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Gay marriages....now what about siblings parents or animals?

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Llamalandia
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Postby Llamalandia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:35 pm

YellowApple wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:
Ok well guess what like most people I'm pretty darn lazy so indulge me while I shift the burden unfairly back to you, how would you decide cases in which, a biological parent is as equally qualified as a non-biological parent? In fact, by what right do any biological parents get to raise their children, after all wouldn't it be best to take every infant away from its parents at birth and then have the govt determine who out of any number of millions of prospective parents is best suited to raise said child, that is if you're arguing for a best interest model of child custody? My point is this is in fact best decided by the political processes and peoples will and not by so-called experts. Now obviously our system is flexible enough as it currently is to remove children from bad situations (at least usually before they turn fatal) and place them in foster care but absent some compelling reason to do so, guess what we don't remove kids from bio parents, it sounds like based on you line of reasoning that perhaps we should but you know why we don't because society as a collective through the political process has decided that it isn't really the best thing to do, that even if some kids might be slightly better off with non-bio parents we feel it is more important that be raised by parents who are genetically related to them. :roll:


Well, a child feeling attachment to a parent is not necessarily biological, but rather very much psychological (see also: Ainsworth's attachment theory); thus, whether or not a bio-parent is or is not more suitable as a caregiver than a non-bio-parent is very much dependent on the individual child and his/her attachment to the caregivers in question. For example, preferring a caregiver who only saw her child once in 12 years but is the biological parent (and is otherwise fit for parenthood) versus a caregiver who was present throughout the child's life but is not the biological parent would, in fact, likely cause trauma to the child, who now will experience significant difficulty regarding this biological parent as his/her mother instead of the non-biological caregiver he had grown up considering to be his mother. While that is a very extreme case, it underlines why preferring biological parents with no questions asked is not always in a child's best interests.


Right keep in mind though that even as late as 93 some courts have continued to subordinate the best interests of the child to the rights of the parent in many circumstances. Also at this point I'm looking for some system of determining who should raise every child on the basis of pure best interests, we're tailing raise them from birth here, I don't think anyone would seriously advocate in favor such system I'm merely asking for someone to imagine one for me because my imagination is currently in the shop for repairs :p

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7 Deadly Sins
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Postby 7 Deadly Sins » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:38 pm

Why not, it'll make things more interesting and has been done in the past :p

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YellowApple
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Postby YellowApple » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:45 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
YellowApple wrote:
Well, a child feeling attachment to a parent is not necessarily biological, but rather very much psychological (see also: Ainsworth's attachment theory); thus, whether or not a bio-parent is or is not more suitable as a caregiver than a non-bio-parent is very much dependent on the individual child and his/her attachment to the caregivers in question. For example, preferring a caregiver who only saw her child once in 12 years but is the biological parent (and is otherwise fit for parenthood) versus a caregiver who was present throughout the child's life but is not the biological parent would, in fact, likely cause trauma to the child, who now will experience significant difficulty regarding this biological parent as his/her mother instead of the non-biological caregiver he had grown up considering to be his mother. While that is a very extreme case, it underlines why preferring biological parents with no questions asked is not always in a child's best interests.


Right keep in mind though that even as late as 93 some courts have continued to subordinate the best interests of the child to the rights of the parent in many circumstances. Also at this point I'm looking for some system of determining who should raise every child on the basis of pure best interests, we're tailing raise them from birth here, I don't think anyone would seriously advocate in favor such system I'm merely asking for someone to imagine one for me because my imagination is currently in the shop for repairs :p


In terms of pure best interests, it doesn't really matter who it is who starts raising the child at birth, so long as the caregiver(s) is/are not mentally inclined to bring harm to the child.

What does matter is ensuring that the child's guardianship remains consistent, and is determined by who the child has become attached to in a child-parent relationship, rather than whose genetic material happened to create the child. If the child has become attached to two fathers, or two mothers, or even a heterosexual parent/step-parent arrangement, Ainsworth's research would be consistent with the idea of maintaining those existing relationships rather than severing them in favor of the child being in the custody of a biological parent.

Likewise, if one parental relationship is dysfunctional, while the other is healthy, then the healthy one should by all means be the one preferred, regardless of whose genes are in the child. If that healthy relationship is with a step-parent, then so be it.

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Person012345
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Postby Person012345 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:23 pm

Llamalandia wrote:What i mean to say by instinctively immoral is that even without being taught that it is wrong I would never the less find it to be wrong and something to avoid in life.

Well you're wrong. Don't take that offensively, I just think your belief that it's "wrong" is wrong.

