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Cosmopolitans Are Regionwhores - An "Essay" Not By The Bot

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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AS22
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 188
Founded: Oct 14, 2012
Ex-Nation

Cosmopolitans Are Regionwhores - An "Essay" Not By The Bot

Postby AS22 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:05 pm

In Rebuttal To Unibot – The Preeminent Userite of Our Time

Gripping with tangled vines
Sprouting forth like great hands
Through the dead and cracked floors

Possessing not the honesty of youth
But animated by old hands
In suffocation of the Bot

Murmuring with treachery
In concert with our oldest enemies
Cloaked in the conspiracy of closed rooms

The house of the Bot was now his prison
Shackled by an institution subverted
Anchored to misery and subjugation

And when freed by a fallen Angel
The fate of miscalculation
The Bot burst forth with a vengeance

Never to be tied down again
A tower of new paradigm
Levitates above all through sheer force of his will

Beaming hot light across our world
In the hungry pursuit of his enemies
As satellite towers established
In my realm, aplenty
-A Userite Irony



Image

The UDL HQ, topped by Eluvatar's Ray of Justice. I would know, I was there

I. Political Decay and the folly of Influence.

II. The United Defenders League – The Crime of Supra-regionalism

III. The Enemy Incarnate – The Sinner Krulltopia and Francoist Corruption

IV. Moving Forward

I

“…any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now, and we will never be here again.”


Nothing lasts forever. This truth is manifest in nature, in the mortality of our planet and star, and in our very selves. Political institutions and regimes are similarly doomed. Political Decay refers to this particular form of mortality, as political systems hostage to aging influences lose power or relevance in the face of new realities.

Political Decay is often recognized in NationStates when looking at the feeders. The Pacific, once home to legends, is now but a shell of its former self. It is devoid of purpose, relevance, and has lost the ability to project power beyond its borders.

And yet, the construct of Influence has made Krulltopia stronger as the Pacific has gotten weaker. This is an unnatural aberration, flying in the face of the universal truism of mortality. Influence is self-reinforcing. Krulltopia’s high amount allows him to enforce a stringent endorsement cap, thereby furthering his attainment of influence vis-à-vis potential competitors. This influence gain reflects neither effort on his part nor the support of his residents, who are prisoners in political darkness.

In keeping the gates shut, logging in, and running an endorsement scanner…Krulltopia grants himself immortality. This is the folly of Influence. It reflects neither natural nor political reality, in a world supposedly created to simulate the world of nation states.

Influence has allowed the East Pacific to exist with minimal activity, under the control of the same individuals that existed when I first entered GCR politics.

Similarly, Influence has contributed to the de-politicization of the GCRs. Security is not handled by young, political adherents but by apolitical, longstanding members whose function is to simply horde influence as a check against any and all new realities. This system discourages rather than encourages outreach.

What a Francoist shares with his doctrinal Raider cousins is an understanding of the Virtue of Destruction. The old must move on, be they feeder lords or regions with their founders extinguished. At the very least, the game should not empower the old simply because they are not young. Such a thing has no basis in reality, and is folly.

II

“The two classes recognised by Francoist Thought are the Feederites, who are the nations of their respective Pacific and seek to harness and work with the means of production (namely the Pacific region itself), and the Userites, who seek to exploit its fruits; by exploiting both the nations of the Pacific and the political structure set up within it to further their own political, military and social power.”


The United Defenders League is a supra-regional organization. It represents not a region but a coalition of players from across the world’s many regions, united in their common creed. This “supra-regional” character is nothing more than an ultimate Userite vehicle. The lack of a formal region coupled with its military nature makes it a force accountable only to itself. This construct further allows members to claim un-infringed loyalty to their home regions, as the UDL is - to them - not a comparable entity.

In the Feeders, the UDL is manifest as a political interest group. The military network is injected into liberal feeder democracies, whose citizenship requirements are loose. UDL members can then vote each other into political power, in a practice known as regionwhoring. The majority of regionwhores are completely ignorant as to the condition of the region they are regionwhoring or the motives of the one they are electing. Most of them are not doctrinal or political in the extent of their superiors but mainly see themselves as helping out a fellow UDLer. Votes are easily solicited among the UDL on IRC, were regionwhores can be recruited to vote in elections they hardly knew were occurring in the first place.

