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Add a "Standard of Living" Trendline

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Beepers
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Postby Beepers » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:45 pm

Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:I'd consider this too subjective but then again the actual UN has a human development index so this really could make sense.


Aye, that's where I drew inspiration.

Now, I'm not familiar with the precise methodology of how Economic/Political Freedom and Civil Rights are calculated. For example, I know there's a dwindling Return on Investment when you reach the upper-limits of each (90+), but I don't know to what scale. Is this information public? I'd need it to proceed.

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Postby Luna Amore » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:54 pm

Beepers wrote:
Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:I'd consider this too subjective but then again the actual UN has a human development index so this really could make sense.


Aye, that's where I drew inspiration.

Now, I'm not familiar with the precise methodology of how Economic/Political Freedom and Civil Rights are calculated. For example, I know there's a dwindling Return on Investment when you reach the upper-limits of each (90+), but I don't know to what scale. Is this information public? I'd need it to proceed.

No, it isn't public.
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Panageadom
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Postby Panageadom » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:52 am

Beepers wrote:"Standard of Living", a new trendline to be added to the Current Three ("Civil Rights", "Economy", "Political Freedoms"), would combine and quantify environmental, health and educational policy, that of which promote a happy, employed, literate and long living populace, into a value/100. As the system stands today, too much positive reinforcement is given to Nation's on the Right side of the political spectrum. Nations that have a suffering populace and a complete lack of social policies can have across-the-board high values in the Current Three. Unbeknownst to themselves, Nations exploit their people and reduce their quality of life and wonder later why their toxicity is sky-high, or why their obesity numbers are bloated. We need this trendline so Nations may better analyze the consequences of positions as they're taken over time. Let's turn the Current Three into the Future Four.

Humbly,
Our Beloved Blessed Beautiful Dear Leader Beepers


Oh, my god, this would be the most politicised thing to exist in NS. Have you any idea how many people whinge about the current data? This is basically like giving them a "your country is better" ranking!
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Christian Democrats
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Postby Christian Democrats » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:23 pm

This sounds like a decent idea.

I would just be happy with an average trendline on the graph.

(Civil Rights + Economy + Political Freedoms) ÷ 3 = Average

Purple would be a good color for a new line, standard of living or average, if one is added.
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Beepers
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Postby Beepers » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:06 pm

Luna Amore wrote:No, it isn't public.


Oh, well I'll draft a formula with some things assumed, then.

Panageadom wrote:Oh, my god, this would be the most politicised thing to exist in NS. Have you any idea how many people whinge about the current data? This is basically like giving them a "your country is better" ranking!


"Standard of Living" is certainly not an overall National ranking system. Some people might take pride in their "Standard of Living" rating. Others might take pride in having a robust economy, or in their sprawling political and civil freedoms. There's no overlap between "Standard of Living" and the other three trendlines. It stands alone, and as an equal. Having high ratings in SoL would be just as important (or more important) to some Nations as having high ratings in any of the other 3, which is exactly why I proposed the change.

This wouldn't change or add any new variables, leaving an individual's playing experience unchanged, if they choose to ignore SoL, so I don't see this becoming a political issue. Whether or not it's worth implementing, that's up for debate now.

Christian Democrats wrote:This sounds like a decent idea.

I would just be happy with an average trendline on the graph.

(Civil Rights + Economy + Political Freedoms) ÷ 3 = Average

Purple would be a good color for a new line, standard of living or average, if one is added.


Off Topic: An average of all three lines would provide a measure of how Authoritarian/Libertarian a country is overall. But with only 3 lines, this value can easily be predicted as the system stands now. For example, I know by looking at my three trendlines that they'd roughly average out to Authoritarian-leaning.
Last edited by Beepers on Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby San Leggera » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:59 am

Beepers wrote:An average of all three lines would provide a measure of how Authoritarian/Libertarian a country is overall. But with only 3 lines, this value can easily be predicted as the system stands now. For example, I know by looking at my three trendlines that they'd roughly average out to Authoritarian-leaning.

That would be the case if the economy trendline was economic freedom rather than economic strength.
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Valisa
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Postby Valisa » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:00 am

it is depend on human that how they adjust .

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Postby Andacantra » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:43 am

A trendline is excessive, but I wonder if there are the base stats for a WA census, as that would be quite good.
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:23 am

Beepers wrote:There's no overlap between "Standard of Living" and the other three trendlines.

Hrreally? And so just how could people in a nation whose government has run its nation's economy into the ground, whatever that government's intentions might be, actually afford a decent 'standard of living'? After all, for example, a basket-case or imploded economy means pretty well no wealth available for the government to tax which basically means no money available for for running state-funded schools or hospitals... and, also, quite possibly a pretty high chance of famines...
Last edited by Bears Armed on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Torisakia
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Postby Torisakia » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:15 am

Worst idea ever. Sorry. *shrugs*
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Panageadom
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Postby Panageadom » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:06 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Beepers wrote:There's no overlap between "Standard of Living" and the other three trendlines.

