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Recruitment TGs outside of Game-Created Regions

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.

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Unibot III
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Postby Unibot III » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:16 am

Communist Eraser wrote:
Feux wrote:
I approve of this.


Sometime else saw that. ;) If we are willing to go with this system I propose:

Newly created nations (Feeders etc) start with 'None' and slowly go to "Most". Once a nation moves to a UCR it jumps to "Most" slowly going to "None". This resets to "Most"->"None" again if a nation jumps between different UCRs. The nation of course could override and manually set their own preference at any time.

We just need want time and a chance to have try and integrate the nation first, for a while before opening it up again.


If "Most" removes 'recruitment' and only 'recruitment', then I think it should fall back to "Some", so we still have the Miscellaneous and Region filter available unless someone intentionally turns it off. But I'd like to see invites beyond regional recruitment to fit under Miscellaneous -- ultimately, in the past the Moderators have had a pretty wide definition for "Recruitment" though.
Last edited by Unibot III on Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:18 am

Most doesn't remove all recruitment. It limits how many recruitments you get in a given timespan.
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Vladisvok Destino
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Ex-Nation

Postby Vladisvok Destino » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:20 am

Individuality-ness wrote:Now tell me how many people who don't pay attention to the News posts or the forums will know that they can opt out? How many new players will know that they can opt out of recruitment spam?


How will players who don't pay attention to the news posts or the forums know that recruitment TGs outside the GCRs are illegal currently? How many new players will know that they can report recruitment spam?

If players have managed to figure out that much, it's stupid to suggest they won't figure out the new TG system.

Individuality-ness wrote:I don't think it's right. It's reasonable to expect moving from GCR > UCR means that you stop getting recruitment TGs. That's basically a nation not consenting to be spammed with recruitment TGs from one region or another.


Why is it reasonable? Because you're an older player who is familiar with the rules. How would a new player know that this is reasonable?

The Republic of Lanos wrote:Why don't we default this "Receive recruitment TGs in user-created regions" to off and/or leave it to regional administration to turn it on if they damn well please? I guarantee you there will be a lot of furious people TGing and posting about the sudden spamfest of recruiting TGs only to find out they could have turned off the spam themselves.


Personally I'd like to have this option defaulted to off for older nations, I'd rather not have to go round all my nations to switch it off. If it were decided on a regional level tbh it's obviously a poor region to begin with and that would be enough reason for me to find somewhere else.

Olthar wrote:
Sanctaria wrote:You can select not to receive any via the new TG system.

And if I had never seen this thread, I likely wouldn't have learned of that bit of information. I don't see how this is automatically no longer a problem. By the fact that this thread only has a few hundred views, I can confidently say that not everyone has seen it, and not everyone knows about this ability. Many of them also likely don't want to be bombarded by TGs and will be suddenly blindsided by them. Receiving recruitment TGs should be opt-in, not opt-out.


So again we're assuming that this thread is the only source of information people will have once this goes live and that it won't (for example) find it's way into the FAQ or the rules?
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Klaus Devestatorie
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:20 am

Given just how many recruitment telegrams I get *ALREADY* in UCRs from people ignoring the rules (after a 3 week login I generally clean up about 1 telegram per 10 puppets and only bother reporting people that should know better), I absolutely shudder to think how many recruitment telegrams I'd get on every single one of my puppets if it became legal.

Also, absolutely fucking lol at admin turning this game into pay for success if we're going to be charged money to send telegrams.
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Unibot III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:22 am

Cerian Quilor wrote:Most doesn't remove all recruitment. It limits how many recruitments you get in a given timespan.


Alright, but I think if recruitment eventually declines to "None". Miscellaneous and Region Administrative telegrams should be available unless the person specifically ops out.
Last edited by Unibot III on Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tramiar
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Ex-Nation

Postby Tramiar » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:23 am

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:Also, absolutely fucking lol at admin turning this game into pay for success if we're going to be charged money to send telegrams.

