Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[Untaroicht]

According to TV Tropes, The Koran and other Islamic sources say that djinni (invisible spirits made of fire and the inspiration for genies in Western literature) follow the same religions that humans do — there are Muslim genies, Christian genies, Jewish genies, etc. — and will be judged at the end of time in the same manner that humans will.

I wanted to verify if this was true with islamic theology, or a misinterpretation...

[Allentyr]

I have a discussion question, if anyone wants to participate.

Because there is no compulsion in religion in Islam, is it correct to indoctrinate children into Islam? Should children make the final choice once they reach puberty once they want to be a Muslim or not?

I know in Islam, parents have to teach their children about the religion, but to force a child to follow Islam is really not in the ethics of Islam. If I raise a child, I will ask them once they reach 15 whether or not they want to follow Islam or not, and their choice I will accept. What do you guys think about this?

I find that when someone chooses to do something, they are more committed to it, and this applies to religion as well. Those who pledge themselves into Islam when they are mature enough are often more devout than those who were, "born into the faith".

Yes. I believe a child who is born into Islam is not actually Muslim, due to the fact he was born into it unwillingly. He should be given the choice on they reach puberty. However, I highly doubt people would go well with their children refusing to be one and would probably spew "THAT WESTERN DUNG'S IN YER HED AGAIN, HURR DURR!". Some people (my parents)

[The White Horde]

I have a discussion question, if anyone wants to participate.

Because there is no compulsion in religion in Islam, is it correct to indoctrinate children into Islam? Should children make the final choice once they reach puberty once they want to be a Muslim or not?

I know in Islam, parents have to teach their children about the religion, but to force a child to follow Islam is really not in the ethics of Islam. If I raise a child, I will ask them once they reach 15 whether or not they want to follow Islam or not, and their choice I will accept. What do you guys think about this?

I find that when someone chooses to do something, they are more committed to it, and this applies to religion as well. Those who pledge themselves into Islam when they are mature enough are often more devout than those who were, "born into the faith".

Yes. I believe a child who is born into Islam is not actually Muslim, due to the fact he was born into it unwillingly. He should be given the choice on they reach puberty. However, I highly doubt people would go well with their children refusing to be one and would probably spew "THAT WESTERN DUNG'S IN YER HED AGAIN, HURR DURR!". Some people (my parents)

In Islam, all children are born Muslim (and clean of sin), and it is only till the age of puberty that they are given the conscious decision to make their choice.

[The White Horde]

According to TV Tropes, The Koran and other Islamic sources say that djinni (invisible spirits made of fire and the inspiration for genies in Western literature) follow the same religions that humans do — there are Muslim genies, Christian genies, Jewish genies, etc. — and will be judged at the end of time in the same manner that humans will.

I wanted to verify if this was true with islamic theology, or a misinterpretation...

Aye, the Lord of All Worlds created beings who were also given freedom of choice and, therefore, religion. There are also those who do believe in God but choose to spread evil anyway. At the end, all beings will be gathered and judged accordingly.

[Islamic Commune]

The word Genie is not the same as the word Jinn.

From what I know, there are other sentient living beings that are composed of different elements from humans, and those are the Jinn. However, human beings cannot see Jinn, so it is not usually something people discuss. They don't really affect human beings in any way.

So because there are other sentient beings capable of making decisions, yes they can follow Islam or follow other religions. But it is not really our business, because they are not beings we can interact with.

[Hazamaeia]

The word Genie is not the same as the word Jinn.

From what I know, there are other sentient living beings that are composed of different elements from humans, and those are the Jinn. However, human beings cannot see Jinn, so it is not usually something people discuss. They don't really affect human beings in any way.

So because there are other sentient beings capable of making decisions, yes they can follow Islam or follow other religions. But it is not really our business, because they are not beings we can interact with.

Back in may country, people possessed with spirit sometimes get into tv news, and we can have a discussion with them.
Some "real-life" experience story in forums also mentioned people being possessed by ghost/that sort of thing
These possession claimed to be done by Jinn, just search "kesurupan"

[Islamic Commune]

You're from Indonesia, right? Peace be upon you brother.

I do know that some people go on tv and claim they've been possessed by Jinn, but to be honest that is just silly. There is nothing in the Qur'an that says that Jinn can possess human beings, so I honestly doubt that those people would be telling the truth.

[The Legion of War]

Right, so I have a few questions about Islam.

I've made some Muslim friends this year (mostly from Pakistan, if that makes a difference), and I've heard some things here and there. I'll ask about them here to get a second opinion.

