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Top Anti-Gay Group Attempts Public Meeting Over LGBT Rights

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Fascist Russian Empire
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Founded: Aug 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Fascist Russian Empire » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:13 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Condunum wrote:Sure, it's an excuse. An excuse that's also a cop-out to having to question one's own beliefs. Basically, saying "that's how I was raised" is saying you have no interest in learning new things, which is why it's a shitty excuse.


When you're talking about religion gut reactions and tradition there's really nothing to question, no logical line of evidence based inquiry leads to "gays are alright in my book" without believing something fundamentally different. It's not about failing to learn new things it's about failing to believe what you believe.

If I could input my opinion: Religious viewpoints don't always mean homophobic viewpoints. Even before I realized I was a homosexual, I was a very religious person and still supported LGBT rights. Even now, as a homosexual, I am a devout Christian. Religious opinions can serve both arguments, as the Bible tells people to love and tolerate others(which could be interpreted to mean regardless of sexual orientation).

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Ifreann
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:14 pm

Seperates wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The US is indeed a democracy.

No... it's a republic for the most part. Only one part of the process is democratic and even that has another official vote within government. Popular vote counts for shit.

Being a republic doesn't mean it's not a democracy. Being a republic basically means that the head of state isn't a king or queen.


Seperates wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
A republic is a democratic form of government.

Democratic. Not a 'democracy'.

A country under a democratic government is a democracy.
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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:20 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Seperates wrote:Democratic. Not a 'democracy'.


Not in the technical sense but when you won't let someone call a democratic form of government a democracy in common english you're being pedantic.

Perhaps, but defining terminology is important for communication's sake. So no, generally I have people specify what sort of government they mean because it helps figure out what the hell they are talking about. And while the United States can be called a "Democratic Republic", because there are such things as Non-Democratic Republics (which call also be called hereditary oligarchy, depending), but generally speaking in the context of government, you cannot just call any form of government in which the people can vote a "Democracy", because it essentially defeats and overly simplifies the reasons and methods on how the government operates the way it does.

We elect representatives. We do not directly decide every law. Therefore, it is a republic.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:23 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Seperates wrote:No... it's a republic for the most part. Only one part of the process is democratic and even that has another official vote within government. Popular vote counts for shit.

Being a republic doesn't mean it's not a democracy. Being a republic basically means that the head of state isn't a king or queen.


Seperates wrote:Democratic. Not a 'democracy'.

A country under a democratic government is a democracy.

I disagree with your terminology, but this off topic, so I will simply agree.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

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Ifreann
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:31 pm

Seperates wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
Not in the technical sense but when you won't let someone call a democratic form of government a democracy in common english you're being pedantic.

Perhaps, but defining terminology is important for communication's sake. So no, generally I have people specify what sort of government they mean because it helps figure out what the hell they are talking about. And while the United States can be called a "Democratic Republic", because there are such things as Non-Democratic Republics (which call also be called hereditary oligarchy, depending), but generally speaking in the context of government, you cannot just call any form of government in which the people can vote a "Democracy", because it essentially defeats and overly simplifies the reasons and methods on how the government operates the way it does.

You absolutely can call any government in which people can vote a democracy, because that's what the word means. That it does not fully describe the operation of the government does not mean it is wrong.

We elect representatives. We do not directly decide every law. Therefore, it is a republic.

Has there ever been a country in human history where every law was decided by referendum? I'm not aware of any. If we're going to make a point of differentiating between governments that pass every law by referendum and governments that don't, then should we also differentiate between governments that make use of the dread powers of black magic and those that don't?
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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:37 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Seperates wrote:Perhaps, but defining terminology is important for communication's sake. So no, generally I have people specify what sort of government they mean because it helps figure out what the hell they are talking about. And while the United States can be called a "Democratic Republic", because there are such things as Non-Democratic Republics (which call also be called hereditary oligarchy, depending), but generally speaking in the context of government, you cannot just call any form of government in which the people can vote a "Democracy", because it essentially defeats and overly simplifies the reasons and methods on how the government operates the way it does.

You absolutely can call any government in which people can vote a democracy, because that's what the word means. That it does not fully describe the operation of the government does not mean it is wrong.

We elect representatives. We do not directly decide every law. Therefore, it is a republic.

Has there ever been a country in human history where every law was decided by referendum? I'm not aware of any. If we're going to make a point of differentiating between governments that pass every law by referendum and governments that don't, then should we also differentiate between governments that make use of the dread powers of black magic and those that don't?

That's the point. There has not been such a thing as an actual democracy since Ancient Greece (and even that was limited to landed males). We have come as close as we can in our age of empires, but it is not democracy. And perhaps that's for the better. Lord knows the classical philosophers had issues with Athens. But again, off topic.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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Condunum
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:42 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Condunum wrote:How is there nothing to justify? I just said religion doesn't get a special ticket, thus there is something to justify. No one gets a cop-out to having to evaluate your beliefs. If you don't want to, fine, but you don't get to discuss them with the rest of us if you aren't willing to do so.