This practice is furthered by the culture of victimization prevalent in defenderism at large, which does not recognize the Virtue of Destruction. A Userite hardly considers himself debated, he considers himself rightly accepted or wrongly victimized. In the North Pacific and the South Pacific, this is the prevalent condition of UDL candidates, and has resulted in more than one mental breakdown and raucous exit. The “us against them” attitude is easily taken from the battlefield to the political debates of GCRs, where UDLers will self-identify with a fellow UDLer being “victimized” in a debate, while remaining mute to the conditions of said debate in the first place.

Through regionwhoring, the UDL enacts defenderism on GCRs. GCR armies are not to be invader aligned, but will be neutral or defender leaning. Citizenship restrictions to combat regionwhoring must be resisted. Entry into or alliance with defender organizations must be pursued. In the South Pacific, Belschaft pursued entry into the FRA and largely ceased to be delegate following this failure. The UDL’s office of Feeder Affairs contemplated UDL advertising and recruitment on the WFEs of GCRs.

In the South Pacific, the UDL’s regionwhoring has granted us the elections of Topid, Belschaft, Unibot, and Milograd – all four in possession of failed records. The first constructed laws to facilitate his return to defending. The second was an absent delegate when not pushing the region towards defenderism and a weakening of the army. The third convinced the older (and influential) residents that young regionalist reformers – Hileville, Antariel, and Haxstree – were a menace and colored debate with his signature brand of self righteousness. The fourth has been a constant contender for the office of delegate, despite having an empty resume in government and showing no care when fellow Userites ignore the laws of the region.

In sum, these supra-regionals are not “cosmopolitans” as Unibot would have them rebranded. They practice nothing more than forum capture. Like any interest group, the UDL subverts democratic institutions to further their own ends. Many a leader in feeder government is not accountable to their region; rather they are accountable to this travelling band of regionwhores that elected them into office.

This is their greatest crime, and it is why the regimes of Topid and Belschaft saw decline in the South Pacific. It is why the Rejected Realms is dead with Whambama at the helm. If TRR was to suffer an invasion now, it would be UDLers from Osiris and Userites from Equilism who would be at the aid of the delegate, not his residents. Whamabama has no accountability to his region, which is kept in political darkness. He does not solicit their involvement, nor does he owe his delegacy to them. The UDL endeavors to shackle the feeders to their agenda, by subverting their institutions, electing their leaders, and tying them to a Userite agenda.

These Userite infestations are secured through similar means as Krulltopia’s continued rule over the Pacific. One player – Eluvatar – provides automated endorsement scanning of at least three GCRs.

Indeed, the supra-regional nature of the organization is best evident in the UDL’s Intelligence Services. GCRs, founderless regions, persons of interest, and the WA happenings are all scanned, scraped, and sorted in an automated fashion. In a supposed protection of freedom, justice, and democracy…the UDL has established itself as NationStates’ big brother, the all seeing eye. This technological terror is a menace, primarily because it facilitates the resistance of natural trends – by putting dead governments and regions on automated life support.


III

"In reality the old regime was, above all, based on cronyism and subservience to foreign powers. Inside The Pacific their state apparatus stood as a separate entity to the people – endeavouring always to exist above and out of reach. Leading officials would pass power around amongst themselves, occasionally throwing up illusions of Pacifican participation, but invariably serving only their own narrow interests and those of their masters. This is of no surprise when we consider their defining feature – that they weren't Pacificans themselves! Though resident inside Pacifican territory, and though they made all the sounds they felt necessary for their regime to survive, their actions shone a light on their motive: they were an occupying force. Their small circle of friends and advisers came from groups outside of and unaffiliated to the population they ruled over, and held in such contempt, and so it was that their actions reflected interests entirely contradictory to those of the Pacifican people."


Krulltopia possesses a monopoly of influence. Unlike Hileville and post-Belschaft regionalists in TSP who had to fight Userites tooth and nail to attain reforms, Krulltopia faces no challenger.

Yet the Pacific is failing.

While Userites reached new heights with the UDL, the Pacific does nothing. When the buffoon Sedgistan invaded the South Pacific, there was no Pacifican Army to defend a fellow GCR. They left the South Pacific to succumb to a Userite infestation. When two new GCRs were created, the NPO was on the sidelines while raiders and defenders clashed, and Osiris fell to one of the oldest Userite coalitions in the game.

