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Complete Nation States.

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Gal Seren Roan
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Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:53 pm

Nation States is the most complete Nation Simulation game in existence. The interface is clean and it exists in a mostly advertisement free environment. Though it lacks one important element. The nation of Gal Seren Roan has no love of war but finds that the military strength of a country is as important as the economy, civil rights, and the political freedoms of a nation. I believe that the last missing element of Nation States is the possibility of war. It is an important reality that any world is plagued with wars.

Here are the ideas I had for how it would work.

Basics:

1.) Nations with small populations or a weak military would be protected by a World Assembly peace keeping force. (this
would solve any problems involving an existing large nation taking advantage of its size and military strength to destroy small nations
as they are created)

2.) Developing a nations military would be optional. Thus if a nation did not want to participate in any wars it could simply not develop its
military and stay under the protection of the World Assembly. (this would allow a nation not wishing to participate in
any wars and wanting only to continue to develop their nation using the other aspects of Nation States to be able to do so without
fear of being destroyed)

Conditions for continued protection:

3.) When a nations military reaches a certain strength (a limit determined by the World Assembly) it would lose the protection granted by
the World Assembly. (this ensures that no nation can build up a massive military strength while protected form attack
by the World Assembly and then attack another smaller nation without warning)

4.) A nation may decline the protection of the World Assembly at any time. (simple freedom of choice)
5.) A nation under the protection of the World Assembly would automatically lose its protection if were to initiate an attack on another
nation. (simply fair)

Conditions for regaining protection:

6.) A nation that has lost the protection of the World Assembly cannot return under its protection unless its military strength is below the
World Assembly's limit. (logical)
7.) All nations that have been the initiators of a war cannot return under the protection of the World Assembly. (to
ensure that no nation can leave the World Assembly's protection to wage war and always return to be protected as soon as that nation
is in danger of loosing a war)


Alliances:

8.) The World Assembly would keep a record of alliances made by nations and the terms of those alliances. (the World
Assembly would draft 2-5 different types of standard alliances.)

9.) Nations neglecting to fulfill the conditions of any alliance made are to be:
A. Condemned by the World Assembly (using the Condemn or Commend function already in use.)
B. Banned from any protection granted by the World Assembly.
C. Approved by the World Assembly as a legitimate target for nations within the World Assembly protection program to wage war on
that nation and still be able to return for protection if needed.

To close with:

Nation States would have to provide a system to develop military strength and how the actual wars would work. Most likely though a nations military strength would depend on economic and population statuses.
Last edited by Gal Seren Roan on Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Garimidia
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Garimidia » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:58 pm

Gal Seren Roan wrote:
1.) Nations with small populations or a weak military would be protected by a World Assembly peace keeping force.


The World Assembly is not permitted to have armed forces.
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Valipac
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Valipac » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:01 pm

War is carried out through RPing in the International Incidents and Nationstates forums.
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Erastide
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Erastide » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:03 pm

When a nations military reaches a certain strength (a limit determined by the World Assembly) it would lose the protection granted by
the World Assembly.

And through that, you strip the right of a nation to develop as they see fit and participate in other parts of NS without becoming involved in a war system.

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Gal Seren Roan
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:05 pm

Garimidia wrote:
Gal Seren Roan wrote:
1.) Nations with small populations or a weak military would be protected by a World Assembly peace keeping force.


The World Assembly is not permitted to have armed forces.



In essence it would not be armed forces. it would simply be a protection built in to the game that kept other nations from attacking the nations protected by the World Assembly

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Allanea
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Allanea » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:06 pm

All RP on NS is freeform and consent-based. You can always choose to ignore all war.
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Erastide
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Erastide » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:07 pm

Those of you proposing RP war, I think he's trying to suggest an in game mechanic for war. Although given his birthdate, he could easily be unaware of the roleplaying.

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Gal Seren Roan
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:09 pm

Erastide wrote:
When a nations military reaches a certain strength (a limit determined by the World Assembly) it would lose the protection granted by
the World Assembly.

And through that, you strip the right of a nation to develop as they see fit and participate in other parts of NS without becoming involved in a war system.


Not at all the system would allow for nations to develop normaly as they do now in Nation States while being protected by the World Assembly by simply not over developing their military.

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Garimidia
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Garimidia » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:10 pm

All war is done through international incidents and RolePlay though/
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Weylara
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Weylara » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:13 pm

Read the FAQs...

