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Morality and Ethics in Military Gameplay

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
Not a roleplaying forum.

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Southern Bellz
Diplomat
 
Posts: 628
Founded: Oct 04, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Southern Bellz » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:53 pm

I am a god.

NationStates to me is basically a political sandbox. The purpose of the sandbox is different for everyone. NationStates is an incredible game because there are very few game imposed rules. Most regional laws are completely made up, and can only be respected to the degree it can be enforced. It isn't immoral (thanks for correcting me) if I don't follow the set of rules you believe the game should work in.

Over the years I have found this game to be very fun sandbox to explore, from figuring out what the heck is going on, to my constructive and destructive endeavors. I knew that at any second Milograd could have torn down TSP, and just because I chose to build up my vision of the region, doesn't mean he is legitimately evil trying to tear it down.

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Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:55 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Afforess wrote:Why should natives have to move in order to protect themselves? If I wander around in the freeway, is it your right to run me down? Should women have to cover up in fear of being raped? Should natives have to move in order to be protected? These are all the same question in my eyes.
You better get your eyes checked.

This. So much.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Cerian Quilor
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Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:57 pm

The Black Hat Guy wrote:-SNIP-

Stop with the real world analogies. There is no real equivalent to raiding in the real wold.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Southern Bellz
Diplomat
 
Posts: 628
Founded: Oct 04, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Southern Bellz » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:58 pm

CQ if you don't stop, I might crash my car into you on purpose.

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Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:00 pm

The Black Hat Guy wrote:
Southern Bellz wrote:Comparing raiding to someone murdering someone with their car is kinda crazy.


It's a hyperbole, of course, but scaled down it's an appropriate analogy.


Morality doesn't work like that, Black Hat.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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The Black Hat Guy
Diplomat
 
Posts: 952
Founded: Feb 12, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Black Hat Guy » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:16 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:
The Black Hat Guy wrote:-SNIP-

Stop with the real world analogies. There is no real equivalent to raiding in the real wold.


As I've said in the past, morality is subjective. There is scarcely options when discussing morality but to use analogies, because they clearly explain commonly held standards of morality.

And I tried to tone down the analogies since the last person (was that you?) took issue with them. I only brought that one up because another had proposed a similar one, and I was pointing out its flaws.

Cerian Quilor wrote:
The Black Hat Guy wrote:It's a hyperbole, of course, but scaled down it's an appropriate analogy.

Morality doesn't work like that, Black Hat.


As in, you can't take actions happening on one scale and apply them as an analogy to another scale? Obviously I don't believe that raiding is anywhere near as bad as vehicular homicide. That being said, there's no reason why a debate about a less consequential issue cannot be applied, by analogy, to a greater one. If you don't like analogies about morality that's fine, I'll attempt to avoid them in the future (though it's harder to make my point without them), but small scale events can certainly be analogous to larger ones.

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The Grim Reaper
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Posts: 10526
Founded: Oct 08, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Grim Reaper » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:23 pm

The Black Hat Guy wrote:
As in, you can't take actions happening on one scale and apply them as an analogy to another scale? Obviously I don't believe that raiding is anywhere near as bad as vehicular homicide. That being said, there's no reason why a debate about a less consequential issue cannot be applied, by analogy, to a greater one. If you don't like analogies about morality that's fine, I'll attempt to avoid them in the future (though it's harder to make my point without them), but small scale events can certainly be analogous to larger ones.


What? Yes, if you're talking as a mathematician or a physicist - even then, you're not going to get far relating quantum theory to the physics of celestial bodies.

Your analogies all depend on warping the ideal of bodily sovereignty - the idea that living beings have power over the decisions they make regarding the physical body that allows them to continue living - and somehow relating it to raiding.

The reason women wearing the burqa is controversial is because it's a manifestation of a culture that oppresses women by removing their right to any form of unique identity or free speech, facet by facet.

The reason getting raped or being killed on a road are a problem is nowhere near the same as anything that results in or results from raiding.

That's why people take issue with your analogies in trying to prove some sort of military gameplay morality - because regional sovereignty is not the same as bodily sovereignty, and if you use analogies that don't depend on such you start to seem a little superficial.
If I can't play bass, I don't want to be part of your revolution.
Melbourne, Australia

A & Ω

Is "not a blood diamond" a high enough bar for a wedding ring? Artificial gemstones are better-looking, more ethical, and made out of PURE SCIENCE™.