Hrreally? And so just how could people in a nation whose government has run its nation's economy into the ground, whatever that government's intentions might be, actually afford a decent 'standard of living'? After all, for example, a basket-case or imploded economy means pretty well no wealth available for the government to tax which basically means no money available for for running state-funded schools or hospitals... and, also, quite possibly a pretty high chance of famines...


Pah, NS has never realised this element of basic logic - why start now?
Author of Issues:
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#315: Creative Flowers Withering Under Legislation
#324 "Tourism Tanking" Tells Tabloids
#334: Blot Out Bauhaus
#340: Defending Patent Pending
#365: A Busload of Worry

None at present

If I offer criticism on your proposed issue, I will often write in red: don't think I'm being aggressive, it's just a convention I use!
If I ask a question on a proposed issue thread, then it's because I feel it's one you need to ask of your issue: I'm being Socratic and/or lazy.


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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:27 am

Panageadom wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:Hrreally? And so just how could people in a nation whose government has run its nation's economy into the ground, whatever that government's intentions might be, actually afford a decent 'standard of living'? After all, for example, a basket-case or imploded economy means pretty well no wealth available for the government to tax which basically means no money available for for running state-funded schools or hospitals... and, also, quite possibly a pretty high chance of famines...


Pah, NS has never realised this element of basic logic - why start now?

Better late than never?
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Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
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Madistania
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Postby Madistania » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:06 am

The idea of a standard of living trendline would be interesting but very hard to impliment as standard of living is at least partially subjective. Also what about highly segregated states where lets say 90% of the population have very high living standards and the other 10% live like serfs. Since NationStates only calculates the averages such a state would look like it has a high living standard.

What I would like is for trendline to be kept of all the analysis variables which could then be displayed in a graph. Of course one difficulty would be that many things have no limit to their size.

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Beepers
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Postby Beepers » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:19 am

Madistania wrote:Also what about highly segregated states where lets say 90% of the population have very high living standards and the other 10% live like serfs. Since NationStates only calculates the averages such a state would look like it has a high living standard.


Averages never claim to represent upper and lower limits. Just as a nation can have a bustling Economy with huge numbers of impoverished people, a nation can have the scenario you outlined above.

It appears Human Development Index has been added under "Analysis", so my idea is no longer required. It's nice to see everything put into one comprehensive value.

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Postby [violet] » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:41 pm

Beepers wrote:It appears Human Development Index has been added under "Analysis", so my idea is no longer required. It's nice to see everything put into one comprehensive value.

I kept meaning to ask Kindly Professor Hell to post in this thread. KPH used this thread as inspiration for the Human Development Index, which is a new metric we're introducing gradually, and may wind up on the Trend line.

I didn't want to announce something that I didn't create... maybe KPH can expand further.

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The Galactic Commonwealth
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Postby The Galactic Commonwealth » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:20 pm

I like this idea.

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Kindly Professor Hell
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Postby Kindly Professor Hell » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:33 pm

I'd be delighted to say a few words about the Human Development Index that Lady [violet] has implemented. (I worked out the formulas, but [violet] deserves all the credit for the actual code. And, of course, Beepers deserves the credit for coming up with the idea in the first place.)

Warning: I tend to write at length, so this will be many words rather than a few. Some people think my verbosity is a flaw. So I will try to start off with the most relevant and interesting information before I descend into random ramblings. If you get bored or tired, feel free to stop reading at any time.

The Human Development Index is a metric designed by the UN to provide a more useful measure of human well-being than a simple economic statistic. As described in the Wikipedia link, the method of computation was changed in 2011 - but the NationStates implementation follows the earlier computation, because NationStates is a game, and I thought doing it the old way made it more fun.

The real HDI runs from zero (least possible development) to one (highest possible development). My formulas produce a value from 0 to 100 instead to make it have the same scale as the freedom and economic statistics displayed in the Trend tab of the nation page. The real (pre-2011) HDI is the average of three values, representing economic well-being, lifespan, and literacy/education level, each of which can range between 0 and 1. Something resembling each of these values can be computed from information that NationStates is already keeping for each nation.

Without giving too much away, I can say that the economic component of the NationStates HDI is derived from some of the internal information about a nation's economic health, the lifespan component is the NationStates lifespan statistic, normalized to fall between 15 and 100 years, and the education component is derived from the same information that goes into the Smartest Citizens ranking. Because the lifespan component starts at 15 rather than zero, the actual range of the NationStates HDI is actually 5-100 rather than 0-100.