Because there isn't ANYTHING to justify. The entire idea of the Divine Command Theory is that wrong and right are dictated by the whims of a supreme being, whether something is wrong or right within the context of a religion it does not bear justification it is wrong because it is and it is right because it is.

But you have to justify Divine Command Theory, else that itself is a cop-out.
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The Treorai
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Treorai » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:44 pm

Ragnarum wrote:
The Treorai wrote:If you had understood it, you would know I was comparing your statement to that of something in George Orwell's 1984.


Never read it.

Most people haven't.

If you are being sarcastic, my point still stands.

If you are not, you are a part of the reason illiteracy is an actual problem.
Last edited by The Treorai on Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GOD-KING OF ABRASIVENESS

Dumb Ideologies wrote:It's a situation intrinsic to the committed ideologue. Whenever one makes a counter-argument the goalposts seem not only to move in two dimensions but also float several hundred thousand miles above the pitch whilst wearing cast-iron earplugs.

Rainbows and Rivers wrote:Dictators blaming America for all their problems? That's new.

Caninope wrote:If I think in my mind that the book sitting in front of me is Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows when it is in fact Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, 11th Edition, then it doesn't make me any more objectively correct.

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The Truth and Light
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Postby The Truth and Light » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:46 pm

The Treorai wrote:
Ragnarum wrote:
Never read it.

Most people haven't.

If you are being sarcastic, my point still stands.

If you are not, you are apart of the reason illiteracy is an actual problem.

"apart of the reason"

Anywhooooooo! 1984 is the pimple on the ass of literature in the English language.

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Resora
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Postby Resora » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:51 pm

The Treorai wrote:you are apart

Seriously?

Mistakes like those are not the type of thing one should make when writing about illiteracy.
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The Treorai
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Postby The Treorai » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:52 pm

Resora wrote:
The Treorai wrote:you are apart

Seriously?

Mistakes like those are not the type of thing one should make when writing about illiteracy.


Fucking. Goddamn. Keyboard.
GOD-KING OF ABRASIVENESS

Dumb Ideologies wrote:It's a situation intrinsic to the committed ideologue. Whenever one makes a counter-argument the goalposts seem not only to move in two dimensions but also float several hundred thousand miles above the pitch whilst wearing cast-iron earplugs.

Rainbows and Rivers wrote:Dictators blaming America for all their problems? That's new.

Caninope wrote:If I think in my mind that the book sitting in front of me is Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows when it is in fact Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, 11th Edition, then it doesn't make me any more objectively correct.

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:53 pm

The Treorai wrote:
Resora wrote:Seriously?

Mistakes like those are not the type of thing one should make when writing about illiteracy.


Fucking. Goddamn. Keyboard.

And this is why we don't rely on spell-check, and re-read what we write. Right? Right.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

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Menassa
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Menassa » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:54 pm

Seperates wrote:
The Treorai wrote:
Fucking. Goddamn. Keyboard.

And this is why we don't rely on spell-check, and re-read what we write. Right? Right.

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The Treorai
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Postby The Treorai » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:55 pm

Seperates wrote:
The Treorai wrote:
Fucking. Goddamn. Keyboard.

And this is why we don't rely on spell-check, and re-read what we write. Right? Right.

I don't rely on spell check, and I usually re-check my posts.. It was just an unfortunate occasion where my keyboard decided to fuck up in a rather ironic sentence.
GOD-KING OF ABRASIVENESS

Dumb Ideologies wrote:It's a situation intrinsic to the committed ideologue. Whenever one makes a counter-argument the goalposts seem not only to move in two dimensions but also float several hundred thousand miles above the pitch whilst wearing cast-iron earplugs.

Rainbows and Rivers wrote:Dictators blaming America for all their problems? That's new.

Caninope wrote:If I think in my mind that the book sitting in front of me is Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows when it is in fact Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, 11th Edition, then it doesn't make me any more objectively correct.

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Des-Bal
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:56 pm

Condunum wrote:But you have to justify Divine Command Theory, else that itself is a cop-out.


You can't justify divine command theory the entire idea is that it is beyond justification.
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Ifreann
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:56 pm

Seperates wrote:
Ifreann wrote:You absolutely can call any government in which people can vote a democracy, because that's what the word means. That it does not fully describe the operation of the government does not mean it is wrong.


Has there ever been a country in human history where every law was decided by referendum? I'm not aware of any. If we're going to make a point of differentiating between governments that pass every law by referendum and governments that don't, then should we also differentiate between governments that make use of the dread powers of black magic and those that don't?