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Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:30 pm

The Grim Reaper wrote:
The Black Hat Guy wrote:
As in, you can't take actions happening on one scale and apply them as an analogy to another scale? Obviously I don't believe that raiding is anywhere near as bad as vehicular homicide. That being said, there's no reason why a debate about a less consequential issue cannot be applied, by analogy, to a greater one. If you don't like analogies about morality that's fine, I'll attempt to avoid them in the future (though it's harder to make my point without them), but small scale events can certainly be analogous to larger ones.


What? Yes, if you're talking as a mathematician or a physicist - even then, you're not going to get far relating quantum theory to the physics of celestial bodies.

Your analogies all depend on warping the ideal of bodily sovereignty - the idea that living beings have power over the decisions they make regarding the physical body that allows them to continue living - and somehow relating it to raiding.

The reason women wearing the burqa is controversial is because it's a manifestation of a culture that oppresses women by removing their right to any form of unique identity or free speech, facet by facet.

The reason getting raped or being killed on a road are a problem is nowhere near the same as anything that results in or results from raiding.

That's why people take issue with your analogies in trying to prove some sort of military gameplay morality - because regional sovereignty is not the same as bodily sovereignty, and if you use analogies that don't depend on such you start to seem a little superficial.

Grim has won this thread. I wish I could have said it as well as he could.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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The Grim Reaper
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10526
Founded: Oct 08, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Grim Reaper » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:31 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:
The Grim Reaper wrote:
What? Yes, if you're talking as a mathematician or a physicist - even then, you're not going to get far relating quantum theory to the physics of celestial bodies.

Your analogies all depend on warping the ideal of bodily sovereignty - the idea that living beings have power over the decisions they make regarding the physical body that allows them to continue living - and somehow relating it to raiding.

The reason women wearing the burqa is controversial is because it's a manifestation of a culture that oppresses women by removing their right to any form of unique identity or free speech, facet by facet.

The reason getting raped or being killed on a road are a problem is nowhere near the same as anything that results in or results from raiding.

That's why people take issue with your analogies in trying to prove some sort of military gameplay morality - because regional sovereignty is not the same as bodily sovereignty, and if you use analogies that don't depend on such you start to seem a little superficial.

Grim has won this thread. I wish I could have said it as well as he could.


Even if I referred to a burqa analogy I seem to have hallucinated.

I can't find it anymore - did it ever exist?

EDIT: Afforess said it: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=268742&p=17255726#p17255726

My apologies to the Black Hat Guy if that wasn't an analogy he agreed with - however, his relating murder and rape to raiding is probably the more confusing of the analogies. The post probably should have been more directed to Afforess, but serves as a general opinion piece.
Last edited by The Grim Reaper on Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If I can't play bass, I don't want to be part of your revolution.
Melbourne, Australia

A & Ω

Is "not a blood diamond" a high enough bar for a wedding ring? Artificial gemstones are better-looking, more ethical, and made out of PURE SCIENCE™.

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The North Polish Union
Senator
 
Posts: 4159
Founded: Nov 13, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The North Polish Union » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:51 pm

Afforess wrote:
Southern Bellz wrote:I'm not a raider.

Yes you are, you are couping The South Pacific. The rest of the region just doesn't know it yet. Hi Milograd!

Wat?
Topid wrote:the sock puppet of my enemy is just the hand of my enemy in a warm and fuzzy wrapping.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.

.
Balansujcie dopóki się da, a gdy się już nie da, podpalcie świat!
Author of S.C. Res. № 137
POLAND
STRONG!

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Afforess
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1105
Founded: Jun 22, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Afforess » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:06 pm

The North Polish Union wrote:
Afforess wrote:Yes you are, you are couping The South Pacific. The rest of the region just doesn't know it yet. Hi Milograd!

Wat?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke
Minister of the Interior, Capitalist Paradise

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

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Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:17 pm

Afforess wrote:
The North Polish Union wrote:Wat?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke

Jokes on the internet usually require smilies. Its harder then even IRL to tell deadpan from serious crazy
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

User avatar
Mad Jack
Diplomat
 
Posts: 978
Founded: Nov 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mad Jack » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:12 am

Cerian Quilor wrote:Invasion is only meaningful if there is something to invade.

