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Boots on the ground. On Mars.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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AiliailiA
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Founded: Jul 20, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby AiliailiA » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:43 am

Hatsunia wrote:
Ailiailia wrote:
From that masterpiece of comedy, you picked that to spin your own joke off?

Sorry, my joke detector doesn't always work.
Ailiailia wrote:... wait ... you weren't joking? You're arguing with me?

Well OK. Tell me what the ratio of rocket mass to payload is, to get payload from GTO to earth escape. Or get the fuck out of my business plan >:(

From here, the delta-v for GTO to Earth escape (C3=0) is 0.7 km/s (700 m/s). Although solid-fueled stages aren't as efficient as Lox/RP-1 and Lox/LH2, they are cheaper and good for small payloads such as a 70-kilogram corpse, while the more expensive but more efficient fuels are for payloads that weigh from several hundred kilograms to several metric tons. Every stage, by itself, has different ratios between the gross mass and the empty mass, but they may vary from stage to stage. One of these stages is the Payload Assist Module - D, an upper stage with a gross:empty mass ratio of about 9.2 and a specific impulse of 292 seconds. We will be basing our hypothetical upper stage on this. According to this delta-v calculator, you only need a stage that has a loaded mass of 22.54 kg and an empty mass of 2.45 kg for GTO to Earth escape.

Full mass: 70 + 22.54 = 92.54 kg
Dry mass: 70 + 2.45 = 72.45 kg
Isp: 292 s

delta-v = 700.84 m/s

ratio between stage mass and payload: about 0.3 (22.54/70)
ratio between (stage + payload) mass and payload: about 1.3 (92.54/70)

But for a LEO to Earth escape trajectory, a delta-v of 3200 m/s, you need a stage that has a loaded mass of 215.74 kg and an empty mass of 23.45 kg for LEO to Earth escape.

Full mass: 70 + 215.74 = 285.74 kg
Dry mass: 70 + 23.45 = 93.45 kg
Isp: 292 s

delta-v = 3200.45 m/s

ratio between stage mass and payload: about 3.1 (215.74/70)
ratio between (stage + payload) mass and payload: about 4.1 (285.74/70)

(used to be Star-48, but then I realized that that was an engine, not a stage)


Hey, sorry. It must have looked pretty rude of me to reply later to the thread without acknowledging the above. I just missed it somehow.

I was thinking to send the 'payload' with other cargo on an elliptical GTO launch, because I assumed that would be cheapest ... but I see it's probably not. The GTO launch with the tiny final stage and the LEO launch with the Pam-D probably work out similar.

I think I prefer the smaller booster to LEO then bigger final-stage plan you suggest, because it would be a more salable service. The funeral party could watch a rocket launched only for the purpose of space burial. It has more ... dignity I suppose. Sending the corpse (and its final stage) along with other cargo is like a huge shiny hearse taking the dear departed in their coffin off to the cemetery. But stopping along the way to deliver something more valuable, because it also doubles as a delivery van.

(Of course, the whole idea is rather sick. In real life I'm a bit offended by Space Tourism: the carbon emissions and upper atmosphere damage seem like conspicuous consumption and probably more about boasting rights than the fun of being in zero gravity for a while. Like those dickheads who go to climb Everest because they're fit enough and can afford it, but then leave piles of garbage at the camps. Space burial is worse, because the corpse doesn't even get happy memories from it. Or boasting rights really, but Last Will is a fairly bizarre idea in its own right.)

Going with the crazy idea though, a high altitude launch would be a hell of a send off. A small party of mourners could ride along in the launch platform (plane) and after their dear departed departs the plane could go into a zero-g dive for a while. A little taste of what awaits the corpse forever. If that doesn't get 'em crying nothing will.

