Non-binary genders

[East Sashimi]

Hi, I'm androgynous, and I'm neither confused nor "trying to be a special snowflake".

Good for you, as I just said I'm happy for you to call yourself whatever you want, to act like or be whatever you want, I just want you to know that I don't believe you are the gender that you say you are.
I don't dislike you or mean to offend you or anything, its just I don't think there is such thing as an 'androgynous' gender.

[Grenartia]

Hi, I'm androgynous, and I'm neither confused nor "trying to be a special snowflake".

Good for you, as I just said I'm happy for you to call yourself whatever you want, to act like or be whatever you want, I just want you to know that I don't believe you are the gender that you say you are.
I don't dislike you or mean to offend you or anything, its just I don't think there is such thing as an 'androgynous' gender.

I know exactly what you're saying. You're saying that you know me better than I know myself. And you're wrong.

Not acknowledging non-binary genders is like saying the Earth is flat.

[Linux and the X]

Hi, I'm androgynous, and I'm neither confused nor "trying to be a special snowflake".

Good for you, as I just said I'm happy for you to call yourself whatever you want, to act like or be whatever you want, I just want you to know that I don't believe you are the gender that you say you are.
I don't dislike you or mean to offend you or anything, its just I don't think there is such thing as an 'androgynous' gender.

[East Sashimi]

Good for you, as I just said I'm happy for you to call yourself whatever you want, to act like or be whatever you want, I just want you to know that I don't believe you are the gender that you say you are.
I don't dislike you or mean to offend you or anything, its just I don't think there is such thing as an 'androgynous' gender.

-An image with innapropriate words on it-

I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.
If not we could just agree to disagree before this turns to name calling and ad hominem.
Or alternatively we could just all get warnings and the thread is locked.

[Furious Grandmothers]

Hi, I'm androgynous, and I'm neither confused nor "trying to be a special snowflake".

Good for you, as I just said I'm happy for you to call yourself whatever you want, to act like or be whatever you want, I just want you to know that I don't believe you are the gender that you say you are.
I don't dislike you or mean to offend you or anything, its just I don't think there is such thing as an 'androgynous' gender.

[Rocopurr]

-An image with innapropriate words on it-

I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.
If not we could just agree to disagree before this turns to name calling and ad hominem.
Or alternatively we could just all get warnings and the thread is locked.

Fucking fucking fucking. You can fucking say fucking without getting fucking warned.

And hi, supposed confused special snowflake here as well. This most likely won't turn into ad hominem since no one here is exactly known to do that. Even if it did, I doubt this thread would be locked because two or three people got warned.

[Furious Grandmothers]

-An image with innapropriate words on it-

I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.
If not we could just agree to disagree before this turns to name calling and ad hominem.
Or alternatively we could just all get warnings and the thread is locked.

Well, fuck. Fucking fuckety fuck.

Scientific proof that reject what claim? What kind of scientific proof to you want? Is the fact that there are intersex people and people with other combinations of the sex chromosomes other than XX and XY good? Probably not, since sex isn't gender. Oh well.

Also, your fears of name-calling, ad hominems, warnings and thread-locking are unfounded.

[Grenartia]

-An image with innapropriate words on it-

1. I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

2. If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.
If not we could just agree to disagree before this turns to name calling and ad hominem.
Or alternatively we could just all get warnings and the thread is locked.

1. And you need to sit down and fucking realize that "innapropriate words" aren't against PG-13.

2. Would a link to the APA confirming the existence of non-binary gender work?
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression, or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice, or body characteristics. “Trans” is sometimes used as shorthand for “transgender.” While transgender is generally a good term to use, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-nonconforming will identify as a transgender person. The ways that transgender people are talked about in popular culture, academia, and science are constantly changing, particularly as individuals’ awareness, knowledge, and openness about transgender people and their experiences grow.

[East Sashimi]

I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.
If not we could just agree to disagree before this turns to name calling and ad hominem.
Or alternatively we could just all get warnings and the thread is locked.

Well, fuck. Fucking fuckety fuck.

Scientific proof that reject what claim? What kind of scientific proof to you want? Is the fact that there are intersex people and people with other combinations of the sex chromosomes other than XX and XY good? Probably not, since sex isn't gender. Oh well.

Also, your fears of name-calling, ad hominems, warnings and thread-locking are unfounded.

I just thought since this place has to be suitable for 13 year olds the 'f' word would be a bit innapropriate.
Also way to strawman there. I asked for scientific proof that non-binary genders exist and then you say something about intersex people which isn't really relevant and then tell me sex =/= gender, which I thought we already knew.

