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Jedi 999
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Postby Jedi 999 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:14 am

so you liars and colonial attrocities lovers say the british were all good and cool i got a source which would make you shut up for life
see full article here : http://india_resource.tripod.com/colonial.html



The Colonial Legacy - Myths and Popular Beliefs

While few educated South Asians would deny that British Colonial rule was detrimental to the interests of the common people of the sub-continent - several harbor an illusion that the British weren't all bad. Didn't they, perhaps, educate us - build us modern cities, build us irrigation canals - protect our ancient monuments - etc. etc. And then, there are some who might even say that their record was actually superior to that of independent India's! Perhaps, it is time that the colonial record be retrieved from the archives and re-examined - so that those of us who weren't alive during the freedom movement can learn to distinguish between the myths and the reality.

Literacy and Education

Several Indians are deeply concerned about why literacy rates in India are still so low. So in the last year, I have been making a point of asking English-speaking Indians to guess what India's literacy rate in the colonial period might have been. These were Indians who went to school in the sixties and seventies (only two decades after independence) - and I was amazed to hear their fairly confident guesses. Most guessed the number to be between 30% and 40%. When I suggested that their guess was on the high side - they offered 25% to 35%. No one was prepared to believe that literacy in British India in 1911 was only 6%, in 1931 it was 8%, and by 1947 it had crawled to 11%! That fifty years of freedom had allowed the nation to quintuple it's literacy rate was something that almost seemed unfathomable to them. Perhaps - the British had concentrated on higher education ....? But in 1935, only 4 in 10,000 were enrolled in universities or higher educational institutes. In a nation of then over 350 million people only 16,000 books (no circulation figures) were published in that year (i.e. 1 per 20,000).

Urban Development

It is undoubtedly true that the British built modern cities with modern conveniences for their administrative officers. But it should be noted that these were exclusive zones not intended for the "natives" to enjoy. Consider that in 1911, 69 per cent of Bombay's population lived in one-room tenements (as against 6 per cent in London in the same year). The 1931 census revealed that the figure had increased to 74 per cent - with one-third living more than 5 to a room. The same was true of Karachi and Ahmedabad. After the Second World War, 13 per cent of Bombay's population slept on the streets. As for sanitation, 10-15 tenements typically shared one water tap!

Yet, in 1757 (the year of the Plassey defeat), Clive of the East India Company had observed of Murshidabad in Bengal: "This city is as extensive, populous and rich as the city of London..." (so quoted in the Indian Industrial Commission Report of 1916-18). Dacca was even more famous as a manufacturing town, it's muslin a source of many legends and it's weavers had an international reputation that was unmatched in the medieval world. But in 1840 it was reported by Sir Charles Trevelyan to a parliamentary enquiry that Dacca's population had fallen from 150,000 to 20,000. Montgomery Martin - an early historian of the British Empire observed that Surat and Murshidabad had suffered a similiar fate. (This phenomenon was to be replicated all over India - particularly in Awadh (modern U.P) and other areas that had offered the most heroic resistance to the British during the revolt of 1857.)

The percentage of population dependant on agriculture and pastoral pursuits actually rose to 73% in 1921 from 61% in 1891. (Reliable figures for earlier periods are not available.)

In 1854, Sir Arthur Cotton writing in "Public Works in India" noted: "Public works have been almost entirely neglected throughout India... The motto hitherto has been: 'Do nothing, have nothing done, let nobody do anything....." Adding that the Company was unconcerned if people died of famine, or if they lacked roads and water.

Nothing can be more revealing than the remark by John Bright in the House of Commons on June 24, 1858, "The single city of Manchester, in the supply of its inhabitants with the single article of water, has spent a larger sum of money than the East India Company has spent in the fourteen years from 1834 to 1848 in public works of every kind throughout the whole of its vast dominions."

Irrigation and Agricultural Development

There is another popular belief about British rule: 'The British modernized Indian agriculture by building canals'. But the actual record reveals a somewhat different story. " The roads and tanks and canals," noted an observer in 1838 (G. Thompson, "India and the Colonies," 1838), ''which Hindu or Mussulman Governments constructed for the service of the nations and the good of the country have been suffered to fall into dilapidation; and now the want of the means of irrigation causes famines." Montgomery Martin, in his standard work "The Indian Empire", in 1858, noted that the old East India Company "omitted not only to initiate improvements, but even to keep in repair the old works upon which the revenue depended."