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Gal Seren Roan
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:14 pm

Garimidia wrote:All war is done through international incidents and RolePlay though/


Precisely... This would allow for wars to be "built in" to the game... all of the other aspects major are built in (economy etc.) so why not this.

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Gal Seren Roan
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:18 pm

Weylara wrote:Read the FAQs...


[color=#00FF00]>How do I go to war against another nation? Or trade?

In one sense, you can't. NationStates doesn't include these things -- because it's a simple game, and because they would bias things in favor of militaristic and capitalist nations. One of the nice things about NationStates is that you can craft a nation into your idea of Utopia without having to worry about such pragmatic concerns as national defence.

Into the breach, however, steps the NationStates community, which has independently devised an entire system covering war, trade, and just about anything else you can think of. This takes place entirely on the forums (mostly in "International Incidents"), and is role-played.

Many people have asked about the possibility of a more sophisticated version of NationStates, with trade, military conflicts, and more. This does sound cool, but I haven't decided yet if I want to do that. It would be a lot of work, and I'd have to charge people to play it. But it's possible.

[/color]
this was copied directly from the FAQ page... The fact is that nowhere does it say that such a change is not possible.. also the last paragraph states that Mr. Barry has indeed thought about possibilities like these

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Gal Seren Roan
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:20 pm

Weylara wrote:Read the FAQs...


also the system that I have presented removes the possibilities for the bias towards militaristic nations.

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Reploid Productions
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Reploid Productions » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:24 pm

The fact that NS has no built-in war function is one of the things that's kept me playing for so long. It may not be in the FAQ that it's not possible, but while Max may have considered it, he's not going to be making such a drastic change anytime soon. War on NS2 proved what a spectacular failure it could be.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it, if y'ask me.
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Garimidia
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Garimidia » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:28 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:The fact that NS has no built-in war function is one of the things that's kept me playing for so long. It may not be in the FAQ that it's not possible, but while Max may have considered it, he's not going to be making such a drastic change anytime soon. War on NS2 proved what a spectacular failure it could be.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it, if y'ask me.


Which is very true.
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Gal Seren Roan
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:29 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:The fact that NS has no built-in war function is one of the things that's kept me playing for so long. It may not be in the FAQ that it's not possible, but while Max may have considered it, he's not going to be making such a drastic change anytime soon. War on NS2 proved what a spectacular failure it could be.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it, if y'ask me.



Interesting... I was not aware that NS2 was actually Finished. Once again though I am not someone who likes war!!!!!!! If anything I find it to be a travesty that it exists in our world... But the fact is you dont have a complete representation of the real world whithout it.

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Reploid Productions
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Reploid Productions » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:32 pm

Gal Seren Roan wrote:Interesting... I was not aware that NS2 was actually Finished. Once again though I am not someone who likes war!!!!!!! If anything I find it to be a travesty that it exists in our world... But the fact is you dont have a complete representation of the real world whithout it.

I wasn't aware that we were even trying to have a complete representation of the real world here :P NS is built on satire just like the novel it was meant to promote; Max never meant to be realistic... or even close to realistic :)

And NS2 was about as finished as it was going to get. My particular opinions of it (and of Jolt/OMAC that coded it...) and what orifices it came from are fairly well known at this point. But they tried to be more realistic, and instead made a game that was, at it's core, not fun to play.
Forum mod since May 8, 2003 -- Game mod since May 19, 2003 -- Nation turned 18 on March 23, 2021!
Sunset's DoGA FAQ - For those using DoGA to make their NS military and such.
One Stop Rules Shop -- Reppy's Sig Workshop -- Getting Help Page
[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
Char Aznable/Giant Meteor 2024! - Forcing humanity to move into space and progress whether we goddamn want to or not!

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Gal Seren Roan
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:36 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:
Gal Seren Roan wrote:Interesting... I was not aware that NS2 was actually Finished. Once again though I am not someone who likes war!!!!!!! If anything I find it to be a travesty that it exists in our world... But the fact is you dont have a complete representation of the real world whithout it.

I wasn't aware that we were even trying to have a complete representation of the real world here :P NS is built on satire just like the novel it was meant to promote; Max never meant to be realistic... or even close to realistic :)

And NS2 was about as finished as it was going to get. My particular opinions of it (and of Jolt/OMAC that coded it...) and what orifices it came from are fairly well known at this point. But they tried to be more realistic, and instead made a game that was, at it's core, not fun to play.


