NSGN | Tyler Kazakov DEAT'd!

[South Pacific Belschaft]

Lol at the Osiris v Lazarus debate. Defenders were against the OFO and were silent on the events of Lazarus (or in the case of some strongly supportive). The reverse can be said for raiders. Many people seem to fail to see the similarities between the two government change overs because it suits their own interest. Hypocrisy rules in gameplay, that much is clear.

Just pushing the boat out, the reason that the uproar was so muted in the Lazarene case was that all that really happened was a retheme and alignment change. Feux named Harmoneia his successor to the Phoenix Throne (or whatever it was called) in accordance with the inter-regionally recognized Lazarene Constitution at the time. Upon her ascension and her drastic measures to reform Lazarus, the forums weren't changed and no prominent members of the community were banjected from the region. These things were true of Osiris, and are key indicators of a coup. So its pretty understandable that there was more controversy surrounding the OFO than the PRL, really.

Harmoneia had no need to purge prominent members of the Lazarus community, as Feux had already done it for her.

[North East Somerset]

Just pushing the boat out, the reason that the uproar was so muted in the Lazarene case was that all that really happened was a retheme and alignment change. Feux named Harmoneia his successor to the Phoenix Throne (or whatever it was called) in accordance with the inter-regionally recognized Lazarene Constitution at the time. Upon her ascension and her drastic measures to reform Lazarus, the forums weren't changed and no prominent members of the community were banjected from the region.

What? That's just simply not true. Over 1/4 of Lazarus' Emerald Council, the legislative body of the region, were banjected for being "imperialists". Nothing in the Constitution justified this, and it was explicit that the membership of the Emerald Council should be removed by a 3/4 majority of the Emerald Council. The whole region was then rethemed with a large minority of legal participants having been illegally banned prior to this.

The primary reason an international uproar was so muted was because simultaneously to this all occurring there was chaos in Osiris which pushed Lazarus into the background.

[Drop Your Pants]

Lazarus has always been in the background in the GCR's. No one really cares about us, they just use the name to attack other groups or people. Like Bel is doing now

Seriously though, Lazarus has never been this alive. I expect Osiris is feeling the same. Whats the point in holding a grudge over a region that your not a member of (not addressed to NES, he's allowed hold a grudge)?

[Evil Lord Sauron]

As far as I know, in the absence of statements to the contrary, the UDL, the FRA (and all of its other member regions), 10000 Islands, Mordor, Spiritus, Wintreath, and whichever other defender regions I might be neglecting to mention still do not officially recognize the OFO as the legitimate government of Osiris.

Definitely clutching at straws with that. Mordor has never had any contact with Osiris under any capacity long before the OFO took over. It'd be extremely odd for a region that has had no relationship or contact to begin issuing statements reaffirming or dropping a non-existent embassy.

We as a region have no business in Osiris and have stayed out of Osiris from our own inception. During the entire 'purge' (for want of a better word and not wanting to use 'takeover' again) I was singled out and called an enemy of Osiris. Thankfully that tag was later rescinded. Mordor as a region, and myself personally have remained silent on the issue.

I've stated here previously that the parallels between OFO and PRL are similar and wish both the best of luck with their future endeavours and activity hoping that it provides long lasting stability to both.

If you like, so you can stop trying to drag us into whatever petty political thing you are trying to do, I can add an official Mordor header and post in our NSGP Embassy thread that Mordor has had no contact or relationship before or after the OFO takeover, and has zero interest in the matter.

[South Pacific Belschaft]

Lazarus has always been in the background in the GCR's. No one really cares about us, they just use the name to attack other groups or people. Like Bel is doing now

Seriously though, Lazarus has never been this alive. I expect Osiris is feeling the same. Whats the point in holding a grudge over a region that your not a member of (not addressed to NES, he's allowed hold a grudge)?

I wouldn't say I hold a grudge against Lazarus, or Milograd for that matter, and I was one of the few people who called what happened in both Lazarus and Osiris purges - what I am is intellectually honest enough to oppose such actions regardless of the ideological basis, alignment and objectives of those carrying them out; I didn't approve of either of them, primarily due to the importance I place on constitutional propriety. Lazarus is certainly more active and interesting than it has been since anytime I can remember, but the price it has paid for that is the abolition of genuine democracy and the rule of law. Is that a price worth paying? The pre-purge members of Lazarus who signed of on the process seem to believe so, but the Faustian bargain involved is not one I would have made. Milograd has brought activity, a new sense of purpose and relevancy to Lazarus; in return he gets to play at being a Communist Dictator. But from now on any rights and liberties you hold stem from his decision to allow you them, and should he become bored or otherwise feel like it he can and will make as great an effort to destroy Lazarus as he did TSP. When you make a deal with the devil, expect to get burned.