So make it opt-in, and it goes away.

Excellent. All problems solved.
Where is Someone Special?
<@Unibot> I don't care about defender unity.

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Mad Jack
Diplomat
 
Posts: 978
Founded: Nov 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mad Jack » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:14 am

Afforess wrote:Should women have to cover up in fear of being raped?.

Did you really just compare rape to being raided? :palm:
Where is Someone Special?
<@Unibot> I don't care about defender unity.

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Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:27 am

Mad Jack wrote:
Cerian Quilor wrote:Invasion is only meaningful if there is something to invade.

So make it opt-in, and it goes away.

Excellent. All problems solved.

yes, but The Max has already made clear he wants raiding to stay in the game. So solutions that result in raiding vanishing are a no-go.

Helpful suggestions would actually get you somewhere.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Blackbird
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 435
Founded: Antiquity
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Blackbird » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:05 am

Southern Bellz wrote:You took responsibility for the defense of your region.


Indeed. And I've done pretty well.

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Sedgistan
Senior Issues Moderator
 
Posts: 31917
Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:26 am

Afforess wrote:
Southern Bellz wrote:To use your analogy, if you wander around on a freeway, you no longer have an expectation of safety and you should understand you put yourself in danger.


Yes, thank you, that is all I need here. Debate over folks. Raiders just admitted they are scum. We can all go back to our lives.

Despite the disagreements, this debate was a civil one until your post. You've picked up several warnings for this kind of behaviour recently. Since the one day ban didn't work, have a *** 3 day ban for flaming/baiting *** and take note that if this behaviour continues, the inevitable result is the deletion of your nation. Change the way you conduct yourself on these forums, and do so now.

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The Black Hat Guy
Diplomat
 
Posts: 952
Founded: Feb 12, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Black Hat Guy » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:52 am

The Grim Reaper wrote:
The Black Hat Guy wrote:
As in, you can't take actions happening on one scale and apply them as an analogy to another scale? Obviously I don't believe that raiding is anywhere near as bad as vehicular homicide. That being said, there's no reason why a debate about a less consequential issue cannot be applied, by analogy, to a greater one. If you don't like analogies about morality that's fine, I'll attempt to avoid them in the future (though it's harder to make my point without them), but small scale events can certainly be analogous to larger ones.


What? Yes, if you're talking as a mathematician or a physicist - even then, you're not going to get far relating quantum theory to the physics of celestial bodies.

Your analogies all depend on warping the ideal of bodily sovereignty - the idea that living beings have power over the decisions they make regarding the physical body that allows them to continue living - and somehow relating it to raiding.

The reason women wearing the burqa is controversial is because it's a manifestation of a culture that oppresses women by removing their right to any form of unique identity or free speech, facet by facet.

The reason getting raped or being killed on a road are a problem is nowhere near the same as anything that results in or results from raiding.

That's why people take issue with your analogies in trying to prove some sort of military gameplay morality - because regional sovereignty is not the same as bodily sovereignty, and if you use analogies that don't depend on such you start to seem a little superficial.



I'll accept that reasoning - bodily sovereignty is quite different from property, but take note that until Afforess brought up the highway analogy, I did not make a single reference to bodily sovereignty, only sovereignty over property, a point which still stands.

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Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:16 am

Except that real property is of higher priority than a region page. The destruction of real property is more damaging and more permenant than what raiders do, even in the most extreme cases.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

User avatar
Astarial
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 442
Founded: Jul 12, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Astarial » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:15 pm

Cerian Quilor wrote:Except that real property is of higher priority than a region page. The destruction of real property is more damaging and more permenant than what raiders do, even in the most extreme cases.


And of course, neither raiders nor defenders are innocent of having destroyed forums, which are a hell of a lot closer to real property than a region page is. The premise that defenders are necessarily the good guys, and that defending is necessarily a good position, is flawed - believing that one is on a moral crusade can (and has been seen to) easily veer into acts that are far, far worse (a classification not limited to forum destruction alone).
Ballotonia: Astarial already phrased an answer very well. Hence I'll just say: "Me too."1
Purriest Kitteh, 2012

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