1) I was told there was some weird "point system" where you get "points" for doing good deeds. However, even simple things counted towards the number of "points". I've never heard of this before.

2) How close is Halal to Kosher (what Jews call food that's acceptable to eat)?

3) I've never seen a Qur'an so this is more or less out of curiosity. How much of the Old Testament and New Testament overlap with the Qur'an in terms of content (people, stories, etc)?

[Conscentia]

The word Genie is not the same as the word Jinn.

From what I know, there are other sentient living beings that are composed of different elements from humans, and those are the Jinn. However, human beings cannot see Jinn, so it is not usually something people discuss. They don't really affect human beings in any way.

So because there are other sentient beings capable of making decisions, yes they can follow Islam or follow other religions. But it is not really our business, because they are not beings we can interact with.

Wikipedia disagrees...

The jinn (also djinn or genies, Arabic: الجن‎ al-jinn, singular الجني al-jinnī) are supernatural creatures in Islamic and Arabic folklore. They are mentioned frequently in the Qur'an (the 72nd sura is titled Sūrat al-Jinn) and other Islamic texts and inhabit an unseen world in dimensions beyond the visible universe of humans. The Qur'an mentions that the jinn are made of a smokeless and "scorching fire",[1] but are also physical in nature, being able to interfere physically with people and objects and likewise be acted upon.

[Nervium]

According to TV Tropes, The Koran and other Islamic sources say that djinni (invisible spirits made of fire and the inspiration for genies in Western literature) follow the same religions that humans do — there are Muslim genies, Christian genies, Jewish genies, etc. — and will be judged at the end of time in the same manner that humans will.

I wanted to verify if this was true with islamic theology, or a misinterpretation...

I fully support Secular Humanist Genies.

[Totally Not Leningrad Union]

According to TV Tropes, The Koran and other Islamic sources say that djinni (invisible spirits made of fire and the inspiration for genies in Western literature) follow the same religions that humans do — there are Muslim genies, Christian genies, Jewish genies, etc. — and will be judged at the end of time in the same manner that humans will.

I wanted to verify if this was true with islamic theology, or a misinterpretation...

I fully support Secular Humanist Genies.

Made my day!

[Ballycolumbia]

Whoa, there is actual discussion here and not just rants? I'm impressed internet.

[Ereria]

Right, so I have a few questions about Islam.

I've made some Muslim friends this year (mostly from Pakistan, if that makes a difference), and I've heard some things here and there. I'll ask about them here to get a second opinion.

1) I was told there was some weird "point system" where you get "points" for doing good deeds. However, even simple things counted towards the number of "points". I've never heard of this before.

2) How close is Halal to Kosher (what Jews call food that's acceptable to eat)?

3) I've never seen a Qur'an so this is more or less out of curiosity. How much of the Old Testament and New Testament overlap with the Qur'an in terms of content (people, stories, etc)?

1) It isn't a point system really, it's just that your good deeds and your bad deeds are written down by the two angles on your shoulder (Kiraman Katibin). If your good deeds overweights your bad deeds, you will be accepted into paradise. It's easier to gain good deeds and it's easier to get rid of bad deeds though. When you do something bad, the angles wait for a moment to let you regret, if you don't it's written down, but if you do and ask for forgiveness, it's not written down while good deeds are written down at once.

2) Im not sure as Im not Jewish and have not studied their religion

3) The most important person that is named in both religions is of course Jesus ( A.K.A Isa in the Quran) which is considered a prophet and not the son of god in the Quran. It's also other important figures in Quran that is in the Bible, but I can't really remember any atm. You could always do a google search. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Figures+both+in+christianity+and+islam

[Nervium]

Whoa, there is actual discussion here and not just rants? I'm impressed internet.

There's some flaming every now and then, though.

[Ballycolumbia]

Right, so I have a few questions about Islam.

I've made some Muslim friends this year (mostly from Pakistan, if that makes a difference), and I've heard some things here and there. I'll ask about them here to get a second opinion.

1) I was told there was some weird "point system" where you get "points" for doing good deeds. However, even simple things counted towards the number of "points". I've never heard of this before.

2) How close is Halal to Kosher (what Jews call food that's acceptable to eat)?

3) I've never seen a Qur'an so this is more or less out of curiosity. How much of the Old Testament and New Testament overlap with the Qur'an in terms of content (people, stories, etc)?