[Anthony Willman]

Newsflash: Anarchy has been invaded by The Black Riders. Defenders are forming resistance forces to fight back.

[SkyDip]

Newsflash: Anarchy has been invaded by The Black Riders. Defenders are forming resistance forces to fight back.

*rubs eyes, sighing in exasperation*

[Anthony Willman]

Newsflash: Anarchy has been invaded by The Black Riders. Defenders are forming resistance forces to fight back.

*rubs eyes, sighing in exasperation*

If you want to help, contact me.

[Sedgistan]

*rubs eyes, sighing in exasperation*

If you want to help, contact me.

Cut it out. This isn't your news thread.

[SkyDip]

*rubs eyes, sighing in exasperation*

If you want to help, contact me.

Just for perpetrating such idiocy across twelve different threads in this forum alone, I'm going to go support TBR in Anarchy.

[New Libertarian States]

If you want to help, contact me.

Just for perpetrating such idiocy across twelve different threads in this forum alone, I'm going to go support TBR in Anarchy.

If I wasn't in so many defender orgs. I would too

@Anthony Stahp spamming threads, let Karp,DYP, Mahaj, etc. recruit and do stuff like this.

[Port blood]

If you want to help, contact me.

Just for perpetrating such idiocy across twelve different threads in this forum alone, I'm going to go support TBR in Anarchy.

Sooooo,where is your endorsement?

[Drop Your Pants]

I wouldn't say I hold a grudge against Lazarus, or Milograd for that matter

When you make a deal with the devil, expect to get burned.

but the price it has paid for that is the abolition of genuine democracy and the rule of law

Weirdly we have a lot more laws now than before. We even have a court system (bloody stupid things).

should he become bored or otherwise feel like it he can and will make as great an effort to destroy Lazarus as he did TSP

There's always that threat from any delegate. Hell, we've had JAL as delegate.

[Evil Wolf]

JAL was delegate when there was no ban button and JAL was never a legal delegate, he only obtained that position for a brief time during his invasion attempt.

"We" didn't have him as Delegate at all, he was simply able to capture the region for a short period of time, aided by the FRA pulling out of the region and leaving Lazarus to its fate.

Why Milograd agreed to have Lazarus be an FRA member is beyond me, given their abysmal track record and history of maltreatment. My only logical explanation is so his government can appear more legitimate and have better protection. I dare say if he couped the region tomorrow and started throwing nations out by the hundreds the FRA would still support him because the action is "not against the PRL's laws" given how they are now a Defender dictatorship and they really have no laws protecting citizens.

All of these "laws" that the PRL has dictated upon Lazarus do nothing to protect the citizens and impart to them not one single right. All the "Civil Code of the People's Republic of Lazarus" does is outline what behavior will get you banned from the region. The only true law in the PRL is "Milo makes the laws". Even the Constitutional Articles, which outline "rights" for the few Lazarus citizens that have "declared" their citizenship on the forums, states quite clearly "Lazarenes may be removed at the Chairman's discretion if the Chairman can reasonably justify it legally".

Considering the Purge that Feux was able to "legally justify" in the last government, I don't think Milo will have much resistance when it comes to that front. And anyone who does resist? Well, he can simply Purge them.

[Sedgistan]

"We" didn't have him as Delegate at all, he was simply able to capture the region for a short period of time, aided by the FRA pulling out of the region and leaving Lazarus to its fate.

Why Milograd agreed to have Lazarus be an FRA member is beyond me, given their abysmal track record and history of maltreatment.

The FRA pulled out, as Lazarus's then delegate - you - had ordered your LWU forces to invade an FRA member region at the same time, and then tried to use the FRA's prioritisation of the defence of member regions as a stick to beat us with. It was undoubtedly a clever ploy (and one can certainly speculate whether JAL's coup was part of your scheme), but the only person who comes out in a bad light from that is you, who were more interested in scoring political points against the FRA than safeguarding the region you were supposed to be leading.

[Evil Wolf]

You don't even have your history right.

The West Pacific's Black Sheep Squadron was the one who invaded the former FRA member region, not LWU. It was their pointman, and it was their operation. We were in Lazarus per our treaty obligations.

The FRA, on the other hand, remained out of Lazarus, even when the BSS' operation ended, for no justifiable reason other than pure spite. It was clear then that they didn't care about Lazarus just as it is clear now, by accepted a defender dictator that no one voted for into their ranks, that they still don't care about Lazarus.

[Sedgistan]

Pretty sure you were running the BSS then.

[Cormacville]

So what you're saying then, Sedge, is that the FRA only defends regions whose Delegates do exactly what they want at all times, not only as Delegate of that region but everywhere else in NationStates as well?

That's extremely good to know.