Also to the other person who said my views are ludicrous, if not believing in a concept about how gender works which has no scientific proof, and which is pretty much only believed by a few extreme left LGBT people is ludicrous then well I'm glad to be ludicrous.

[Johnw9171]

DNA. XX. XY. Even if there's a genetic defect, a Y means male and no Y means female.

[East Sashimi]

1. I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

2. If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.
If not we could just agree to disagree before this turns to name calling and ad hominem.
Or alternatively we could just all get warnings and the thread is locked.

1. And you need to sit down and fucking realize that "innapropriate words" aren't against PG-13.

2. Would a link to the APA confirming the existence of non-binary gender work?
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression, or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice, or body characteristics. “Trans” is sometimes used as shorthand for “transgender.” While transgender is generally a good term to use, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-nonconforming will identify as a transgender person. The ways that transgender people are talked about in popular culture, academia, and science are constantly changing, particularly as individuals’ awareness, knowledge, and openness about transgender people and their experiences grow.

This is proof that some people think they aren't male or female, not that non-binary genders exist and frankly I find it insulting to trans people that this article basically says everyone who doesn't conform to the norms about gender has the option to use the label 'trans'.

[Linux and the X]

-An image with innapropriate words on it-

I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

Yes, and?

If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.

"Permutations of gender which do not fit the binary are as much a part of gender as its most normative instance." (Butler, J. (2004). Undoing gender. Abington, Oxfordshire: Routledge.)

"Gender is not as simple as 'this or that'[;] there are not two distinct genders." (Carothers, B. and Reis H. (2013). Men and women are from Earth: Examining the latent structure of gender. J Pers. & Soc. Psych., 104(2), pp. 385-407. doi:10.1037/a0030437)

"Gender phenomena are not only multidimensional but multifactorial." (Spence, J. (1993). Gender-related traits and gender ideology: Evidence for a multifactorial theory. J Pers. & Soc. Psych., 64(4), pp. 624-35.)

"Mental health professionals should not impose a binary view of gender." (World Professional Association for Transgender Health (2011). Standards of Care. Minneapolis, MN: Author.)

[Grenartia]

Well, fuck. Fucking fuckety fuck.

Scientific proof that reject what claim? What kind of scientific proof to you want? Is the fact that there are intersex people and people with other combinations of the sex chromosomes other than XX and XY good? Probably not, since sex isn't gender. Oh well.

Also, your fears of name-calling, ad hominems, warnings and thread-locking are unfounded.

I just thought since this place has to be suitable for 13 year olds the 'f' word would be a bit innapropriate.
Also way to strawman there. I asked for scientific proof that non-binary genders exist and then you say something about intersex people which isn't really relevant and then tell me sex =/= gender, which I thought we already knew.

Also to the other person who said my views are ludicrous, if not believing in a concept about how gender works which has no scientific proof, and which is pretty much only believed by a few extreme left LGBT people is ludicrous then well I'm glad to be ludicrous.

They're already saying it anyways. Its like worrying about a house catching on fire after its already burned to the ground.

DNA. XX. XY. Even if there's a genetic defect, a Y means male and no Y means female.

Sex. Its not the same thing as gender.

1. And you need to sit down and fucking realize that "innapropriate words" aren't against PG-13.

2. Would a link to the APA confirming the existence of non-binary gender work?
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx

1. This is proof that some people think they aren't male or female, not that non-binary genders exist and 2. frankly I find it insulting to trans people that this article basically says everyone who doesn't conform to the norms about gender has the option to use the label 'trans'.

1. And the difference between the two is? Absolutely nothing. Gender is a state of mind. If you think you're X gender, you ARE X gender.

2. Where are you getting that load of bullshit from? How much did it cost you to buy it? I need some to fertilize my front lawn.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Personally I believe there are only two genders. If you don't think you are either of them you are either confused or trying to be a special snowflake.
However what you identity as is none of anyone's business apart from your own, and by identifying as something other than male or female, although it's incorrect, your not causing anyone else harm or problems. You can call yourself a third gender and ask for me to call you xe, zhe, zhem whatever you want, as long as what you are doing isn't causing harm to others I'm happy to accept you and let you live your life believing that you are whatever you want to think you are.

Obviously if you are intersex or trans that's a totally different issue, but from what I know most intersex people happily identity as either male or female, and the only trans person I know in real life thinks that everything queer that isn't either l, g, b or t is completly made up, tumblr first world problem nonsense.

Hi, I'm a trans person, I think tumblrisms are bullshit and (ironically), transphobic. But please! Tell me more about how you know someone's identity better than they do!