I also am fairly sure that you'll find it to be incompatible with other moral basis you hold, so you might want to reconsider or reconcile those.

Also, do you seriously find it hot in reality, and in your own personal life, I mean have you actually engaged in it or are you merely fetishizing it which I believe is a little different, after all many people have fetishes they never act out on nor would act out on because they are morally reprehensible (i.e. rape). :)

I don't know what you mean. I find incest to be hot. It's certainly a fetish but I totally would do it if the opportunity existed. Actually, I'd probably be more able to do it with my hypothetical sister than with anyone else since I'm completely socially incapable and one can assume I would be more comfortable socially around my sister than some girl I am making a feeble attempt to chat up. There's nothing wrong with it you just have weird sensibilities.

I do have a fine ass cousin who I would totally tap. Although I have not for numerous reasons, not relating to any morality around the act. You can telegram me if you wish to know more.

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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:02 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Urmanian wrote:gay people can create families

Yes, but not families in which the children are directly genetically related to both of the two married parents in the Chromosomal sense. :)


Give us about a decade or two,and we can probably do it.

Also, what about straight couples that can't have children that have chromosomes from both parents? Are those families somehow inferior to couples with children that do have chromosomes from both parents?
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Meryuma
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Postby Meryuma » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:08 pm

Cosara wrote:
Meryuma wrote:
As a gay person, I can tell you factually and objectively that I was rather surprised to find out I was into boys.

As for the slippery slope argument, how come fundamentalist Mormons and fundamentalist Muslims (both homophobic groups) are the most well-known modern supporters of polygamy? How come zoophilia is legal in Montana, Texas and Alabama but not in Washington, New York or California? How come first-cousin marriage is legal in Tennessee, Alabama, South Carolina and Florida but not Washington or Oregon?

1) Doubt it.
2) When exactly was zoophilia legalized in Texas?
3) What Muslims believe is what they believe. Why they believe it, I do not know.
4) For mormons, see #3
5) I am a Christian Traditionalist Conservative, and I am strictly against polygamy.
6) To be fair, incest laws usually only apply to the immedite family, making cousins excempt from this. (I don't know if this is the law everywhere; I really have no opinion on cousin marriage. Let the Supreme Court rule on that.)


1. Why do you doubt it?
2. I don't know, but I can source that it's legal.
3-6. I'm not saying all conservative Abrahamic people support polygamy or incest or anything like that, just that being homophobic doesn't necessitate opposing any other sexual behaviors viewed as taboo or vice versa.
Last edited by Meryuma on Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Avenio
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Postby Avenio » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:15 pm

Llamalandia wrote:My point is this is in fact best decided by the political processes and peoples will and not by so-called experts.


That is a truly frightening viewpoint.

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Frisivisia
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Postby Frisivisia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:21 pm

Avenio wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:My point is this is in fact best decided by the political processes and peoples will and not by so-called experts.


That is a truly frightening viewpoint.

Civil Rights should totally be decided by popular vote.
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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:48 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
Avenio wrote:
That is a truly frightening viewpoint.

Civil Rights should totally be decided by popular vote.


And people who have no qualifications in a given field should totally be making decisions that affect it.

:roll:
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Agymnum
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Postby Agymnum » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:51 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
Avenio wrote:
That is a truly frightening viewpoint.

Civil Rights should totally be decided by popular vote.


Hell yeah. Crush the blacks.

...

That's not racist. That's a color-correction term!
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Individuality-ness
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Postby Individuality-ness » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:59 pm

Grenartia wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:Civil Rights should totally be decided by popular vote.

And people who have no qualifications in a given field should totally be making decisions that affect it.

:roll:

Let's totally have prayer in schools and have our students taught creationism instead of evolution, amirite? Fuck those evolutionary biologists, fuck geologists, fuck biochemists, fuck scientists in general, those so-called know-it-all "experts". What do they know, compared to the all holy masses, amirite?
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Agymnum
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Postby Agymnum » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:00 pm

Individuality-ness wrote:
Grenartia wrote:And people who have no qualifications in a given field should totally be making decisions that affect it.

:roll:

Let's totally have prayer in schools and have our students taught creationism instead of evolution, amirite? Fuck those evolutionary biologists, fuck geologists, fuck biochemists, fuck scientists in general, those so-called know-it-all "experts". What do they know, compared to the all holy masses, amirite?