That's the point. There has not been such a thing as an actual democracy since Ancient Greece (and even that was limited to landed males). We have come as close as we can in our age of empires, but it is not democracy. And perhaps that's for the better. Lord knows the classical philosophers had issues with Athens. But again, off topic.

Okay. New thread, ho!
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Condunum
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:00 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Condunum wrote:But you have to justify Divine Command Theory, else that itself is a cop-out.


You can't justify divine command theory the entire idea is that it is beyond justification.

Then, as I said, it is a cop-out.
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Des-Bal
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:06 pm

Condunum wrote:Then, as I said, it is a cop-out.


Then clearly cop-out just means someone disagreeing with you which goes back to initial statement it's a simple difference of opinion.
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Condunum
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:15 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Condunum wrote:Then, as I said, it is a cop-out.


Then clearly cop-out just means someone disagreeing with you which goes back to initial statement it's a simple difference of opinion.

No, a cop-out is something someone uses to get out of justifying their beliefs. Divine Command Theory is a cop-out that just happens to be the special little flower that gets to ignore the fact that it is a cop-out because it's a religious theory. There's nothing special about that which entitles it to be removed from scrutiny.
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The Serbian Empire
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:19 pm

If you want to silence the homophobes you drown them out with noise rather than by silencing them outright. That's my opinion on how to deal with undesirables in the forum of public debate.
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The 93rd Coalition
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Founded: Apr 27, 2013
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Postby The 93rd Coalition » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:33 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:
Your character attacks aside, this is simply a group of people exercising their right to free association.
You should do nothing to stop them, and should not be legally able to do anything to stop them from exercising this right.
If you find you disagree with another's opinion, you should attempt to either dissuade them of it or persuade others of your own.


And there we go.

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Especially Dirty Hippies
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Postby Especially Dirty Hippies » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:21 pm

I just love the premise that there is a class of Anti-Gay Groups that are called "Tops". It raises the question, who bottoms?

I picture an really militant gay bashing group breaking into a gay couples home, trashing the place, but then in the bathroom they find some medication for Lupus, and one of the skinheads has a sister with Lupus and now everybody feels bad and they fix everything and leave some muffins and a Hallmark "Sorry You Have Lupus" (tm) greeting card that plays a badly digitized snippet from Journey or something.

And they realize, they aren't going to be the TOP Anti-Gay Group.

Not this year.
In sixteenth-century Europe, the disease of virgins, or green sickness, was seen as a common disorder affecting young unmarried girls. Its symptoms included weakness, dietary disturbance, lack of menstruation and most significantly, a change in skin colour. Understanding of the condition turned puberty and virginity into medical problems, and proposed to cure them by bloodletting, diet, exercise, and marriage. - The Disease of Virgins, a book I saw a promo for while trying to learn how babies are made.

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Especially Dirty Hippies
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Postby Especially Dirty Hippies » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:23 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:If you want to silence the homophobes you drown them out with noise rather than by silencing them outright. That's my opinion on how to deal with undesirables in the forum of public debate.


You say "noise", which is a very open ended arsenal.

Can I blast homophobes with Axel F played fumbling on a Casio as a dance about only partially pantsed?
In sixteenth-century Europe, the disease of virgins, or green sickness, was seen as a common disorder affecting young unmarried girls. Its symptoms included weakness, dietary disturbance, lack of menstruation and most significantly, a change in skin colour. Understanding of the condition turned puberty and virginity into medical problems, and proposed to cure them by bloodletting, diet, exercise, and marriage. - The Disease of Virgins, a book I saw a promo for while trying to learn how babies are made.

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American Union
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Founded: Mar 30, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby American Union » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:23 pm

The best solution is to ignore them. Taking away their liberties is a knee-jerk reaction at best and a disgusting display of abuse at worst.
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Especially Dirty Hippies
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Postby Especially Dirty Hippies » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:24 pm

Condunum wrote:No, a cop-out is something someone uses to get out of justifying their beliefs. Divine Command Theory is a cop-out that just happens to be the special little flower that gets to ignore the fact that it is a cop-out because it's a religious theory. There's nothing special about that which entitles it to be removed from scrutiny.


Especially since "Divine Command Theory" is no longer a philosophical axiom, but just a very poor Cambodian Translation for the title of the film "The Prophecy" with Christopher Walken.
In sixteenth-century Europe, the disease of virgins, or green sickness, was seen as a common disorder affecting young unmarried girls. Its symptoms included weakness, dietary disturbance, lack of menstruation and most significantly, a change in skin colour. Understanding of the condition turned puberty and virginity into medical problems, and proposed to cure them by bloodletting, diet, exercise, and marriage. - The Disease of Virgins, a book I saw a promo for while trying to learn how babies are made.

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