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A Judeo-Christian Nation?

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Xomic
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Xomic » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:13 pm

I wish I could stop misreading it as Judo-Christian nation.
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Greed and Death
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Greed and Death » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:14 pm

Xomic wrote:I wish I could stop misreading it as Judo-Christian nation.

I knew someone who practiced Jewjitsu.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
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Hydesland
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Hydesland » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:15 pm

Sarkhaan wrote:Our laws aren't from the Judeo-Christian tradition


Well, much of it is based on English common law, and many of the primary principles in that can be traced to basic Judeo-Christian ethics.

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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:22 pm

Hydesland wrote:
Sarkhaan wrote:Our laws aren't from the Judeo-Christian tradition


Well, much of it is based on English common law, and many of the primary principles in that can be traced to basic Judeo-Christian ethics.


Except for the minor detail that the second part of your sentence is completely untrue.

Other than that, bravo.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

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Hydesland
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Hydesland » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:23 pm

If anyone here is assuming that calling a nation Judeo-Christian means that everyone there is either Jewish and Christian or that the nation is intolerant of other religions, then you really aren't equipt to give any kind of credible answer to whether the US is or not.

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Greed and Death
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Greed and Death » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:26 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Hydesland wrote:
Sarkhaan wrote:Our laws aren't from the Judeo-Christian tradition


Well, much of it is based on English common law, and many of the primary principles in that can be traced to basic Judeo-Christian ethics.


Except for the minor detail that the second part of your sentence is completely untrue.

Other than that, bravo.

I wouldn't say completely courts prior to William the conquer were presided over by Bishops.

Though I read an interesting piece that points to common law in England be largely influenced by Islam.
Last edited by Greed and Death on Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:27 pm

Hydesland wrote:If anyone here is assuming that calling a nation Judeo-Christian means that everyone there is either Jewish and Christian or that the nation is intolerant of other religions, then you really aren't equipt to give any kind of credible answer to whether the US is or not.


If you want to call the U.S. "Judeo-Christian," the point has already been raised several times that you ought to tell us what the fuck you mean by that.

If you mean the government is anything but secular, you are wrong.

If you mean the nation believes the same religion, you are wrong.

Etc, etc, etc.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

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Hydesland
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Hydesland » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:31 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Hydesland wrote:
Sarkhaan wrote:Our laws aren't from the Judeo-Christian tradition


Well, much of it is based on English common law, and many of the primary principles in that can be traced to basic Judeo-Christian ethics.


Except for the minor detail that the second part of your sentence is completely untrue.

Other than that, bravo.


Are you serious? I mean, the value system and culture of Britain was massively and explicitly judeo-Christian, the Church had massive authority in the law for many years, most historians agree that the western value system of today (of which our law is based) is massively based partly on Judeo-Christian ethics and Greco-Roman ethics. I mean I can believe that it is possible someone might say it is completely untrue, but I would at least expect that some acknowledgement that their opinion is.. controversial.

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Hydesland
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Hydesland » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:32 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:If you want to call the U.S. "Judeo-Christian," the point has already been raised several times that you ought to tell us what the fuck you mean by that.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian

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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:33 pm

greed and death wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Hydesland wrote:Well, much of it is based on English common law, and many of the primary principles in that can be traced to basic Judeo-Christian ethics.


Except for the minor detail that the second part of your sentence is completely untrue.

Other than that, bravo.

I wouldn't say completely courts prior to William the conquer were presided over by Bishops.

Though I read an interesting piece that points to common law in England be largely influenced by Islam.


And you think this first tidbit proves what?
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

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Hydesland
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Hydesland » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:33 pm

greed and death wrote:Though I read an interesting piece that points to common law in England be largely influenced by Islam.


Which is quite influenced by Judeo-Christian concepts anyway.

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Osgarna
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Osgarna » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:33 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Osgarna wrote: Or did you mean say nothing about it at all? That hardly seems appropriate considering he needs to repair the damage from all of Bush's talk of "crusades" and things like that.

I meant he needs to say nothing at all...

As in, there is no religion that is the basis of this nation...Its that statement that needs to be emphasized, imo...