(Hint: you don't)

[Furious Grandmothers]

Well, fuck. Fucking fuckety fuck.

Scientific proof that reject what claim? What kind of scientific proof to you want? Is the fact that there are intersex people and people with other combinations of the sex chromosomes other than XX and XY good? Probably not, since sex isn't gender. Oh well.

Also, your fears of name-calling, ad hominems, warnings and thread-locking are unfounded.

I just thought since this place has to be suitable for 13 year olds the 'f' word would be a bit innapropriate.
Also way to strawman there. I asked for scientific proof that non-binary genders exist and then you say something about intersex people which isn't really relevant and then tell me sex =/= gender, which I thought we already knew.

Also to the other person who said my views are ludicrous, if not believing in a concept about how gender works which has no scientific proof, and which is pretty much only believed by a few extreme left LGBT people is ludicrous then well I'm glad to be ludicrous.

Which is exactly why regarding the intersex point, I said:

Probably not, since sex isn't gender. Oh well.

You know, just in case you thought they were the same. But somehow even though you know they aren't the same, you believing that there are only two genders? How does that even work out in your mind without causing cognitive dissonance or contradiction in the logic? Take me through your reasoning.

Also, regarding no scientific proof, see Linux's post which has done all the work for me digging up the scientific proof. Unless you simultaneously have some extraordinary understanding of the term "scientific proof", too.

[The Steel Magnolia]

1. And you need to sit down and fucking realize that "innapropriate words" aren't against PG-13.

2. Would a link to the APA confirming the existence of non-binary gender work?
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx

This is proof that some people think they aren't male or female, not that non-binary genders exist and frankly I find it insulting to trans people that this article basically says everyone who doesn't conform to the norms about gender has the option to use the label 'trans'.

Buddy, you're cis. You have no fucking say in what is and isn't insulting to us.

I however, do!

And you know what I find insulting here?

You.

[The Steel Magnolia]

DNA. XX. XY. Even if there's a genetic defect, a Y means male and no Y means female.

Actually that's not true.

There are, more or less, three definitions of sex used in biology: genetic sex, gonadal sex, and phenotypic sex.

Genetic sex is the ~chromosomes~ one. In mammals, the Y chromosome normally contains a gene named SRY, which is the main trigger that causes a fetus to begin developing along a male pathway. Occasionally, due to random errors in the process of copying DNA, an SRY gene can fall off a Y chromosome or even jump over to an X chromosome: this is one of the ways you get people with XX chromosomes who develop physically as male, or people with XY chromosomes who develop physically as female. (There are other ways too, related to other genetic or environmental factors.) Now, the thing about genetic sex is that it's not actually used all that often by working biologists outside of the field of molecular genetics -- there's usually no point looking at chromosomes if what you're interested in is anatomy or biochemistry. So chromosomal sex is by no means the final word on whether we call an organism "male" or "female".

Gonadal sex is probably the one that gets used most often by biologists when they're identifying whether the unfortunate little critter they've just dissected is male or female: it's whether an animal has testes, ovaries, or something in between. While we don't yet have the technology to give trans women ovaries or trans men testes, long-term hormone therapy does render the birth gonads mostly non-functional, and of course they can also be surgically removed.

Phenotypic sex is the one that's of most interest to you and me in our daily lives. It refers to the development of sexually dimorphic characteristics, such as genital organs, and facial and body hair. It's mostly influenced by sex hormones, and there's a great deal that modern medicine can do to bring a trans person's sexual characteristics closer to their target sex than their birth sex. Phenotypic sex is just as biologically valid a definition of sex as the other two, and unless you're planning to either perform medical procedures on someone or have kids with them, it's the only one that's likely to have much relevance to you when you interact with other people.

Finally, we humans add an extra layer on top of all this, which we call gender. Gender includes all of the standards that are used in a society to differentiate men from women (and other genders, in cultures or subcultures that recognise more than two genders). Some of the characteristics by which people are categorised into one gender or another are related to phenotypic sex, but others are purely behavioural -- dress, grooming and so on. There are differences between gender expression and gender, but we won't get into that now.

So when it comes to how we decide whether to call someone a man or a woman, chromosomes are really a very small part of the story. After all, societies were categorising people into genders long before chromosomes were even discovered, and we easily discern whether people are men or women every day without it even occurring to us to look at their chromosomes first.

[Schrattal]

DNA. XX. XY. Even if there's a genetic defect, a Y means male and no Y means female.

That's sex, not gender. And still incorrect.