The Report of the Bengal Irrigation Department Committee in 1930 reads: "In every district the Khals (canals) which carry the internal boat traffic become from time to time blocked up with silt. Its Khals and rivers are the roads end highways of Eastern Bengal, and it is impossible to overestimate the importance to the economic life of this part of the province of maintaining these in proper navigable order ....... " "As regards the revival or maintenance of minor routes, ... practically nothing has been done, with the result that, in some parts of the Province at least, channels have been silted up, navigation has become limited to a few months in the year, and crops can only be marketed when the Khals rise high enough in the monsoon to make transport possible".

Sir William Willcock, a distinguished hydraulic engineer, whose name was associated with irrigation enterprises in Egypt and Mesopotamia had made an investigation of conditions in Bengal. He had discovered that innumerable small destructive rivers of the delta region, constantly changing their course, were originally canals which under the English regime were allowed to escape from their channels and run wild. Formerly these canals distributed the flood waters of the Ganges and provided for proper drainage of the land, undoubtedly accounting for that prosperity of Bengal which lured the rapacious East India merchants there in the early days of the eighteenth century.. He wrote" Not only was nothing done to utilize and improve the original canal system, but railway embankments were subsequently thrown up, entirely destroying it. Some areas, cut off from the supply of loam-bearing Ganges water, have gradually become sterile and unproductive, others improperly drained, show an advanced degree of water-logging, with the inevitable accompaniment of malaria. Nor has any attempt been made to construct proper embankments for the Gauges in its low course, to prevent the enormous erosion by which villages and groves and cultivated fields are swallowed up each year."

"Sir William Willcock severely criticizes the modern administrators and officials, who, with every opportunity to call in expert technical assistance, have hitherto done nothing to remedy this disastrous situation, from decade to decade." Thus wrote G. Emerson in "Voiceless Millions," in 1931 quoting the views of Sir William Willcock in his "Lectures on the Ancient System of Irrigation in Bengal and its Application to Modern Problems" (Calcutta University Readership Lectures, University of Calcutta, 1930)

Modern Medicine and Life Expectancy

Even some serious critics of colonial rule grudgingly grant that the British brought modern medicine to India. Yet - all the statistical indicators show that access to modern medicine was severely restricted. A 1938 report by the ILO (International Labor Office) on "Industrial Labor in India" revealed that life expectancy in India was barely 25 years in 1921 (compared to 55 for England) and had actually fallen to 23 in 1931! In his recently published "Late Victorian Holocausts" Mike Davis reports that life expectancy fell by 20% between 1872 and 1921.

In 1934, there was one hospital bed for 3800 people in British India and this figure included hospital beds reserved for the British rulers. (In that same year, in the Soviet Union, there were ten times as many.) Infant mortality in Bombay was 255 per thousand in 1928. (In the same year, it was less than half that in Moscow.)

Poverty and Population Growth

Several Indians when confronted with such data from the colonial period argue that the British should not be specially targeted because India's problems of poverty pre-date colonial rule, and in any case, were exacerbated by rapid population growth. Of course, no one who makes the first point is able to offer any substantive proof that such conditions prevailed long before the British arrived, and to counter such an argument would be difficult in the absence of reliable and comparable statistical data from earlier centuries. But some readers may find the anecdotal evidence intriguing. In any case, the population growth data is available and is quite remarkable in what it reveals.

Between 1870 and 1910, India's population grew at an average rate of 19%. England and Wales' population grew three times as fast - by 58%! Average population growth in Europe was 45%. Between 1921-40, the population in India grew faster at 21% but was still less than the 24% growth of population in the US!

In 1941, the density of population in India was roughly 250 per square mile almost a third of England's 700 per square mile. Although Bengal was much more densely inhabited at almost 780 per square mile - that was only about 10% more than England. Yet, there was much more poverty in British India than in England and an unprecedented number of famines were recorded during the period of British rule.

In the first half of the 19th century, there were seven famines leading to a million and a half deaths. In the second half, there were 24 famines (18 between 1876 and 1900) causing over 20 million deaths (as per official records). W. Digby, noted in "Prosperous British India" in 1901 that "stated roughly, famines and scarcities have been four times as numerous, during the last thirty years of the 19th century as they were one hundred years ago, and four times as widespread." In Late Victorian Holocausts, Mike Davis points out that here were 31(thirty one) serious famines in 120 years of British rule compared to 17(seventeen) in the 2000 years before British rule.