[Evil Wolf]

No Sedge, I do believe the delegate of The West Pacific ran and still runs all armed forces of TWP. The Black Sheep Squadron was one such armed branch of the then named West Pacific Liberation Force. I haven't been so much as Minister of Defense in TWP, much less delegate.

Either way, your claims that LWU invaded a former FRA region during my time as Lazarus Delegate are false.

[Sedgistan]

So what you're saying then, Sedge, is that the FRA only defends regions whose Delegates do exactly what they want at all times, not only as Delegate of that region but everywhere else in NationStates as well?

That's extremely good to know.

I can't speak for the FRA's current policies - bear in mind that I'm commenting on a situation from 2008 or so (I really don't remember exactly when, and don't have access to the forums that would tell me). The FRA didn't defend Lazarus in that circumstance, as its Delegate was involved in directing an invasion of an FRA member region. If his priority was freeing Lazarus, he would've had those troops removed from the FRA region and supporting him in Lazarus, which would also have freed up FRA troops to help him out there.

As for FRA prioritisation, it has always put the security of member regions first, a policy that can't rationally be argued against.

[Cormacville]

I can't speak for the FRA's current policies - bear in mind that I'm commenting on a situation from 2008 or so (I really don't remember exactly when, and don't have access to the forums that would tell me). The FRA didn't defend Lazarus in that circumstance, as its Delegate was involved in directing an invasion of an FRA member region. If his priority was freeing Lazarus, he would've had those troops removed from the FRA region and supporting him in Lazarus, which would also have freed up FRA troops to help him out there.

As for FRA prioritisation, it has always put the security of member regions first, a policy that can't rationally be argued against.

I'm not arguing that the FRA shouldn't have defended a member region. Obviously, the security of member regions is going to take higher priority than the security of other regions. But that's only part of the argument you're making.

The other part of the argument is that the FRA didn't defend Lazarus because "its Delegate was involved in directing an invasion of an FRA member region." So what I'm saying is that what its Delegate was doing in and on behalf of another region should have had no bearing on whether you defended Lazarus, as there is more to regions than their Delegates and entire regions shouldn't be held responsible and punished for the actions of their Delegate in another region. Right?

[SkyDip]

Just for perpetrating such idiocy across twelve different threads in this forum alone, I'm going to go support TBR in Anarchy.

Sooooo,where is your endorsement?

Already there. Yours?

[The North Polish Union]

I can't speak for the FRA's current policies - bear in mind that I'm commenting on a situation from 2008 or so (I really don't remember exactly when, and don't have access to the forums that would tell me). The FRA didn't defend Lazarus in that circumstance, as its Delegate was involved in directing an invasion of an FRA member region. If his priority was freeing Lazarus, he would've had those troops removed from the FRA region and supporting him in Lazarus, which would also have freed up FRA troops to help him out there.

As for FRA prioritisation, it has always put the security of member regions first, a policy that can't rationally be argued against.

I'm not arguing that the FRA shouldn't have defended a member region. Obviously, the security of member regions is going to take higher priority than the security of other regions. But that's only part of the argument you're making.

The other part of the argument is that the FRA didn't defend Lazarus because "its Delegate was involved in directing an invasion of an FRA member region." So what I'm saying is that what its Delegate was doing in and on behalf of another region should have had no bearing on whether you defended Lazarus, as there is more to regions than their Delegates and entire regions shouldn't be held responsible and punished for the actions of their Delegate in another region. Right?

The FRA defends their member regions? This is news to me.

[SFBA wabbitslayah]

I'm not arguing that the FRA shouldn't have defended a member region. Obviously, the security of member regions is going to take higher priority than the security of other regions. But that's only part of the argument you're making.

The other part of the argument is that the FRA didn't defend Lazarus because "its Delegate was involved in directing an invasion of an FRA member region." So what I'm saying is that what its Delegate was doing in and on behalf of another region should have had no bearing on whether you defended Lazarus, as there is more to regions than their Delegates and entire regions shouldn't be held responsible and punished for the actions of their Delegate in another region. Right?

The FRA defends their member regions? This is news to me.

lol, don't start that bullshit again. The FRA can be fairly criticized for not being at the top of their game anymore, but even now they've been trying to assist Slavia.

[Kazmr]

I'm not arguing that the FRA shouldn't have defended a member region. Obviously, the security of member regions is going to take higher priority than the security of other regions. But that's only part of the argument you're making.

The other part of the argument is that the FRA didn't defend Lazarus because "its Delegate was involved in directing an invasion of an FRA member region." So what I'm saying is that what its Delegate was doing in and on behalf of another region should have had no bearing on whether you defended Lazarus, as there is more to regions than their Delegates and entire regions shouldn't be held responsible and punished for the actions of their Delegate in another region. Right?

The FRA defends their member regions? This is news to me.

Says the one who made an enormous fuss about being invaded after you quit the FRA