[Northern Teljadid]

I suppose I recognise them. Still a bit strange to me, but I'll get it.

[Grenartia]

This is proof that some people think they aren't male or female, not that non-binary genders exist and frankly I find it insulting to trans people that this article basically says everyone who doesn't conform to the norms about gender has the option to use the label 'trans'.

Buddy, you're cis. You have no fucking say in what is and isn't insulting to us.

I however, do!

And you know what I find insulting here?

You.

Getting sigged.

[Neutraligon]

I suppose I recognise them. Still a bit strange to me, but I'll get it.

Hey as long as you are working at it. The most basic ID is that gender is how you think of yourself, so do you see yourself as male female, both, neither, something else. So when you think of yourself, do you think he/she?

[Neutraligon]

1. And you need to sit down and fucking realize that "innapropriate words" aren't against PG-13.

2. Would a link to the APA confirming the existence of non-binary gender work?
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx

This is proof that some people think they aren't male or female, not that non-binary genders exist and frankly I find it insulting to trans people that this article basically says everyone who doesn't conform to the norms about gender has the option to use the label 'trans'.

That is quite literally the accepted definition of trans in the community. I don't get why the hell you, who is not trans should feel insulted about it.

[Zweite Alaje]

I think it's funny how everyone thinks English is such a flawed language and needs to have all these foreign aspects added to it, or that it "isn't logical". There is no such thing as an illogical language.

Agreed, but...

I wonder what a Wikipedia in Pirahã would be like.

There would be LOOOOOOOOOOTS of effort explaining concepts that to us seem silly.

OMG, a wiki in Pirahã would be so amazing!!!

Hi, I'm androgynous, and I'm neither confused nor "trying to be a special snowflake".

Good for you, as I just said I'm happy for you to call yourself whatever you want, to act like or be whatever you want, I just want you to know that I don't believe you are the gender that you say you are.
I don't dislike you or mean to offend you or anything, its just I don't think there is such thing as an 'androgynous' gender.

Yeah, sorry, you don't get to tell people that what they identify as doesn't exist.

[Souseiseki]

DNA. XX. XY. Even if there's a genetic defect, a Y means male and no Y means female.

its funny because there are XX males and XY females

[East Sashimi]

Okay so I wrote everyone a nice little response, but then I got a powercut and lost everything, so sorry if this seems a little rushed.

What Linux said:

I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

Yes, and?

If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.

"Permutations of gender which do not fit the binary are as much a part of gender as its most normative instance." (Butler, J. (2004). Undoing gender. Abington, Oxfordshire: Routledge.)

"Gender is not as simple as 'this or that'[;] there are not two distinct genders." (Carothers, B. and Reis H. (2013). Men and women are from Earth: Examining the latent structure of gender. J Pers. & Soc. Psych., 104(2), pp. 385-407. doi:10.1037/a0030437)

"Gender phenomena are not only multidimensional but multifactorial." (Spence, J. (1993). Gender-related traits and gender ideology: Evidence for a multifactorial theory. J Pers. & Soc. Psych., 64(4), pp. 624-35.)

"Mental health professionals should not impose a binary view of gender." (World Professional Association for Transgender Health (2011). Standards of Care. Minneapolis, MN: Author.)

My response:
Fair enough, this shows that a fair few people believe that gender binary isn't exactly right, but like religion I think this argument is never going to be possible to say a definite yes or no to who is right and who is wrong because getting proper scientific evidence for this issue is difficult. You've got my respect now for actually showing some sources to your beliefs, although my respect is probably not worth much to you guys.

What Grenartia said:

I just thought since this place has to be suitable for 13 year olds the 'f' word would be a bit innapropriate.
Also way to strawman there. I asked for scientific proof that non-binary genders exist and then you say something about intersex people which isn't really relevant and then tell me sex =/= gender, which I thought we already knew.

Also to the other person who said my views are ludicrous, if not believing in a concept about how gender works which has no scientific proof, and which is pretty much only believed by a few extreme left LGBT people is ludicrous then well I'm glad to be ludicrous.

They're already saying it anyways. Its like worrying about a house catching on fire after its already burned to the ground.

DNA. XX. XY. Even if there's a genetic defect, a Y means male and no Y means female.

Sex. Its not the same thing as gender.

1. This is proof that some people think they aren't male or female, not that non-binary genders exist and 2. frankly I find it insulting to trans people that this article basically says everyone who doesn't conform to the norms about gender has the option to use the label 'trans'.

1. And the difference between the two is? Absolutely nothing. Gender is a state of mind. If you think you're X gender, you ARE X gender.