Krulltopia is often in the company of Userites. Through his agents, Krulltopia has worked with Userites in the South Pacific to advance a personal agenda and suppress regionalism. His servant AMOM, has worked with Userites to engineer hacking fraud in Balder.

Krulltopia has spit on the legacy of Francos Spain. He gives no answer to Userite defenderism. While the armies of the North Pacific and now the South Pacific will face attempts at a defender pivot, he does not seek to politicize raiders in Francoism or marshal the resources of a feeder to any action.

He logs in, scans the region, collects influence at an unrivaled rate, and moves on. He is the greatest sinner in the mind of a true Francoist, for he has hijacked the greatest political legacy in the game and has left it to rot. He does not recruit, does not educate his residents, and is delegate of nothing more than an ignorant region and a closet of skeletons.

Krulltopia serves only himself and has ceased to pursue the advancement and betterment of the Pacific. Yet can not contemplate standing aside.

The Pacific is occupied by a Userite.

He has reduced Francoism to Francoterrorism, by depriving true Francoists of the support of their mother region.

No feeder delegate could so easily and unilaterally alter their region for either good or ill.

Krulltopia has simply elected to do nothing, and so he sins.

IV


The resurgence of Userites Belschaft and Milograd in the South Pacific represent a threat to Francoists and Raiders alike. If there is new growth in the South Pacific Army, it will be defender aligned, be it cloaked in neutrality or not.

The best defenders of Feeder liberty and sovereignty are not the UDL regionwhores, they are the Raiders. Raiders should look to involve themselves more in feeders and not let the UDL regionwhores leverage feeder advantages (such as automatic recruitment and large non-updater pools) to create large Userite armies. Raiders should look to adopt Francoism in the feeders to arm themselves against defenders while insuring they do not simply become a mirror sort of Userite.

Feeders must pursue stricter Citizenship requirements and recognize that opponents to such are likely UDL members. Not mandating WA presence allows regionwhores to get elected with no accountability to you or your residents, only to their regionwhore constituency. Recruit from your own residency pools and founding nations, and create strong, sovereign feeders with no outside restrictions on military exercise.

Administration must address the faulty influence system in GCRs and greater concern should be placed on the ability for scraping/scanning networks to dominate the game.
Biyah does not want you to see THIS (scroll all the way down)
[20:52] <PurpleHaze> r u trying to recruit me Unibot?
[20:53] <Unibot> ....
[20:53] * Unibot looks around.
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> i thought u'd know from my IP
[20:53] <Unibot> Errrmm..
[20:53] <Unibot> <_<
[20:53] <Unibot> >_>
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> I am Anur-Sanur/Hax/Horak/Frak
[20:53] <Unibot> Ahhhhhhh
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> and your mother
[20:53] * Unibot runs. :P
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> tee hee
[20:54] * PurpleHaze kisses Unibot
[20:54] <Unibot> ^_^
(who I am known as)

Francos Spain Forever

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Cromarty
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6198
Founded: Oct 09, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Cromarty » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:14 pm

Lol Frak.

I expect someone will be along shortly to actually reply to your drivel, but I urge them not to legitimise your bullshit with their replies. It'd just be a waste of their time.

Have fun remaining an irrelevant sometimes nuisance.
Cerian Quilor wrote:There's a difference between breaking the rules, and being well....Cromarty...
<Koth>all sexual orientations must unite under the relative sexiness of madjack
Former Delegate of Osiris
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Кромартий

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AS22
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 188
Founded: Oct 14, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby AS22 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:08 pm

Cromarty wrote:Lol Frak.

I expect someone will be along shortly to actually reply to your drivel, but I urge them not to legitimise your bullshit with their replies. It'd just be a waste of their time.

Have fun remaining an irrelevant sometimes nuisance.


You know Cromarty, I just want to thank you for recording yourself plotting to frame another nation for hijacking.

You really are an example to us all.

I don't think I've met a more incompetent player in my entire time with NS.