Sorry if I confused or offended you, like I said, it was the short answer, :p

No worries, I took no offense, though I might have if Obama had claimed that the US was a Judeo-Christian nation. Actually, more accurately, I would experience RAGE. I think what he was saying though was that the US has no religion. It's not like he said "there are no Jews or Christians in the US."

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Phenia
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Phenia » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:35 pm

Hydesland wrote:Are you serious? I mean, the value system and culture of Britain was massively and explicitly judeo-Christian, the Church had massive authority in the law for many years, most historians agree that the western value system of today (of which our law is based) is massively based partly on Judeo-Christian ethics and Greco-Roman ethics. I mean I can believe that it is possible someone might say it is completely untrue, but I would at least expect that some acknowledgement that their opinion is.. controversial.


One might as well say we are a Greco-Roman nation, then.

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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:36 pm

Hydesland wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:If you want to call the U.S. "Judeo-Christian," the point has already been raised several times that you ought to tell us what the fuck you mean by that.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian


If you want to use the definition of a highly disputed, not particularly helpful, and not very accurate Wiki page, so be it. But we aren't mind-readers.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

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Pevisopolis
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Pevisopolis » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:37 pm

There are Jews in America. There are Christians in America. That doesn't mean America is a "Judeo-Christian" Nation.
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Greed and Death
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Greed and Death » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:38 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
greed and death wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Except for the minor detail that the second part of your sentence is completely untrue.

Other than that, bravo.

I wouldn't say completely courts prior to William the conquer were presided over by Bishops.

Though I read an interesting piece that points to common law in England be largely influenced by Islam.


And you think this first tidbit proves what?


that the formation of English common law is not "totally free" of historic influence of Christianity.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

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Neo Art
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Neo Art » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:39 pm

Phenia wrote:
Hydesland wrote:Are you serious? I mean, the value system and culture of Britain was massively and explicitly judeo-Christian, the Church had massive authority in the law for many years, most historians agree that the western value system of today (of which our law is based) is massively based partly on Judeo-Christian ethics and Greco-Roman ethics. I mean I can believe that it is possible someone might say it is completely untrue, but I would at least expect that some acknowledgement that their opinion is.. controversial.


One might as well say we are a Greco-Roman nation, then.


We're.....not? Fuck all, what am I supposed to do with three dozen togas and a half built vomitorium in the back yard then?
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Ryadn
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Ryadn » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:41 pm

When he says we are not a Judeo-Christian nation, that's a fact. If there is even one citizen of the U.S. who is not a Jew or Christian, we are not a Judeo-Christian nation. If he said we are not a Muslim or Hindu nation, would that be a blanket statement, too?
"I hate you! I HATE you collectivist society. You can't tell me what to do, you're not my REAL legitimate government. As soon as my band takes off, and I invent a perpetual motion machine, I am SO out of here!" - Neo Art

"But please, explain how a condom breaking is TOTALLY different from a tire getting blown out. I mean, in one case, a piece of rubber you're relying on to remain intact so that your risk of negative consequences won't significantly increase breaks through no inherent fault of your own, and in the other case, a piece of rubber you're relying on to remain intact so that your risk of negative consequences won't significantly increase breaks through no inherent fault of your own." - The Norwegian Blue

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Hydesland
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Hydesland » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:41 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Hydesland wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:If you want to call the U.S. "Judeo-Christian," the point has already been raised several times that you ought to tell us what the fuck you mean by that.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian


If you want to use the definition of a highly disputed, not particularly helpful, and not very accurate Wiki page, so be it. But we aren't mind-readers.


Just the first few summarising sentences would be enough, reliability is an issue more when you're getting into the serious nuances of the concept. At least Wikipedia indicates what is commonly believed, and thus how the term is commonly used.

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Greed and Death
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Greed and Death » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:42 pm

Neo Art wrote:
Phenia wrote:
Hydesland wrote:Are you serious? I mean, the value system and culture of Britain was massively and explicitly judeo-Christian, the Church had massive authority in the law for many years, most historians agree that the western value system of today (of which our law is based) is massively based partly on Judeo-Christian ethics and Greco-Roman ethics. I mean I can believe that it is possible someone might say it is completely untrue, but I would at least expect that some acknowledgement that their opinion is.. controversial.