Not surprising, since the export of food grains had increased by a factor of four just prior to that period. And export of other agricultural raw materials had also increased in similar proportions. Land that once produced grain for local consumption was now taken over by by former slave-owners from N. America who were permitted to set up plantations for the cultivation of lucrative cash crops exclusively for export. Particularly galling is how the British colonial rulers continued to export foodgrains from India to Britain even during famine years.

Annual British Government reports repeatedly published data that showed 70-80% of Indians were living on the margin of subsistence. That two-thirds were undernourished, and in Bengal, nearly four-fifths were undernourished.

Contrast this data with the following accounts of Indian life prior to colonization:-

" ....even in the smallest villages rice, flour, butter, milk, beans and other vegetables, sugar and sweetmeats can be procured in abundance .... Tavernier writing in the 17th century in his "Travels in India".

Manouchi - the Venetian who became chief physician to Aurangzeb (also in the 17th century) wrote: "Bengal is of all the kingdoms of the Moghul, best known in France..... We may venture to say it is not inferior in anything to Egypt - and that it even exceeds that kingdom in its products of silks, cottons, sugar, and indigo. All things are in great plenty here, fruits, pulse, grain, muslins, cloths of gold and silk..."

The French traveller, Bernier also described 17th century Bengal in a similiar vein: "The knowledge I have acquired of Bengal in two visits inclines me to believe that it is richer than Egypt. It exports in abundance cottons and silks, rice, sugar and butter. It produces amply for it's own consumption of wheat, vegetables, grains, fowls, ducks and geese. It has immense herds of pigs and flocks of sheep and goats. Fish of every kind it has in profusion. From Rajmahal to the sea is an endless number of canals, cut in bygone ages from the Ganges by immense labour for navigation and irrigation."

The poverty of British India stood in stark contrast to these eye witness reports and has to be ascribed to the pitiful wages that working people in India received in that period. A 1927-28 report noted that "all but the most highly skilled workmen in India receive wages which are barely sufficient to feed and clothe them. Everywhere will be seen overcrowding, dirt and squalid misery..."

This in spite of the fact that in 1922 - an 11 hour day was the norm (as opposed to an 8 hour day in the Soviet Union.) In 1934, it had been reduced to 10 hours (whereas in the Soviet Union, the 7 hour day had been legislated as early as in 1927) What was worse, there were no enforced restrictions on the use of child labour and the Whitley Report found children as young as five - working a 12 hour day.


see full article here : http://india_resource.tripod.com/colonial.html
Last edited by Jedi 999 on Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Maurepas
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Postby Maurepas » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:16 am

Fascinating post you have there, mon frère...

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Jedi 999
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Postby Jedi 999 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:19 am

Maurepas wrote:Fascinating post you have there, mon frère...

thanks

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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:20 am

Maurepas wrote:Fascinating post you have there, mon frère...

Un historique interessante, mon frere. (Pardon mon francais terribleux)


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Jedi 999
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Postby Jedi 999 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:22 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Maurepas wrote:Fascinating post you have there, mon frère...

Un historique interessante, mon frere. (Pardon mon francais terribleux)


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english and hindi are the only languages i can read

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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:23 am

Jedi 999 wrote:english and hindi are the only languages i can read

C'est vrai? Mon frere, c'est terribleux!

Different languages, after all, are truly beautiful. By the way, why do you speak the tongue of your former oppressors?
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Jedi 999
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Postby Jedi 999 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:25 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Jedi 999 wrote:english and hindi are the only languages i can read

C'est vrai? Mon frere, c'est terribleux!

Different languages, after all, are truly beautiful. By the way, why do you speak the tongue of your former oppressors?

well idk cause everybody here speaks it altough many hindi words are not used and english words are used instead for example cricket

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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:26 am

Jedi 999 wrote:well idk cause everybody here speaks it altough many hindi words are not used and english words are used instead for example cricket

You're eroding your own culture by submitting to the oppressive language of the British! You're playing right into their hands!
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Jedi 999
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Postby Jedi 999 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:27 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Jedi 999 wrote:well idk cause everybody here speaks it altough many hindi words are not used and english words are used instead for example cricket

You're eroding your own culture by submitting to the oppressive language of the British! You're playing right into their hands!

well its convienat like cricket in hindi becomes gol guttam lakad battam de danadan pratiyogita and instead of that just say cricket

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Jedi 999
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Postby Jedi 999 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:27 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Jedi 999 wrote:well idk cause everybody here speaks it altough many hindi words are not used and english words are used instead for example cricket