In 2010, the nation with the highest HDI in the world was Norway, with an HDI of 0.938, and the lowest was Zimbabwe, with an HDI of 0.140. I don't have the names of the corresponding NationStates nations (that will have to wait for the "Most Developed" ranking to be actually chosen), but I can offer as examples of the extremes Free Socialism, with a NationStates HDI of 98 and Bast with an HDI of 16. Because of the fact that the HDI is a composite of several stats which are not closely related, one often sees fairly ordinary HDI rankings for those nations which seem to frequently show up at one end of the other of multiple rankings, especially the economic ones. For instance, Neo-Industria has an HDI of 47, and Kindjal one of 67.

The UN divides the spectrum of HDI values into 4 quartiles: Low, Medium, High and Very High. Due to NationStates' tripartite division of its freedom stats, I prefer a three-part division of the HDI as well, distinguishing Underdeveloped (5-39), Developing (40-74) and Highly Developed(75-99).

[violet] notes that the HDI might end up on the Trend tab, as Beepers suggested. I hope it does for a couple of reasons. One is to provide a highly visible and interestingly different goal for nations to aspire to. The techniques one uses to max out (or zero out) one's freedoms will tend to produce mediocre HDI scores. For instance, to achieve a long lifespan, coercive policies like banning smoking, and (in the economic sphere) environmental regulations can make a big difference. If you want a real challenge, I suggest trying to achieve Very High Development simultaneously with a government type of Anarchy or a tax rate of 0. I am aware of a nation with an HDI of 98 and no taxes, so I know the latter, at least, is not impossible.

The other reason I like the idea of having the HDI on the Trend graphs is what it tells the observer about the quality of life in a nation. Those of you who've followed the blogging of my alter ego New South Hell know that one of my motivations has been trying to find a way to answer the question "what would it be like to live in nation X?". Government type doesn't tell you that - my nation Unfocused Extremism is an Inoffensive Centrist Democracy which also happens to be a hellhole. (Technically, today it is a Capitalist Paradise, but I will soon pull its economic freedom back down into Inoffensive territory.) Of course, a high HDI is no guarantee of livability, but Unfocused Extremism's HDI of 31 is a red flag that perhaps all is not as well there as it seems at first.

Anyway, that's pretty much the story of the HDI, and I hope that the issues'n'stats players out there will find it interesting, challenging
and/or fun. Thanks again to Beepers for the idea.
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The Galactic Commonwealth
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Postby The Galactic Commonwealth » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:35 pm

I would be happy to see this as a trend, and I hope it is implemented soon.

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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:26 am

Violet, if an HDI trendline were to be implemented, would the data start on the date the nation was created, on the date the HDI statistic was implemented, or on the date the trendline was added to the graph?
Last edited by Auralia on Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Panageadom
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Postby Panageadom » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:46 am

Alright, I'm more or less won over...cool idea. (Even if I notice Prof. Hell himself has a score of 93...)
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Fit battion
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Postby Fit battion » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:38 am

I think it's a genuinely good idea, real life countries are rated on factors such as these all the time and you can't watch the news without being told that you're living a much worse life than you were yesterday.
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Postby Ballotonia » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:37 am

Auralia wrote:Violet, if an HDI trendline were to be implemented, would the data start on the date the nation was created, on the date the HDI statistic was implemented, or on the date the trendline was added to the graph?


For existing nations the start moment would be when the trendline data storage was activated, which is a requirement for (and part of) implementing a trendline. For newer nations it would be the day of creation.

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Beepers
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Postby Beepers » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:15 pm

Very good work [violet] and KPH, this is quite like I imagined it. But, though I do prefer the name "Human Development Index", will it provoke another copyright battle with the UN?

Ballotonia wrote:
Auralia wrote:Violet, if an HDI trendline were to be implemented, would the data start on the date the nation was created, on the date the HDI statistic was implemented, or on the date the trendline was added to the graph?


For existing nations the start moment would be when the trendline data storage was activated, which is a requirement for (and part of) implementing a trendline. For newer nations it would be the day of creation.

Ballotonia


A crude trendline could be constructed using past Census information of the formula's dictating variables. It'd be a real eyesore, though; angular, and never more than one-third accurate.

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Postby Frisbeeteria » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:20 pm

Beepers wrote:will it provoke another copyright battle with the UN?

Highly unlikely.

Beepers wrote:A crude trendline could be constructed using past Census information of the formula's dictating variables.

Assuming we kept such records ... which we don't.

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Equestrian States
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Postby Equestrian States » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:51 pm

I actually like this little census quite a bit. While there will probably be some jokes/points/complaints about or from players like myself that RP with non-human populations, it isn't really anything to be concerned with, since most people just play the game.

What I'd like to know is this: what is the possibility of us getting an census that is the opposite of this? (like with the taxation/freedom from taxation ones) If the final destination of the census is the with the trendlines, I would say that a negative version of the census (maybe "Least Developed") should be added.
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