What is the fun in running your own country if it has nothing to do with reality... at that point you might as well just imagine your country... also thought Max may have intended it to become a satire it has become incredibly realistic already just in the fact that the issues are current day, real world issues

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Gal Seren Roan
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:39 pm

Please I hope that no one thinks that my hot defense of my post is in any way a hateful defense... :p it is just that i really think it would be a great idea if it could be implemented correctly.

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Reploid Productions
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Reploid Productions » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:49 pm

That's the trick... implementing it correctly. Given the wide range of NS nation technological levels and such, there's really no good numerical-system means to set up a balanced war system.

I honestly believe adding an in-game war function would drive players away; it would just make NS another one of those 'run-a-country' games with folks min/maxing to try and get ahead of other players; adding war would destroy a big part of what makes NS stand out as a unique game. Part of the current set-up's appeal I think is that it's not the micromanagement min/maxing that gets you 'ahead' of other people. The more creative you are, the more incredible things you can do. Just take a look at some of the intricate storylines players have cooked up over the years; modern world stories, past-tech stuff, fantasy nations, far-future tech space empires... all coexisting (for the most part) in the same game, and sometimes interacting in really creative and interesting ways. You'd never get that sort of thing with a war system in place.

Nationstates has always been more about the pen, not the sword. Each person is free to set their own goals, and achieving some of them requires wit and charm rather than a FAQ on how to organize a military.
Forum mod since May 8, 2003 -- Game mod since May 19, 2003 -- Nation turned 18 on March 23, 2021!
Sunset's DoGA FAQ - For those using DoGA to make their NS military and such.
One Stop Rules Shop -- Reppy's Sig Workshop -- Getting Help Page
[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
Char Aznable/Giant Meteor 2024! - Forcing humanity to move into space and progress whether we goddamn want to or not!

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Gal Seren Roan
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:56 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:That's the trick... implementing it correctly. Given the wide range of NS nation technological levels and such, there's really no good numerical-system means to set up a balanced war system.

I honestly believe adding an in-game war function would drive players away; it would just make NS another one of those 'run-a-country' games with folks min/maxing to try and get ahead of other players; adding war would destroy a big part of what makes NS stand out as a unique game. Part of the current set-up's appeal I think is that it's not the micromanagement min/maxing that gets you 'ahead' of other people. The more creative you are, the more incredible things you can do. Just take a look at some of the intricate storylines players have cooked up over the years; modern world stories, past-tech stuff, fantasy nations, far-future tech space empires... all coexisting (for the most part) in the same game, and sometimes interacting in really creative and interesting ways. You'd never get that sort of thing with a war system in place.

Nationstates has always been more about the pen, not the sword. Each person is free to set their own goals, and achieving some of them requires wit and charm rather than a FAQ on how to organize a military.


I suppose that it is true that it would take a lot of work and it would definitley change the workings of the game... what is to bad though is no one has taken the time to actually do a decent game like Nation States that includes the options for war, trade etc.. because it is doable... it is just a question of enough time, effort and creativity

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Gal Seren Roan
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:59 pm

Also a thought is that the implementation of a war system into the actual game would not necessarily exclude the continuation of the forum RPG and all of its creativity...

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Thukidides
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Thukidides » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:02 am

Has anyone ever played a simulation game online that does have a war engine? I have, and let me tell you, the game goes right down the tubes. New players often expand without fully understanding what they're doing, and any number of exploits are usually encouraged by the ruthless. Some people just want to play a game on their own terms, not on somebody else's.

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Gal Seren Roan
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:13 am

Thukidides wrote:Has anyone ever played a simulation game online that does have a war engine? I have, and let me tell you, the game goes right down the tubes. New players often expand without fully understanding what they're doing, and any number of exploits are usually encouraged by the ruthless. Some people just want to play a game on their own terms, not on somebody else's.


that is why a STRICT set of rules is absolutely INDESPENSABLE!!! if not nations run wild and all you have is anarchy...

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Gal Seren Roan
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Re: Complete Nation States.

Postby Gal Seren Roan » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:16 am

Some Excellent example of war games that work well are Axis and Allies, Risk, Memoire 44, and an even better example of a war game mixed with the other aspects of Nation States is a game called Civilisations. (all of the listed games are board games)

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