A smaller solid-fuel booster is good too, because we could promise to launch within a week or so of the person's death. Getting on a bigger booster along with other cargo can't be scheduled on such short notice, and again is kind of undignified. Like flying "standby" instead of a charter flight. I'm thinking the narcissistic old rich person who knows they're going to die soon pays in advance, we buy the rocketry (and they can come inspect it if they want to be sure it exists) then they'd pay by the week or by the month to store it near the launch site (we don't want young folks signing up then living another fifty years while we pay storage costs and eventually have to replace the booster).

It's a bit more expensive than my first estimate. $5 - $10 million costs, double that to allow for our profit and risk (if the launch fails I think we'd refund the money to their estate) and maybe a bit more if they want carbon offsets or a donation to protecting the ozone layer.

I'm not sure how realistic it is to schedule a launch in just one week when we've already got the thing ready? Regular funeral services are sometimes delayed longer than a week after death, but that's what to aim for I think.
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Hatsunia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hatsunia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:37 am

Ailiailia wrote:(Of course, the whole idea is rather sick. In real life I'm a bit offended by Space Tourism: the carbon emissions and upper atmosphere damage seem like conspicuous consumption and probably more about boasting rights than the fun of being in zero gravity for a while. Like those dickheads who go to climb Everest because they're fit enough and can afford it, but then leave piles of garbage at the camps. Space burial is worse, because the corpse doesn't even get happy memories from it. Or boasting rights really, but Last Will is a fairly bizarre idea in its own right.)

Dang it, environmentalism...

(I'm actually okay with protecting the environment, but I love spaceflight and the idea of space tourism a lot. I don't think a few rocket launches will affect the atmosphere too much. Actually, look here.)
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Zonolia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Zonolia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:20 pm

If they ever do create a colony on Mars, I really hope miners find ancient alien ruins on the south end of the planet which will jump our technology forward 200 years...
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Vareiln
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Ex-Nation

Postby Vareiln » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:22 pm

Call to power wrote:What is it with people using that Soviet flag and being completely mental for Mars. Is it just one incredibly...focused person incessantly posting the same thing?

Anyway, as per the thread a few months ago: funding this through a big brother program will only lead to the need for our colonists to do increasingly crazy stuff to maintain the viewers and thus stay alive. It is terrifyingly dystopian and a great sci-fi plot if only people weren't taking it seriously.

My god, CtP is right...
Not that you haven't been right before, but... Aw, hell, you get what I meant.
Last edited by Vareiln on Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Divair
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Ex-Nation

Postby Divair » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:22 pm

Zonolia wrote:If they ever do create a colony on Mars, I really hope miners find ancient alien ruins on the south end of the planet which will jump our technology forward 200 years...

I wish.

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The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:34 pm

Divair wrote:
Zonolia wrote:If they ever do create a colony on Mars, I really hope miners find ancient alien ruins on the south end of the planet which will jump our technology forward 200 years...

I wish.

Please, your technology may have evolved a million times over, but everybody will at some level still act like the same psychotic apes as we always have.

That said, we need to hurry up and find those Prothean archives. I want telekinesis.
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The Corparation
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Corporate Police State

Postby The Corparation » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:44 pm

The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:
Divair wrote:I wish.

Please, your technology may have evolved a million times over, but everybody will at some level still act like the same psychotic apes as we always have.

That said, we need to hurry up and find those Prothean archives. I want telekinesis.

Screw Telekinesis I want hot alien babes.

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Orenica
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Ex-Nation

Postby Orenica » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:48 pm

Phocidaea wrote:Also, 2023 is more than 110 years after the discovery of airplane flight, and even further past the discovery of flight in general (balloons, gliders, etc.)


Emphasis mine.
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Farnhamia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:49 pm

Orenica wrote:
Phocidaea wrote:Also, 2023 is more than 110 years after the discovery of airplane flight, and even further past the discovery of flight in general (balloons, gliders, etc.)


Emphasis mine.
I didn't know that flight had always existed, just waiting to be discovered in a far off jungle or arid desert...

Or a beach in North Carolina.
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The Corparation
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Corporate Police State

Postby The Corparation » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:53 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Orenica wrote:
Emphasis mine.
I didn't know that flight had always existed, just waiting to be discovered in a far off jungle or arid desert...