Hell, let's all eat shit. If so many flies love it, it must be delicious!
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Individuality-ness
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Postby Individuality-ness » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:02 pm

Agymnum wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Let's totally have prayer in schools and have our students taught creationism instead of evolution, amirite? Fuck those evolutionary biologists, fuck geologists, fuck biochemists, fuck scientists in general, those so-called know-it-all "experts". What do they know, compared to the all holy masses, amirite?

Hell, let's all eat shit. If so many flies love it, it must be delicious!

Let's all live in the dirt, the animals seem to love it, just look at it!
"I should have listened to her, so hard to keep control. We kept on eating but our bloated bellies still not full."
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Frisivisia
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Postby Frisivisia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:03 pm

Individuality-ness wrote:
Agymnum wrote:Hell, let's all eat shit. If so many flies love it, it must be delicious!

Let's all live in the dirt, the animals seem to love it, just look at it!

Fuck multicellularism, most living things only have one cell, majority rules, right?
Impeach The Queen, Legalize Anarchy, Stealing Things Is Not Theft. Sex Pistols 2017.
I'm the evil gubmint PC inspector, here to take your Guns, outlaw your God, and steal your freedom and give it to black people.
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Individuality-ness
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Postby Individuality-ness » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:06 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Let's all live in the dirt, the animals seem to love it, just look at it!

Fuck multicellularism, most living things only have one cell, majority rules, right?

Forget living, most species to have walked the earth are dead!
"I should have listened to her, so hard to keep control. We kept on eating but our bloated bellies still not full."
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Agymnum
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Postby Agymnum » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:07 pm

Individuality-ness wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:Fuck multicellularism, most living things only have one cell, majority rules, right?

Forget living, most species to have walked the earth are dead!


Forget being dead, most theoretical species have never even existed!

I- Yeah that joke wasn't funny at all. :(
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:07 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Let's all live in the dirt, the animals seem to love it, just look at it!

Fuck multicellularism, most living things only have one cell, majority rules, right?

Multicellularism leads to multiculturalism and we all know where that leads! SOCIALISM!
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Frisivisia
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Postby Frisivisia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:08 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:Fuck multicellularism, most living things only have one cell, majority rules, right?

Multicellularism leads to multiculturalism and we all know where that leads! SOCIALISM!

AND THEN A NWO ONE WORLD GOVERMENT AND THEN 1984 MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Impeach The Queen, Legalize Anarchy, Stealing Things Is Not Theft. Sex Pistols 2017.
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Agymnum
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Postby Agymnum » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:09 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Multicellularism leads to multiculturalism and we all know where that leads! SOCIALISM!

AND THEN A NWO ONE WORLD GOVERMENT AND THEN 1984 MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I LOVE BIG BROTHER!

I LOVE BIG BROTHER!

I LOVE BIG BROTHER!
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Anachronous Rex
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Postby Anachronous Rex » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:09 pm

Well that escalated quickly...
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Individuality-ness
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Postby Individuality-ness » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:10 pm

Agymnum wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Forget living, most species to have walked the earth are dead!

Forget being dead, most theoretical species have never even existed!

I- Yeah that joke wasn't funny at all. :(

*pats* It's okay Agy, it's okay.
"I should have listened to her, so hard to keep control. We kept on eating but our bloated bellies still not full."
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Frisivisia
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Postby Frisivisia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:10 pm

Anachronous Rex wrote:Well that escalated quickly...

The multicellular lizardmen will take your freedom away. MAN.
Impeach The Queen, Legalize Anarchy, Stealing Things Is Not Theft. Sex Pistols 2017.
I'm the evil gubmint PC inspector, here to take your Guns, outlaw your God, and steal your freedom and give it to black people.
I'm Joe Biden. So far as you know.

For: Anarchy, Punk Rock Fury
Against: Thatcher, Fascists, That Fascist Thatcher, Reagan, Nazi Punks, Everyone
"Am I buggin' ya? I don't mean to bug ya." - Bono
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:11 pm

Anachronous Rex wrote:Well that escalated quickly...

YOU HAVE 1984 POSTS!
Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Agymnum
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Postby Agymnum » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:11 pm

Anachronous Rex wrote:Well that escalated quickly...


*Sees post count*

I LOVE BIG BROTHER!

DOWN WITH EAST- I mean EURASIA!

*Whimpers quietly in the corner*

Don't hurt me. I-I didn't forget.
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Individuality-ness
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Postby Individuality-ness » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:12 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Well that escalated quickly...

YOU HAVE 1984 POSTS!

Oh crap! Abandon thread!!!
"I should have listened to her, so hard to keep control. We kept on eating but our bloated bellies still not full."
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