You're eroding your own culture by submitting to the oppressive language of the British! You're playing right into their hands!

well its easy like cricket in hindi becomes gol guttam lakad battam de danadan pratiyogita and instead of that just say cricket

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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:28 am

Jedi 999 wrote:well its convienat like cricket in hindi becomes gol guttam lakad battam de danadan pratiyogita and instead of that just say cricket

You're sacrificing your principles for a shorter word? How horrid.
Last edited by Conserative Morality on Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jedi 999
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Postby Jedi 999 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:29 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Jedi 999 wrote:well its convienat like cricket in hindi becomes gol guttam lakad battam de danadan pratiyogita and instead of that just say cricket

You're sacrificing your principles for a shorter word? How horrid.

well english is spoken everywhere even in non colonised countries

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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:30 am

Jedi 999 wrote:well english is spoken everywhere even in non colonised countries

Exactly. You're sacrificing your principles for an easier time of things. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Postby Tokos » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:30 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Jedi 999 wrote:well idk cause everybody here speaks it altough many hindi words are not used and english words are used instead for example cricket

You're eroding your own culture by submitting to the oppressive language of the British! You're playing right into their hands!


I find it hard to believe a modern-day Indian would believe the British are, at this point in time, given to mistreating Indians and exploiting them, given there are very many Indians that seem to be happy in Britain itself.
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Jedi 999
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Postby Jedi 999 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:31 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Jedi 999 wrote:well english is spoken everywhere even in non colonised countries

Exactly. You're sacrificing your principles for an easier time of things. You should be ashamed of yourself.

well stop trolling even people in countries never colonised by dirty brits speak english its easy altough sanskritized urdu is easy to but english is easy

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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:31 am

Tokos wrote:I find it hard to believe a modern-day Indian would believe the British are, at this point in time, given to mistreating Indians and exploiting them, given there are very many Indians that seem to be happy in Britain itself.

Yeah, I think he's bullshitting us in regard to the 'I live in India, totally' bit.
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Postby Jedi 999 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:32 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Tokos wrote:I find it hard to believe a modern-day Indian would believe the British are, at this point in time, given to mistreating Indians and exploiting them, given there are very many Indians that seem to be happy in Britain itself.

Yeah, I think he's bullshitting us in regard to the 'I live in India, totally' bit.

stay on topic and my op proves all your claims as lies

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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:32 am

Jedi 999 wrote:well stop trolling even people in countries never colonised by dirty brits speak english its easy altough sanskritized urdu is easy to but english is easy

I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out that your supposed principles aren't even so important as to allow you to forgo a bit of ease of communication for them.
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Postby Birnadia » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:32 am

My opinion on Jedi 999 = :rofl:
[align=center]

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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:32 am

Jedi 999 wrote:stay on topic and my op proves all your claims as lies

No, it doesn't. It's the mindless opinionated rambling of some guy on the internet. I believe him no more than I believe someone on here.
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Jedi 999
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Postby Jedi 999 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:33 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Jedi 999 wrote:well stop trolling even people in countries never colonised by dirty brits speak english its easy altough sanskritized urdu is easy to but english is easy

I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out that your supposed principles aren't even so important as to allow you to forgo a bit of ease of communication for them.

you wanna speak in hindi i am ready but i bet you dont even know know hindi

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Jedi 999
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Postby Jedi 999 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:34 am

Birnadia wrote:My opinion on Jedi 999 = :rofl:

my op proves your points as lies now eat it britishers

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Jedi 999
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Postby Jedi 999 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:35 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Jedi 999 wrote:stay on topic and my op proves all your claims as lies

No, it doesn't. It's the mindless opinionated rambling of some guy on the internet. I believe him no more than I believe someone on here.

it is a sourced arguement you cant say anything about the op and thus proves you closet british racist are liars
Last edited by Jedi 999 on Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Birnadia » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:35 am

Jedi 999 wrote:
Birnadia wrote:My opinion on Jedi 999 = :rofl:

my op proves your points as lies now eat it britishers

Britishers? That isn't even a word. Also, I didn't even make a point in that post.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:35 am

Jedi 999 wrote:you wanna speak in hindi i am ready but i bet you dont even know know hindi

I don't, because I support the Brits and Americans and what they've done, most of the time, at least. There are some unacceptable lapses.

On the other hand, I find myself with a slight distaste for historical India, and what it's done, been doing, and what's going on in the country today. I have no reason to learn Hindi, but every reason to know and speak English.
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