Not only are you one of the lowest of Unibot's parrots, trumpeting the Userite line with insufferable ignorance and venom, but you actually posted a permanent pastebin incriminating yourself and then directed someone right to it.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=216178

Please give me more Cromarty. My appetite for your idiocy is insatiable.
Biyah does not want you to see THIS (scroll all the way down)
[20:52] <PurpleHaze> r u trying to recruit me Unibot?
[20:53] <Unibot> ....
[20:53] * Unibot looks around.
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> i thought u'd know from my IP
[20:53] <Unibot> Errrmm..
[20:53] <Unibot> <_<
[20:53] <Unibot> >_>
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> I am Anur-Sanur/Hax/Horak/Frak
[20:53] <Unibot> Ahhhhhhh
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> and your mother
[20:53] * Unibot runs. :P
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> tee hee
[20:54] * PurpleHaze kisses Unibot
[20:54] <Unibot> ^_^
(who I am known as)

Francos Spain Forever

User avatar
Southern Bellz
Diplomat
 
Posts: 633
Founded: Oct 04, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Southern Bellz » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:24 pm

Alternate Titles:

Unibot: Please, please tell me how to get people to agree with me in NS

How not to coup a feeder: A comprehensive guide to my personal failures

Regions I am banned from and a personal list of nations that are mean to me.
Last edited by Southern Bellz on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Klaus Devestatorie
Minister
 
Posts: 2936
Founded: Aug 28, 2008
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:27 pm

This is great.

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AS22
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 188
Founded: Oct 14, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby AS22 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:29 pm

I think someone is still butthurt over being couped.

*gives SB a kiss*
Biyah does not want you to see THIS (scroll all the way down)
[20:52] <PurpleHaze> r u trying to recruit me Unibot?
[20:53] <Unibot> ....
[20:53] * Unibot looks around.
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> i thought u'd know from my IP
[20:53] <Unibot> Errrmm..
[20:53] <Unibot> <_<
[20:53] <Unibot> >_>
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> I am Anur-Sanur/Hax/Horak/Frak
[20:53] <Unibot> Ahhhhhhh
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> and your mother
[20:53] * Unibot runs. :P
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> tee hee
[20:54] * PurpleHaze kisses Unibot
[20:54] <Unibot> ^_^
(who I am known as)

Francos Spain Forever

User avatar
Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 27796
Founded: Dec 16, 2003
Capitalizt

Postby Frisbeeteria » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:02 pm

Cromarty wrote:Have fun remaining an irrelevant sometimes nuisance.

Cromarty, you are dancing close to the edge of flaming. You're in dangerous territory with prior warnings, so you better cool your jets.

AS22 wrote:I don't think I've met a more incompetent player in my entire time with NS.
Not only are you one of the lowest of Unibot's parrots,
Please give me more Cromarty. My appetite for your idiocy is insatiable.

AS22, you've crossed over the edge. *** Warned for flaming. ***

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Southern Bellz
Diplomat
 
Posts: 633
Founded: Oct 04, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Southern Bellz » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:57 pm

Responding to flaming is worse than flaming?

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Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:02 pm

Francoists and Raiders are not kin. Some raiders and some Francoists might have certain overlap, but to argue that the two ideological viewpoints as a whole are related is to ignore the basic and fundamental focus of the two worldviews.

Francoism is like a religion. There are multiple interpretations of how it best works.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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AS22
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 188
Founded: Oct 14, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby AS22 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:39 pm

Southern Bellz wrote:Responding to flaming is worse than flaming?


I hope you realize I was the one responding :p

If so, then thank you :hug:
Biyah does not want you to see THIS (scroll all the way down)
[20:52] <PurpleHaze> r u trying to recruit me Unibot?
[20:53] <Unibot> ....
[20:53] * Unibot looks around.
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> i thought u'd know from my IP
[20:53] <Unibot> Errrmm..
[20:53] <Unibot> <_<
[20:53] <Unibot> >_>
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> I am Anur-Sanur/Hax/Horak/Frak
[20:53] <Unibot> Ahhhhhhh
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> and your mother
[20:53] * Unibot runs. :P
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> tee hee
[20:54] * PurpleHaze kisses Unibot
[20:54] <Unibot> ^_^
(who I am known as)

Francos Spain Forever

User avatar
Eldarion Telcontar
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 159
Founded: Jun 30, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby Eldarion Telcontar » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:07 pm

I agree mostly with what you are saying.

I dislike those who need to "be everywhere" and be a part of everything and all the big, important regions, when they could be doing more good as an indiviual member of a few communities - in an effort to help and guide and be a member of them rather than being a part of multiple massive communities in an effort to better themselves or their seperate organisation.