Charged for mass TG, not regular TGs.
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Gest
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Ex-Nation

Postby Gest » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:23 am

[violet] wrote:I completely agree with that philosophy, and I can promise you that if this turns out to be the case, we'll change it. The idea is absolutely not to make you need to pay for stuff to compete as a region.


Do we really need a trial balloon? When all it takes is 3 dollars to target the largest UCR, built over 10 years, I think it's obvious what the result will be.

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Cerian Quilor
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:24 am

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:Given just how many recruitment telegrams I get *ALREADY* in UCRs from people ignoring the rules (after a 3 week login I generally clean up about 1 telegram per 10 puppets and only bother reporting people that should know better), I absolutely shudder to think how many recruitment telegrams I'd get on every single one of my puppets if it became legal.

Also, absolutely fucking lol at admin turning this game into pay for success if we're going to be charged money to send telegrams.

Odd. My UCR nations have never been hit with recruit TGs.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Tredania
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Ex-Nation

Postby Tredania » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:27 am

Gest wrote:
[violet] wrote:I completely agree with that philosophy, and I can promise you that if this turns out to be the case, we'll change it. The idea is absolutely not to make you need to pay for stuff to compete as a region.


Do we really need a trial balloon? When all it takes is 3 dollars to target the largest UCR, built over 10 years, I think it's obvious what the result will be.


Indeed. For that low of a price, some of the largest UCR out there are going to be bombarded on a daily basis.

Heck, you could target a good portion of the UCR out there daily for just 10 dollars.

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95X
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Re: Recruitment TGs outside of Game-Created Regions

Postby 95X » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:30 am

I've received recruitment TGs in my various nations over the decade I've been on NS. In the brief time I was a regional delegate in possibly 2004 or so there were the even more annoying "repeal all resolutions" TGs.

It takes minimal effort to simply hit "delete" on these sorts of things (and "ignore" when necessary) and they're gone. Just like spam in my e-mail inbox.

Maybe the new system will have a link to change TG delivery settings right there on the TG page?
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Individuality-ness
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Ex-Nation

Postby Individuality-ness » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:36 am

Vladisvok Destino wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Now tell me how many people who don't pay attention to the News posts or the forums will know that they can opt out? How many new players will know that they can opt out of recruitment spam?

How will players who don't pay attention to the news posts or the forums know that recruitment TGs outside the GCRs are illegal currently? How many new players will know that they can report recruitment spam?

If players have managed to figure out that much, it's stupid to suggest they won't figure out the new TG system.

I haven't seen how it's structured, but if the controls to block recruitment TGs are hidden somewhere in a tab, it's going to be harder. Furthermore, not all new players are going to figure it out by reading the rules because many of them won't read them - hell, we still get threads at least once a month (if not once every other week) from some newbie who didn't read the FAQ or any of the stickies regarding posting images on the forums or how to use signatures or why the hell are they being told off for WA multying when they logged into their WA nation from a shared school computer or a friend's house.

Vladisvok Destino wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:I don't think it's right. It's reasonable to expect moving from GCR > UCR means that you stop getting recruitment TGs. That's basically a nation not consenting to be spammed with recruitment TGs from one region or another.

Why is it reasonable? Because you're an older player who is familiar with the rules. How would a new player know that this is reasonable?

If you're assuming that everyone is going to read the rules and whatnot, they'll find out that way and move.
If you're assuming that they won't, then under the current rules they're going to move to a new region and find that they're not being bombarded by recruitment TGs anymore. Or they'll post a question on the RMB, or on the forums asking about this, and someone will tell them to move, and they will.
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Sichuan Pepper
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sichuan Pepper » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:36 am

The current recruiting rules should stand how they are. User created regions need to remain a no recruiting zone.
I realize that enabling a legal way to recruit from UCR's is perhaps partly to relieve pressure on game mods but until there is a balanced and fair way to bring UCR's and GCR's into line you give GCR's far too much and take away what little UCR's have.
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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:38 am

Individuality-ness wrote:
Vladisvok Destino wrote:How will players who don't pay attention to the news posts or the forums know that recruitment TGs outside the GCRs are illegal currently? How many new players will know that they can report recruitment spam?