Or a beach in North Carolina.

It's a little known fact but prior to 1903 no bird had ever been observed flying through the air under its own power. Only after man invented the plane was he able to catch the act of birds flying.

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Unidox
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Unidox » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:12 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:OMG, I can go to Mars myself! But only if I make ninety-nine easy payments of $99.99, and sign up 70 friends to do the same, and if I win the lottery and assuming the guy doesn't just take my cash and my friends cash and go to Hong Kong or New Zealand where he will blend in, just disappear. And, leave for Mars. Then suddenly, that abortion for my GF I was going to pay for, it's not going to happen. I'm not going to be stuck in a loveless relationship with a woman I loathe and a child I hate. He'll notice the distance as he grows older, turn to drugs and join a gang. He'll end up dead in a drive by shooting and no parent should have to bury their children even if it was an unintended mistake. Or at some god forsaken lab at the bottom of the sea, but whatever.

Damn Thank you, Mars colony. Damn Thank you to hell!

Made 10% better.
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Farnhamia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:15 pm

The Corparation wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Or a beach in North Carolina.

It's a little known fact but prior to 1903 no bird had ever been observed flying through the air under its own power. Only after man invented the plane was he able to catch the act of birds flying.

True. Human eyes had to become accustomed to seeing flying things.
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Unidox
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Unidox » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:17 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:
Call to power wrote:What is it with people using that Soviet flag and being completely mental for Mars. Is it just one incredibly...focused person incessantly posting the same thing?



Ok, so I'm not the only one who noticed that. Didn't some person with Lenin on his flag make several threads about it?

Communist are from Mars, duh, Red Planet, Red Menace. Come on, man, you know this!
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Buffett and Colbert wrote:Always here to ruin the day. 8)

Living Freedom Land wrote:Oh, so now you want gay people to take part in the sacred institution of tax rebates too? You liberals sicken me.

Lacadaemon wrote:I mean, hell, in a properly regulated market, pension stripping schemes like Zynga wouldn't ever have a sniff of an IPO (see Groupon). But it's all wild westy now. Lie down with dogs and so forth.

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Mike the Progressive
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Mike the Progressive » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:44 pm

Unidox wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:OMG, I can go to Mars myself! But only if I make ninety-nine easy payments of $99.99, and sign up 70 friends to do the same, and if I win the lottery and assuming the guy doesn't just take my cash and my friends cash and go to Hong Kong or New Zealand where he will blend in, just disappear. And, leave for Mars. Then suddenly, that abortion for my GF I was going to pay for, it's not going to happen. I'm not going to be stuck in a loveless relationship with a woman I loathe and a child I hate. He'll notice the distance as he grows older, turn to drugs and join a gang. He'll end up dead in a drive by shooting and no parent should have to bury their children even if it was an unintended mistake. Or at some god forsaken lab at the bottom of the sea, but whatever.

Damn Thank you, Mars colony. Damn Thank you to hell!

Made 10% better.


It was made 10% something. Not sure "better" is it :P

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Zonolia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Zonolia » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:45 pm

The Corparation wrote:
The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:Please, your technology may have evolved a million times over, but everybody will at some level still act like the same psychotic apes as we always have.

That said, we need to hurry up and find those Prothean archives. I want telekinesis.

Screw Telekinesis I want hot alien babes.

Screw Asari, I want Blasto.
Hell hath no fury like a mod scorned.
Kim Berloni-
President of Zonolia.
Population (Homeland+Colonies-As of 03/14/2014): 19,874,000,000
Current Year: 2014
Territories:
(Jikilo Brothers Incorporated)
S Islands Archipelago
Commonwealths:
Cubanonoa
The Island of Gu
Proud Progressive!
Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -5.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.49

All Hail Emperor Palpatine, Savior of the Republic and Valiant Destroyer of the Anti-Establishment Jedi Order!

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