1) It isn't a point system really, it's just that your good deeds and your bad deeds are written down by the two angles on your shoulder (Kiraman Katibin). If your good deeds overweights your bad deeds, you will be accepted into paradise. It's easier to gain good deeds and it's easier to get rid of bad deeds though. When you do something bad, the angles wait for a moment to let you regret, if you don't it's not written down, but if you do and ask for forgiveness, it's not written down while good deeds are written down at once.

2) Im not sure as Im not Jewish and have not studied their religion

3) The most important person that is named in both religions is of course Jesus ( A.K.A Isa in the Quran) which is considered a prophet and not the son of god in the Quran. It's also other important figures in Quran that is in the Bible, but I can't really remember any atm. You could always do a google search. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Figures+both+in+christianity+and+islam

Presume that's meant to be angels in the 1st point. If so, interesting, that must be where the concept of angel and devil on your shoulder comes from.

[Ereria]

1) It isn't a point system really, it's just that your good deeds and your bad deeds are written down by the two angles on your shoulder (Kiraman Katibin). If your good deeds overweights your bad deeds, you will be accepted into paradise. It's easier to gain good deeds and it's easier to get rid of bad deeds though. When you do something bad, the angles wait for a moment to let you regret, if you don't it's not written down, but if you do and ask for forgiveness, it's not written down while good deeds are written down at once.

2) Im not sure as Im not Jewish and have not studied their religion

3) The most important person that is named in both religions is of course Jesus ( A.K.A Isa in the Quran) which is considered a prophet and not the son of god in the Quran. It's also other important figures in Quran that is in the Bible, but I can't really remember any atm. You could always do a google search. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Figures+both+in+christianity+and+islam

Presume that's meant to be angels in the 1st point. If so, interesting, that must be where the concept of angel and devil on your shoulder comes from.

Lol, I hate writing on my phone. Sorry for any typos and stuff.

[Hazamaeia]

I'll answer number 2 as it wasn't covered by Ereria

2) How close is Halal to Kosher (what Jews call food that's acceptable to eat)?

I've ever heard about kosher and understand that it's much like the concept of halal in Islam except it's for the Jews. But i don't dig them to much. Articles in Wikipedia stated many things what's prohibited and what isn't etc. So to answer the question I'm just gonna list halal-haram food from my memory, inshallah.
Here:
- Corpse, pig, and blood is haram
- But, anything that resides in sea is halal for even the corpse. Flowing blood is haram, blood that is difficult to get rid of (like you found deep in chicken, etc.) is not considered as haram, and liver is halal.
- Animal slaughtered not in the name of Allah
- Animals killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a head-long fall or by the goring of horns, and those from which a wild animal has eaten, except if you are able to slaughter it before it dies. (I think this means that roadkill is haram)
- Animal slaughtered for sacrificial/tribute to other than Allah
- Furthermore in hadiths, wild savage animal and carnivores with sharp claw (like lion, tigers, etc.) are haram.
- Snake is haram
- Animals which eat dung are haram
- Some source say animals which are prohibited to kill them (like ants) are also haram. But I haven't found the hadith nor the verse regarding ants or other animals.
- Alcohol is haram.

Herbivores are mostly halal like camel, cow, horse, sheep, rabbit, goat, etc. Locust, chicken, whale are halal. Monitor lizard is halal. So compare these with kosher.

cmiiw

[Constantinopolis]

Assalamu alaikum! I didn't realize there was a Muslim discussion thread, too. This is great - I've always wanted to brush up on my knowledge of Islam. So I hope you don't mind if I jump right in with the questions...

Islam never really had a clerical body like Christianity had, although there were some failed attempts by the Ottomans. To Muslims, their prayers and repentance are directed only towards God, because God is the only one responsible for those.

I've always been curious about this part. I mean, I know that Islam has no clergy, but I don't really understand how that works. For example, who is in charge of the mosques? Who builds them, holds the keys to open them in the morning, and pays the various bills? Do the Muslims in a community elect administrators of some kind to take care of these things? Or is there some other process? And who legally owns a mosque?

I also know that, in Sunni Islam, you have people called imams who "lead the prayers", but are not considered clergy. Again, I would like to know more. What are the duties of a (Sunni) imam, and how does one become an imam? Does every mosque require an imam, or is it optional? Are the religious views of an imam considered to carry some special weight, or is the opinion of an imam equal to the opinion of any Muslim?

And what happens when two influential Muslims (let's say, popular book authors or well-known imams) disagree about some important religious matter? Is there a formal process to decide who is right, or is it like in Protestant Christianity, where the dispute simply never gets settled and the participants just have to agree to disagree (or argue forever)?

Sorry for the barrage of questions!