I'm somewhere inbetween a raider and a very small scale cosmopolitan, believing one should only be a part of a few smaller, midsized communities (as seen through my activity in Europeia and my region Ainur). I could make an effort to spread myself to thin taking a more active role in Balder, TSP, etc but that wouldn't be the best - one should only be a part of a few communities, stay true to their identity and be the best citizen they can be. We should be making an effort to better indiviual communities in order to better the NS world rather than make an effort to better ourselves.
Augustus Anumia

King-Emeritus of Ainur


Ashton Mercer wrote:Some college could do an entire study of the social interactions of Ainur for a decade and get nowhere.

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Southern Bellz
Diplomat
 
Posts: 633
Founded: Oct 04, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Southern Bellz » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:08 pm

AS22 wrote:
Southern Bellz wrote:Responding to flaming is worse than flaming?


I hope you realize I was the one responding :p

If so, then thank you :hug:


Yes hax, I can read.

:palm:

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Neo Arcad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11242
Founded: Jan 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Neo Arcad » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:11 pm

tl;dr

More whining against the UDL? Hmph. Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone?
So raid Paradise, and put up a Black Riders WFE.
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This is the best region ever. You know you want it.

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Cormac Stark
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1417
Founded: Apr 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormac Stark » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:47 pm

AS22 wrote:The best defenders of Feeder liberty and sovereignty are not the UDL regionwhores, they are the Raiders. Raiders should look to involve themselves more in feeders and not let the UDL regionwhores leverage feeder advantages (such as automatic recruitment and large non-updater pools) to create large Userite armies. Raiders should look to adopt Francoism in the feeders to arm themselves against defenders while insuring they do not simply become a mirror sort of Userite.

This essay is complete garbage so I'm not going to bother responding to it in any depth -- but I did want to call attention to this particular paragraph, which may be the most ludicrous portion of the entire essay. There are basically three reasons this will never happen:

1. Many raiders are cosmopolitans or, as you would call it, "regionwhores." Although The Black Riders, The Black Hawks, etc., do not call themselves supra-regional as the UDL does, they are basically supra-regional raider organizations and their raiders generally belong to other regions. The idea that raiders are going to usher in a new era of Francoism in the GCRs assumes that raiders are regionalists when many are not.

2. Most of the raiders to whom I've spoken who have given any thought to Francoism at all find it as laughable as defenders do.

3. While defenders often get actively involved in GCRs, raiders typically ignore them. The vast majority of raiders who do hold citizenship in GCRs -- with Balder as a notable exception -- are incredibly inactive and usually only show up to vote in elections or on WA resolutions. In my experience, most raiders are only interested in GCRs insofar as they're interested in GCR power, particularly GCR power in the WA. By inviting raiders to take over the GCRs you're essentially inviting a Userite sleeping giant into the GCRs because you can't see past your own personal vendettas to see that defenders aren't the Userite "regionwhores" you think we are.

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Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 9986
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:52 pm

Cormac Stark wrote:3. In my experience, most raiders are only interested in GCRs insofar as they're interested in GCR power, particularly GCR power in the WA SC.

Fixed that for you. There is a massive difference.
Ideological Bulwark #253
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Cormac Stark
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1417
Founded: Apr 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormac Stark » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:19 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Cormac Stark wrote:3. In my experience, most raiders are only interested in GCRs insofar as they're interested in GCR power, particularly GCR power in the WA SC.

Fixed that for you. There is a massive difference.

The SC is part of the WA, but yes, it is the specific part I was trying to convey.

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AS22
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 188
Founded: Oct 14, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby AS22 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:54 am

Cormac Stark wrote:
AS22 wrote:The best defenders of Feeder liberty and sovereignty are not the UDL regionwhores, they are the Raiders. Raiders should look to involve themselves more in feeders and not let the UDL regionwhores leverage feeder advantages (such as automatic recruitment and large non-updater pools) to create large Userite armies. Raiders should look to adopt Francoism in the feeders to arm themselves against defenders while insuring they do not simply become a mirror sort of Userite.

This essay is complete garbage so I'm not going to bother responding to it in any depth -- but I did want to call attention to this particular paragraph, which may be the most ludicrous portion of the entire essay. There are basically three reasons this will never happen:

1. Many raiders are cosmopolitans or, as you would call it, "regionwhores." Although The Black Riders, The Black Hawks, etc., do not call themselves supra-regional as the UDL does, they are basically supra-regional raider organizations and their raiders generally belong to other regions. The idea that raiders are going to usher in a new era of Francoism in the GCRs assumes that raiders are regionalists when many are not.