If players have managed to figure out that much, it's stupid to suggest they won't figure out the new TG system.

I haven't seen how it's structured, but if the controls to block recruitment TGs are hidden somewhere in a tab, it's going to be harder. Furthermore, not all new players are going to figure it out by reading the rules because many of them won't read them - hell, we still get threads at least once a month (if not once every other week) from some newbie who didn't read the FAQ or any of the stickies regarding posting images on the forums or how to use signatures or why the hell are they being told off for WA multying when they logged into their WA nation from a shared school computer or a friend's house.

Vladisvok Destino wrote:Why is it reasonable? Because you're an older player who is familiar with the rules. How would a new player know that this is reasonable?

If you're assuming that everyone is going to read the rules and whatnot, they'll find out that way and move.
If you're assuming that they won't, then under the current rules they're going to move to a new region and find that they're not being bombarded by recruitment TGs anymore. Or they'll post a question on the RMB, or on the forums asking about this, and someone will tell them to move, and they will.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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JURISDICTIONS
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UCR TG Recruit BAD

Postby JURISDICTIONS » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:43 am

I tell you.... THIS IS REALLY REALLY BAD.

I wouldn't mind the mechanics changes, but now we have rule changes... something to really worry about.

It is great that we have the option to block recruitment TG's... esp if we live in a GCR...

HOWEVER,

For UCRs, it is hard to build a community, building a community takes time, and if you can pay to recruit to take away those nations... then what is the point???

It is very real that UCR gameplay could die because of this rule change.

GAMEPLAY IS NOT LIMITED TO RAIDING AND DEFENDING, THERE IS A WHOLE LOT MORE TO IT THAN THAT!

I hope that Administration rethinks this change.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

------ PS Thank you for your hard work on the addition though. 2 years and it is finally here.

QUESTION: If we make it against regional law, notice via the WFE, to recruit in our region. Since we cannot ban the person, are we allowed to submit a GHR against them? If we can strike a compromise, this could be appreciated.

Maybe if a "no recrutment" tag automatically opted out all nations within the region, and those who are dissatisfied can turn it back on?
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Communist Eraser
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Ex-Nation

Postby Communist Eraser » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:49 am

Unibot III wrote:
Communist Eraser wrote:
Sometime else saw that. ;) If we are willing to go with this system I propose:

Newly created nations (Feeders etc) start with 'None' and slowly go to "Most". Once a nation moves to a UCR it jumps to "Most" slowly going to "None". This resets to "Most"->"None" again if a nation jumps between different UCRs. The nation of course could override and manually set their own preference at any time.

We just need want time and a chance to have try and integrate the nation first, for a while before opening it up again.


If "Most" removes 'recruitment' and only 'recruitment', then I think it should fall back to "Some", so we still have the Miscellaneous and Region filter available unless someone intentionally turns it off. But I'd like to see invites beyond regional recruitment to fit under Miscellaneous -- ultimately, in the past the Moderators have had a pretty wide definition for "Recruitment" though.


Cerian is correct I think, "Most" still allows some recruitment TGs, but I would live with that if I must. As for the rest of your Uni, I don't mind really, I know you like to send all sort of random TGs for other stuff. ;)

Some might accuse me of compromising too quickly (I rather have no recruitments in UCRs) but if admin is set on it, this is the best way to go. I hope it doesn't get lost underneath the shouting.
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:58 am

Individuality-ness wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:You'll be able to opt out. :)

Now tell me how many people who don't pay attention to the News posts or the forums will know that they can opt out? How many new players will know that they can opt out of recruitment spam?

This is a question about the interface. I think it's reasonably easy for people to see they can block recruitment TGs. We want nations to know they have this power. But you can judge for yourself when it goes live.