[Ereria]

Assalamu alaikum! I didn't realize there was a Muslim discussion thread, too. This is great - I've always wanted to brush up on my knowledge of Islam. So I hope you don't mind if I jump right in with the questions...

Islam never really had a clerical body like Christianity had, although there were some failed attempts by the Ottomans. To Muslims, their prayers and repentance are directed only towards God, because God is the only one responsible for those.

I've always been curious about this part. I mean, I know that Islam has no clergy, but I don't really understand how that works. For example, who is in charge of the mosques? Who builds them, holds the keys to open them in the morning, and pays the various bills? Do the Muslims in a community elect administrators of some kind to take care of these things? Or is there some other process? And who legally owns a mosque?

I also know that, in Sunni Islam, you have people called imams who "lead the prayers", but are not considered clergy. Again, I would like to know more. What are the duties of a (Sunni) imam, and how does one become an imam? Does every mosque require an imam, or is it optional? Are the religious views of an imam considered to carry some special weight, or is the opinion of an imam equal to the opinion of any Muslim?

And what happens when two influential Muslims (let's say, popular book authors or well-known imams) disagree about some important religious matter? Is there a formal process to decide who is right, or is it like in Protestant Christianity, where the dispute simply never gets settled and the participants just have to agree to disagree (or argue forever)?

Sorry for the barrage of questions!

1) Ususally, it is the government that owns the mosques. It's the Imams job to sort of 'run' the mosque. He plans gatherings and he leads the prayers. Imams are usually elected by a community vote (At least here in Turkey). The person who knows the Quran most is usually the person who is elected. The other questions is mostly answered by that the government owns the mosques most of the time so they do all the administartive stuff.

2) Not every mosque require an imam but it is prefered that a mosque has an imam. Imams lead prayers and talk about Islam and teach the community about Islam. Imams are normal humans and not seem as holy people of any sort like the pope of the christians. Being a Imam however is a very good deed in Islam. The imams are very respected in their communities though and their words in important matters usually has some weight.

3) In Islam you can't really argue what is right and what not. Everything is written in the Quran and what the Quran says is the right thing. Imams that teach other things than what the Quran says is doing a lot of Haram (Like some imams in Iraq and stuff that teach their community to kill sinners). Quran is about peace and forgiveness, anyone who teach otherwise is just idiots that doesn't have any clue about Islam and tell people what to do for their own benefit.

I hope I answered your questions well enough, im on my phone so it was a bit hard to type

[Hazamaeia]

Assalamu alaikum! I didn't realize there was a Muslim discussion thread, too. This is great - I've always wanted to brush up on my knowledge of Islam. So I hope you don't mind if I jump right in with the questions...

I've always been curious about this part. I mean, I know that Islam has no clergy, but I don't really understand how that works. For example, who is in charge of the mosques? Who builds them, holds the keys to open them in the morning, and pays the various bills? Do the Muslims in a community elect administrators of some kind to take care of these things? Or is there some other process? And who legally owns a mosque?

I also know that, in Sunni Islam, you have people called imams who "lead the prayers", but are not considered clergy. Again, I would like to know more. What are the duties of a (Sunni) imam, and how does one become an imam? Does every mosque require an imam, or is it optional? Are the religious views of an imam considered to carry some special weight, or is the opinion of an imam equal to the opinion of any Muslim?

And what happens when two influential Muslims (let's say, popular book authors or well-known imams) disagree about some important religious matter? Is there a formal process to decide who is right, or is it like in Protestant Christianity, where the dispute simply never gets settled and the participants just have to agree to disagree (or argue forever)?

Sorry for the barrage of questions!

Um, in Indonesia, a mosque is usually built and maintained by a community, for say, a neighborhood. The community support the construction, renovation, the facility etc. Some big/grander mosques like one owned by the government or a private company may have a DKM (mosque's prosperity council) which is consisted of men (and women, but usually it's only men) specially working for the mosque like do the cleaning, manning the footwear of the jamaa, do the athan, etc. and I think they're hired to do so.

Mosques are basically open 24/7 as there might be some travelers coming just to stop by and conduct a quick night prayer or to take a rest, but for some mosque it may be locked during the night and it's usually someone trusted by the community or from the DKM holds the key.

As for Imam, here it's the more of the one who leads a prayer. In small community mosque an imam for one prayer is basically elected, I mean, it's sorta like you have a group work for class and one of you got to be the group leader voluntarily. So at the next prayer, the Imam may change. He (imam must be a male) is usually the elder or the one with fluent Quran memory. Some mosques though have a designated Imam, usually the big mosques I stated above who basically has a good memory of various Quran verses.