One might as well say we are a Greco-Roman nation, then.


We're.....not? Fuck all, what am I supposed to do with three dozen togas and a half built vomitorium in the back yard then?

Well me and my Frat brothers could put them to good use.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:42 pm

Hydesland wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Hydesland wrote:Well, much of it is based on English common law, and many of the primary principles in that can be traced to basic Judeo-Christian ethics.


Except for the minor detail that the second part of your sentence is completely untrue.

Other than that, bravo.


Are you serious? I mean, the value system and culture of Britain was massively and explicitly judeo-Christian, the Church had massive authority in the law for many years, most historians agree that the western value system of today (of which our law is based) is massively based partly on Judeo-Christian ethics and Greco-Roman ethics. I mean I can believe that it is possible someone might say it is completely untrue, but I would at least expect that some acknowledgement that their opinion is.. controversial.


I'm completely serious.

Your statements are inane on several grounds. There is a rather big difference between "based partly on" and "the primary principles can be traced to." You are playing a rather obvious slight-of-hand with "Judeo-Christian" and Greco-Roman, as well as with "western value system" versus "English common law." But if "most historians" agree that the U.S. is a Judeo-Christian nation, you should have an easy time demonstrating that.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

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Maurepas
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Maurepas » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:43 pm

greed and death wrote:
that the formation of English common law is not "totally free" of historic influence of Christianity.

Hmmm...I could see the argument being made, as an aside, Id heard somewhere that one of the things they used against "Executive Privilege" was the Magna Carta...

but, even so, the US doesnt recognize an official religion, and saying that we are based on one is unconstitutional...

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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:45 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Except for the minor detail that the second part of your sentence is completely untrue.

Other than that, bravo.



greed and death wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:
greed and death wrote:I wouldn't say completely courts prior to William the conquer were presided over by Bishops.

Though I read an interesting piece that points to common law in England be largely influenced by Islam.


And you think this first tidbit proves what?


that the formation of English common law is not "totally free" of historic influence of Christianity.


And when, pray tell, did I or anyone else assert the formation of English common law is "totally free" of the historical influence of Christianity?

If "influenced at somepoint by Christianity or the Christian Church" = "Judeo-Christian nation," then most nations in the world are Judeo-Christian.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

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Greed and Death
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Greed and Death » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:46 pm

Maurepas wrote:
greed and death wrote:
that the formation of English common law is not "totally free" of historic influence of Christianity.

Hmmm...I could see the argument being made, as an aside, Id heard somewhere that one of the things they used against "Executive Privilege" was the Magna Carta...

but, even so, the US doesnt recognize an official religion, and saying that we are based on one is unconstitutional...


I find the US to be secular. and any ties to religion today to be minimal to non existent.
When you say something with origins in the middle ages is totally free of religions influence in its formation your incorrect 99% of the time.
just how the times were, the church had its hands in everything.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

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Ryadn
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Re: A Judeo-Christian Nation?

Postby Ryadn » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:46 pm

Hydesland wrote:
Sarkhaan wrote:Our laws aren't from the Judeo-Christian tradition


Well, much of it is based on English common law, and many of the primary principles in that can be traced to basic Judeo-Christian ethics.


A lot of it is also based off of the Six Nations government, but most references to the Holy Trinity in the U.S. are probably not referring to beans, corn and squash.
"I hate you! I HATE you collectivist society. You can't tell me what to do, you're not my REAL legitimate government. As soon as my band takes off, and I invent a perpetual motion machine, I am SO out of here!" - Neo Art

"But please, explain how a condom breaking is TOTALLY different from a tire getting blown out. I mean, in one case, a piece of rubber you're relying on to remain intact so that your risk of negative consequences won't significantly increase breaks through no inherent fault of your own, and in the other case, a piece of rubber you're relying on to remain intact so that your risk of negative consequences won't significantly increase breaks through no inherent fault of your own." - The Norwegian Blue

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