2. Most of the raiders to whom I've spoken who have given any thought to Francoism at all find it as laughable as defenders do.

3. While defenders often get actively involved in GCRs, raiders typically ignore them. The vast majority of raiders who do hold citizenship in GCRs -- with Balder as a notable exception -- are incredibly inactive and usually only show up to vote in elections or on WA resolutions. In my experience, most raiders are only interested in GCRs insofar as they're interested in GCR power, particularly GCR power in the WA. By inviting raiders to take over the GCRs you're essentially inviting a Userite sleeping giant into the GCRs because you can't see past your own personal vendettas to see that defenders aren't the Userite "regionwhores" you think we are.


I agree with you that this is easier said than done, and it is more a personal fantasy (raiders returning to the GCRs and morphing into Francoists that is) than a likely reality. I do however think, it would be advantageous and better for them, for several reasons.

But to your three points, I recognize what you are saying in point 1 but I disagree. I don't think Raiders are "regionwhores" in the same sense that defenders are. As you say, raiders in GCRs are incredibly inactive if they are there at all. Raiders may be present in many raiding orgs or raider regions etc...but they are not whoring out the region. They may be meaningful contributors in several raiding regions, usually they are soldiers under multiple banners.

This is not regionwhoring. Regionwhoring is a UDLer becoming a citizen in a GCR and then voting for a fellow UDLer while remaining minimally active/ignorant in said GCR. It's fundamentally different. Raiders don't join other regions for political exploitation - that is regionwhoring. UDLers do, that's what makes them Userites.

I also don't think that saying they could return Francoism to the GCRs mean necessarily that they have to become "regionalists". I recognize the modern raider disposition. I think something Raiders and Francoists share is vilification by Userites, in that the Francoist's Userite enemies and the Raider's Defender enemies are largely the same people and use the same tactics/propaganda. This commonality and the shared belief that GP should not be constrained as Userites/Defenders wish it to be, would be the foundation of partnership, not the raider's belief in "regionalism".

To your second point, yes I know that. Again though, I think that is a mistake on their part.

To your third point, same thing. Although I of course disagree with the petulant "vendetta" remark. I worked in the South Pacific as the reformer Haxstree, and UDLers were an impediment and employed tactics straight out of the Userite playbook. The UDL in TSP are a perfect fit of Francoist Useritism. But of course, you will continue to disparage me as being in possession of nothing more than petty vendettas, so whatever. You were not active in the South Pacific at the time, and I believe are completely ignorant to what happened there. That's never stopped you before however and you'll likely continue taking pages out of the Belschaft playbook, so enjoy that.
Biyah does not want you to see THIS (scroll all the way down)
[20:52] <PurpleHaze> r u trying to recruit me Unibot?
[20:53] <Unibot> ....
[20:53] * Unibot looks around.
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> i thought u'd know from my IP
[20:53] <Unibot> Errrmm..
[20:53] <Unibot> <_<
[20:53] <Unibot> >_>
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> I am Anur-Sanur/Hax/Horak/Frak
[20:53] <Unibot> Ahhhhhhh
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> and your mother
[20:53] * Unibot runs. :P
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> tee hee
[20:54] * PurpleHaze kisses Unibot
[20:54] <Unibot> ^_^
(who I am known as)

Francos Spain Forever

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Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:57 am

So its regionwhoring when the UDL does it, but not when someone else does?
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

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Southern Bellz
Diplomat
 
Posts: 633
Founded: Oct 04, 2008
Democratic Socialists

Postby Southern Bellz » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:37 am

Lets not forget that non-UDLers in TSP didn't like your reforms as well. :D

User avatar
Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:57 am

Southern Bellz wrote:Lets not forget that non-UDLers in TSP didn't like your reforms as well. :D

But you'e obviously a Userite, since you disagree with Haxfrak. :p
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

User avatar
AS22
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 188
Founded: Oct 14, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby AS22 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:18 am

Cerian Quilor wrote:
Southern Bellz wrote:Lets not forget that non-UDLers in TSP didn't like your reforms as well. :D

But you'e obviously a Userite, since you disagree with Haxfrak. :p


SB is not a Userite, she's just a confused native. :p

And I explain up there ^ in reply to Cromarty what the difference is CQ.