2. Where are you getting that load of bullshit from? How much did it cost you to buy it? I need some to fertilize my front lawn.

My response:
1.If a person thinks they are a dragon, they do not become a dragon.
But I know you guys here that same argument all the time so here's a better answer:
It is possible for a person's gender to be different to what they think their gender is. For example, in their teens many people go through a phase of liking the same gender, but it is only a phase and before long they go straight again.
Some people feel like they are trapped in the wrong body. For many of these people they will genuinely be trans, however a small minority will just going through a phase.
There have been examples where somebody thinks they are trans, start hrt, maybe even had srs but then realise they made a mistake and that their gender and sex had actually matched the whole time. They thought their gender was the opposite to their sex, but just because they thought it was their gender for that phase doesn't mean it genuinely was.
2.I got that A* quality bullshit straight from your source, maybe you should try reading all of it.

What the Steel Magnolia said

Personally I believe there are only two genders. If you don't think you are either of them you are either confused or trying to be a special snowflake.
However what you identity as is none of anyone's business apart from your own, and by identifying as something other than male or female, although it's incorrect, your not causing anyone else harm or problems. You can call yourself a third gender and ask for me to call you xe, zhe, zhem whatever you want, as long as what you are doing isn't causing harm to others I'm happy to accept you and let you live your life believing that you are whatever you want to think you are.

Obviously if you are intersex or trans that's a totally different issue, but from what I know most intersex people happily identity as either male or female, and the only trans person I know in real life thinks that everything queer that isn't either l, g, b or t is completly made up, tumblr first world problem nonsense.

Hi, I'm a trans person, I think tumblrisms are bullshit and (ironically), transphobic. But please! Tell me more about how you know someone's identity better than they do!

(Hint: you don't)

My response
I don't remember saying that I know more about other people than they do themselves, but it may well of sounded like I was saying, which I am sorry for.
However if you are saying that I don't know about trans people or people who differ from what is considered normal in terms of gender and sexual preferences you are wrong.
I am myself bisexual and I currently shitting myself thinking about booking an appointment with my gp to discuss my gender identity issues, (im not saying any medical guy has said i'm definitely trans or that i've had any of the abuse or problems you might of faced) which is even harder seeing as I'm about to start a bunch of exams which will decide what career i'll get, and i'm as far in the closet you can get due to heavily religious conservative parents, lack of people who will support me and a bad national health care service but i know i've got to come out soon if I want to be young enough to pass eventually. In fact the only real advice I've had was from 4chan's /lgbt/ board who are mainly just obsessed with penises.

Anyway what i'm trying to say is not everybody with gender or sexual issues is a liberal or believes in non-binary genders.

What furious Grandmothers said:

I just thought since this place has to be suitable for 13 year olds the 'f' word would be a bit innapropriate.
Also way to strawman there. I asked for scientific proof that non-binary genders exist and then you say something about intersex people which isn't really relevant and then tell me sex =/= gender, which I thought we already knew.

Also to the other person who said my views are ludicrous, if not believing in a concept about how gender works which has no scientific proof, and which is pretty much only believed by a few extreme left LGBT people is ludicrous then well I'm glad to be ludicrous.

Which is exactly why regarding the intersex point, I said:

Probably not, since sex isn't gender. Oh well.

You know, just in case you thought they were the same. But somehow even though you know they aren't the same, you believing that there are only two genders? How does that even work out in your mind without causing cognitive dissonance or contradiction in the logic? Take me through your reasoning.

Also, regarding no scientific proof, see Linux's post which has done all the work for me digging up the scientific proof. Unless you simultaneously have some extraordinary understanding of the term "scientific proof", too.

My response:
Yes I can believe both sex =/= gender and that there are only 2 genders without contradicting myself.

Okay steel magnolia I've already done a response to you but I will add that i'm surprised you are okay with anyone who has gender issues being called trans, and that i'm suprised you are a feminist seeing how many of them hate trans people.

What Neutraligon said:

This is proof that some people think they aren't male or female, not that non-binary genders exist and frankly I find it insulting to trans people that this article basically says everyone who doesn't conform to the norms about gender has the option to use the label 'trans'.

That is quite literally the accepted definition of trans in the community. I don't get why the hell you, who is not trans should feel insulted about it.

Trans is generally not considered the same as anyone with gender issues from what I've gathered talking to a lot of lgbt people online. I'm not insulted by it myself but I can see why many trans people would be. A lot of them don't want every autogynophile fetishist hopping onto their movement.

Okay I've got to do some work now so I probably won't reply for a few hours, or maybe a day or two.