery is legitimate as long as it is 100% voluntary. It would be irrational, but not ethically illegitimate, to sell oneself voluntarily into slavery.
"Voluntary" slavery can be compelled. Allow it, and you're going to be seeing poor people forced to sell themselves into slavery by chancery courts to settle their debts.
And as I pointed out previously, the very concept is destructive to liberty. Voluntary slavery regimes inevitably turn into perpetual chattel slavery regimes if allowed to exist.
by Pandeeria » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:39 pm
Trotskylvania wrote:Arkolon wrote:Slavery is legitimate as long as it is 100% voluntary. It would be irrational, but not ethically illegitimate, to sell oneself voluntarily into slavery.
"Voluntary" slavery can be compelled. Allow it, and you're going to be seeing poor people forced to sell themselves into slavery by chancery courts to settle their debts.
And as I pointed out previously, the very concept is destructive to liberty. Voluntary slavery regimes inevitably turn into perpetual chattel slavery regimes if allowed to exist.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.
In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???
by Slobozhanshchyna » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:40 pm
by Geilinor » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:40 pm
Great Kleomentia wrote:Trotskylvania wrote:"Voluntary" slavery can be compelled. Allow it, and you're going to be seeing poor people forced to sell themselves into slavery by chancery courts to settle their debts.
And as I pointed out previously, the very concept is destructive to liberty. Voluntary slavery regimes inevitably turn into perpetual chattel slavery regimes if allowed to exist.
If someone wants to sell themselves to slavery, you have no right to take it away. It's similar to suicide. It's not their first option, but if they have nowhere else to go, or at least see no other route, who are you to take that away from them? In any case, i'm sure a lot fo homeless people would be better of as home servants than just being out on the street.
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