It isn't about just having multiple membership in different regions, it is how you are doing that and what you are doing with it.
Biyah does not want you to see THIS (scroll all the way down)
[20:52] <PurpleHaze> r u trying to recruit me Unibot?
[20:53] <Unibot> ....
[20:53] * Unibot looks around.
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> i thought u'd know from my IP
[20:53] <Unibot> Errrmm..
[20:53] <Unibot> <_<
[20:53] <Unibot> >_>
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> I am Anur-Sanur/Hax/Horak/Frak
[20:53] <Unibot> Ahhhhhhh
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> and your mother
[20:53] * Unibot runs. :P
[20:53] <PurpleHaze> tee hee
[20:54] * PurpleHaze kisses Unibot
[20:54] <Unibot> ^_^
(who I am known as)

Francos Spain Forever

User avatar
Jakker
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 2934
Founded: May 17, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Jakker » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:05 am

I think a lot of points here are very accurate and should be listened to. Sadly, anyone guilty of what Frak has highlighted above will simply deny what was said and try to diminish Frak's credibility. While I don't think he goes about it always in the best way, I think Frak's presence in this game is something to be appreciated. He simply seems to truly care about the sanctity of this game, while not also trying impose selfish desires like being remembered in NS history or gaining great power. To deny that UDL or other groups do not utilize their influence to gain and maintain power in the feeders is silly. The extent to which it can be corrected is most likely minimal at best, but I am glad there is someone like Frak who is trying.
One Stop Rules Shop
Getting Help Request (GHR)

The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.

User avatar
Cromarty
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6198
Founded: Oct 09, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Cromarty » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:07 am

Lol Jakker.

U so crazy.
Cerian Quilor wrote:There's a difference between breaking the rules, and being well....Cromarty...
<Koth>all sexual orientations must unite under the relative sexiness of madjack
Former Delegate of Osiris
Brommander of the Cartan Militia: They're Taking The Cartans To Isengard!
Кромартий

User avatar
Jakker
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 2934
Founded: May 17, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Jakker » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:38 am

Cromarty wrote:Lol Jakker.

U so crazy.


See what I mean ;)
One Stop Rules Shop
Getting Help Request (GHR)

The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.

User avatar
The Bruce
Diplomat
 
Posts: 641
Founded: Antiquity
New York Times Democracy

Postby The Bruce » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:48 pm

Cormac Stark wrote:3. While defenders often get actively involved in GCRs, raiders typically ignore them. The vast majority of raiders who do hold citizenship in GCRs -- with Balder as a notable exception -- are incredibly inactive and usually only show up to vote in elections or on WA resolutions. In my experience, most raiders are only interested in GCRs insofar as they're interested in GCR power, particularly GCR power in the WA. By inviting raiders to take over the GCRs you're essentially inviting a Userite sleeping giant into the GCRs because you can't see past your own personal vendettas to see that defenders aren't the Userite "regionwhores" you think we are.


I would argue the point about invaders ignoring Game Created Regions. For years they've served as retirement homes for invaders or as they move on from raiding to pursue feeder politics. One would hardly say that Todd McCloud, for instance, hasn't been participating in the feeders. He doesn't raid anymore (as far as I know :p ), but he's been one of the most active politicians in the feeders in recent years. He's not alone either. The West and North Pacific have always had a certain amount of retired and semi-retired invaders serving as its more active members. While their bias against defenders might extend to votes in the Security Council, most feeder governments haven't been regional invader governments (early East Pacific and short term regimes aside). Before the big dust up over Osiris and Balder, defenders were mostly confined to domination of Lazarus and the Rejected Realms.

There have always been multi-regional players out there, using their activity levels to influence multiple regions at a time on a single issue: invaders, defenders, members of other feeders, and players who like to have a finger in every pie. What seems to bother people about the UDL doing so is that they see them as a threat, ignoring all those previously doing the same thing. Because the UDL exist as a power block without a region, they will tend to enter regional politics as a power block and that makes some players feel threatened. But before everyone takes the boots to the UDL for taking advantage of lax citizenship rules, they might want to also shine the same light on others who also use foreign agendas in game created region communities.

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