If for imam you mean like a 'president' or a main preacher of a mosque, i think that's a different thing (at least here in Indonesia). Here mosques are basically don't rely on one constant preacher. Preacher in Friday prayer mostly different for every week. Today it could be the DKM leader, next week it could be the Minister of Religion. And a preacher is mostly a well-renowned ulama (scholar) or someone with higher religion education than the others.

Should there be a dispute among scholars, historically the dispute will be settled with discussion, arguments about which dalil is more true and which dalil is daif (weak/fake dalil), how a verse should be interpreted, I remember Islamic books said "but ulama said/told/argued/etc.". but that doesn't mean we don't have a conflict within Islam itself, Sunni-Shia for example. A reconciliation is actually already taken by many ulamas from several mazhab (school of teachings) like the Amman Message.

[Ereria]

how a verse should be interpreted

But the Quran is literal and shouldn't be interpreted in my knowledge. Am I wrong or is this not true?

[Ballycolumbia]

how a verse should be interpreted

But the Quran is literal and shouldn't be interpreted in my knowledge. Am I wrong or is this not true?

It's hardly like Judaism, where there are different sects depending on how literal/liberal you are with the Quran?

[Puerto Tyranus]

how a verse should be interpreted

But the Qur'an is literal and shouldn't be interpreted in my knowledge. Am I wrong or is this not true?

Well, Islam has sects just has Christianity does (though less diasporic and less of them), so no doubt that, too, is a point of contention among certain groups. On another note, though, yes, the Qur'an is broadly considered 'literal', you have to remember that members of the Islamic community also have the Hadith (the stories of Muhammad's life) and that, even together, they don't cover every aspect of life.

On that same note, how often do you, Islamic members of NS, have to consult the Hadith?

[Virana]

On that same note, how often do you, Islamic members of NS, have to consult the Hadith?

None.

The most "reliable" Hadiths (as considered by Islamic scholars) were primarily compiled centuries after the Prophet's death through oral reports. Everyone's played the "say something and pass it on" game, and you know how much the words change by the time it reaches the end.

That's why I'm a Quranist.

[Constantinopolis]

Thank you, Ereria and Hazamaeia! That explains a lot. So, basically, any community or government or organization can build a mosque, and run it however they like. In some countries the government owns the mosques, while in other places they belong to the local communities. And imams are a sort of elected preachers, who may or may not run the mosque, and may only be chosen to lead the prayers on one particular day. Islam sounds very similar to evangelical Protestant groups within Christianity. They also have churches owned by the community, with elected presidents/preachers instead of clergy, and owned by the local community instead of any kind of formal religious institution.

It's interesting that mosques are open 24/7. Some churches are, but some aren't. In Orthodox Christianity the rule is that a church should be open 24/7, precisely because travelers or even local people might want to go and pray at night, but this rule isn't always respected (it usually depends on the level of trust in the community - since our churches almost always contain at least a bit of gold and silver, you need a high level of trust to leave them open with no one there). In small rural communities the church is typically left open.

So I have another question now. I know that Muslims pray 5 times a day, every day. But there are also special Friday prayers. Are these in addition to the regular daily prayers, or is there a special "Friday version" of the regular prayers? Also, are Muslims required to go to the mosque on Fridays (and/or special holidays) as long as they are able, or is it a matter of personal choice so that it's acceptable to stay home and pray if you like that better? Oh, and also... why is Friday the holy day of the week? For Christians, Sunday is the holy day because that is when Christ rose from the dead. Does Friday mark a particular event in Islam?

These are all questions about practice, but I also have one about religious doctrine: In Christianity, one of the oldest and most important controversies is whether souls are saved by faith and works (the Catholic and Orthodox view, that both belief and good deeds are required) or by faith alone (the Protestant view, that belief is the only thing that matters). What does Islam teach? Is it enough to be a Muslim, or do you have to be a good Muslim to attain paradise?

And what about those who are not Muslims? (in Christianity, different churches have different views about salvation for non-Christians - some say it's not possible, others say it is possible but more difficult than for Christians)

But the Quran is literal and shouldn't be interpreted in my knowledge. Am I wrong or is this not true?

I think any text, no matter how literal, always leaves some room for interpretation. This is especially true for stories that are supposed to contain some moral lesson - even when the story is literal (person X went to place Y and did Z), people will not agree completely on the precise moral lesson that they draw from it. And the Bible has a lot of stories like that. I suppose the Quran has parts like that as well, no?