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The Republic of Lanos
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Republic of Lanos » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:58 am

[violet] wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Now tell me how many people who don't pay attention to the News posts or the forums will know that they can opt out? How many new players will know that they can opt out of recruitment spam?

This is a question about the interface. I think it's reasonably easy for people to see they can block recruitment TGs. We want nations to know they have this power. But you can judge for yourself when it goes live.

Why not a game-issued TG be the first to greet players about the new TG system?

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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:00 am

[violet] wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Now tell me how many people who don't pay attention to the News posts or the forums will know that they can opt out? How many new players will know that they can opt out of recruitment spam?

This is a question about the interface. I think it's reasonably easy for people to see they can block recruitment TGs. We want nations to know they have this power. But you can judge for yourself when it goes live.

I think you're over-estimating the savvy of new players in their early days. Even the giants of today were bumbling newbies who didn't know how to move to another region, once.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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[violet]
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Founded: Antiquity

Postby [violet] » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:05 am

Gest wrote:
[violet] wrote:I completely agree with that philosophy, and I can promise you that if this turns out to be the case, we'll change it. The idea is absolutely not to make you need to pay for stuff to compete as a region.

Do we really need a trial balloon? When all it takes is 3 dollars to target the largest UCR, built over 10 years, I think it's obvious what the result will be.

I don't doubt that nations in Player-Created Regions who haven't had any recruitment TGs for a long time will start getting a number of them--in some regions, maybe a lot. But I don't think that means good regions will be "gutted," like some people here are saying. That implies either that the residents are idiots, swayed by whichever TG they last read, or that they're unhappy in their region and only staying because they don't know about a better one. I don't believe the former and I don't think the latter deserves protection, because those nations aren't staying in NS anyway.

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Individuality-ness
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Ex-Nation

Postby Individuality-ness » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:06 am

[violet] wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Now tell me how many people who don't pay attention to the News posts or the forums will know that they can opt out? How many new players will know that they can opt out of recruitment spam?

This is a question about the interface. I think it's reasonably easy for people to see they can block recruitment TGs. We want nations to know they have this power. But you can judge for yourself when it goes live.

I hope so, but granted, many newbies don't actually know the rules and don't read the stickies. If they did, we wouldn't have basic questions like "how do I find a region", "why am I getting a WA warning", "how to post images", and the like being asked on the forum at least once a month, if not every other week. This is not to mention newbies asking questions on our RMBs because they didn't bother reading the FAQ gameside.
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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:07 am

What I'm worried about is the people who are brand new to a region getting pasted with TGs. Before they've had a chance to be welcomed and integrated.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Sichuan Pepper
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sichuan Pepper » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:07 am

Still not addressing the huge issue of spawning pools and recruitment pools. This needs to be addressed before you go live. It is extremely difficult to get things changed once you have implemented a new feature.
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:09 am

Individuality-ness wrote:
[violet] wrote:This is a question about the interface. I think it's reasonably easy for people to see they can block recruitment TGs. We want nations to know they have this power. But you can judge for yourself when it goes live.

I hope so, but granted, many newbies don't actually know the rules and don't read the stickies.

I totally agree. I certainly don't expect people to discover this option by reading FAQs. Again, I'd just say to wait and take a look for yourself at how obvious it is.

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Cromarty
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cromarty » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:13 am

This will be great. Suddenly a way to hit back against UCR's poaching our nations.

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Individuality-ness
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Founded: Mar 02, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Individuality-ness » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:16 am

[violet] wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:I hope so, but granted, many newbies don't actually know the rules and don't read the stickies.

I totally agree. I certainly don't expect people to discover this option by reading FAQs. Again, I'd just say to wait and take a look for yourself at how obvious it is.

I can wait and take a look at the interface, but then again I know what I'm doing having been here a while. The current interface isn't great, and I remember people asking questions on how to block senders or send TGs with our current system.

I still don't think that lifting the no-recruiting-TGs-outside-UCRs rule is a good idea, but I'll like to see what the new interface looks like.
Last edited by Individuality-ness on Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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