American Catholics(both libreal and conservative) disobey...

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

That's a nice strawman you're attacking right there. I never said that religious people should live the way I say they should.

People can believe whatever they want. No, my contention is this whole damning someone for choosing to be responsible and for choosing what they consider best for themselves and hiding behind a deity. Something many religious people seem to be very adept at doing, telling others how they should live.

Now that, that is indeed hypocritical and, well, it stinks of self-righteousness.

As you were saying that religions should or shouldn't do something, I interpreted that as you wishing to dictate how religion should work. if you claim you were dojng something different, ai won't argue with you.

Sure, but it's quite alright to start calling me a hypocrite for something I clearly didn't do.

My overall point is that congregations have been effective at mantaining folowers so far. I don't have that many statistics on congregations now and I'm too lazy to look them up, so I'll only give you my view on past trends.
anyways, it's about 2 PM in my timezone. you can respond to my post if you want the last word, but I won't bother reading responses.

You won't be reading responses. That means I won't bother with you. There's no point.

[Dyakovo]

So you're telling me you can read the Bible, but you can't read a simple forum post.

I don't have time for the smart-ass comments. I came here for debate and discussion, not name calling. I don't want to get into a trolling match. I have much better things I can do, I want to use my month of from college wisely.

People disagreeing with you isn't trolling, and calling people trolls in an effort to shut down debate is against the rules.

[Ashmoria]

roman catholics are roman catholic because it is the one true church not because the pope/cardinals/bishops are political geniuses.

when they disagree that the holy mother was born sinless and bodily assumed into heaven, they have a problem. when they support right to work laws, there is no problem.

[Tekania]

The level of obedience you expect people to have to their church is quite frankly, medieval.

That's the RCC's governmental structure, though. So that level of obedience is certainly expected from parishioners. What Catholic is is defined from the top down..... as such those at the bottom not abiding by the rulings of the top are not, within the context of Roman Catholicism, really Catholic. It's a general problem I've had with Roman Catholics for awhile now.... their adherence to a Church they do not believe in. This stems from the fact that the Roman church is alien to most Americans. They are used to the idea that leaders are accountable to the people (members)... and such is not the case within the Roman Church's government structure.... the leaders are accountable only to those over then, not those under them. One could almost say American Catholicism is its own religion distinct from the Roman Church which hasn't developed the balls to go out on their own yet.

[Daelos Tribes]

That's the RCC's governmental structure, though. So that level of obedience is certainly expected from parishioners. What Catholic is is defined from the top down..... as such those at the bottom not abiding by the rulings of the top are not, within the context of Roman Catholicism, really Catholic. It's a general problem I've had with Roman Catholics for awhile now.... their adherence to a Church they do not believe in. This stems from the fact that the Roman church is alien to most Americans. They are used to the idea that leaders are accountable to the people (members)... and such is not the case within the Roman Church's government structure.... the leaders are accountable only to those over then, not those under them. One could almost say American Catholicism is its own religion distinct from the Roman Church which hasn't developed the balls to go out on their own yet.

Thank you.


I really don't at all understand why everyone is getting so harsh on the OP here. He's making a legitimate point that many, many people who call themselves Catholic do not follow Catholic doctrine. Like, at all. You can say what you want about how awful those expectations are on people, but the fact of the matter is, if you do not follow them, how can you call yourself Catholic?

It's like calling yourself a Communist and supporting the existence of classes.

[Tekania]

That's the RCC's governmental structure, though. So that level of obedience is certainly expected from parishioners. What Catholic is is defined from the top down..... as such those at the bottom not abiding by the rulings of the top are not, within the context of Roman Catholicism, really Catholic. It's a general problem I've had with Roman Catholics for awhile now.... their adherence to a Church they do not believe in. This stems from the fact that the Roman church is alien to most Americans. They are used to the idea that leaders are accountable to the people (members)... and such is not the case within the Roman Church's government structure.... the leaders are accountable only to those over then, not those under them. One could almost say American Catholicism is its own religion distinct from the Roman Church which hasn't developed the balls to go out on their own yet.

Thank you.


I really don't at all understand why everyone is getting so harsh on the OP here. He's making a legitimate point that many, many people who call themselves Catholic do not follow Catholic doctrine. Like, at all. You can say what you want about how awful those expectations are on people, but the fact of the matter is, if you do not follow them, how can you call yourself Catholic?

It's like calling yourself a Communist and supporting the existence of classes.

I understand why they are harsh on the OP, like the ones the OP is criticizing, they too find the concept of Roman Catholicism (that is the true concept of it defined by RCC authority) alien. I understand the form and function of how the RCC's system of government... it's just I don't agree with it (I'm Presbyterian btw); but then I don't attempt to claim being Catholic while not agreeing with Catholic Doctrines

[Ashmoria]

That's the RCC's governmental structure, though. So that level of obedience is certainly expected from parishioners. What Catholic is is defined from the top down..... as such those at the bottom not abiding by the rulings of the top are not, within the context of Roman Catholicism, really Catholic. It's a general problem I've had with Roman Catholics for awhile now.... their adherence to a Church they do not believe in. This stems from the fact that the Roman church is alien to most Americans. They are used to the idea that leaders are accountable to the people (members)... and such is not the case within the Roman Church's government structure.... the leaders are accountable only to those over then, not those under them. One could almost say American Catholicism is its own religion distinct from the Roman Church which hasn't developed the balls to go out on their own yet.

Thank you.


I really don't at all understand why everyone is getting so harsh on the OP here. He's making a legitimate point that many, many people who call themselves Catholic do not follow Catholic doctrine. Like, at all. You can say what you want about how awful those expectations are on people, but the fact of the matter is, if you do not follow them, how can you call yourself Catholic?

It's like calling yourself a Communist and supporting the existence of classes.

the church cant micromanage your life.

catholics dont have a choice. they are catholics because it is the one true church. being a bad catholic is still being a catholic. except for matters of doctrine there is no reason to worry that the pope doesnt like <whatever>. believing in the doctrine is correct is enough. no human follows every rule. its not in our nature.

[Daelos Tribes]

the church cant micromanage your life.

catholics dont have a choice. they are catholics because it is the one true church. being a bad catholic is still being a catholic. except for matters of doctrine there is no reason to worry that the pope doesnt like <whatever>. believing in the doctrine is correct is enough. no human follows every rule. its not in our nature.

And if there weren't Catholics that genuinely believed that their violation of the doctrine wasn't wrong, I would agree. But there are Catholics out there who are actually outright opposed to Catholic doctrine, like, for example, Paul Ryan according to the OP.


Admittedly, I'm not and have never been Catholic. Perhaps there are doctrinal loopholes that I'm not aware of, like the one Biden cited in his explanation of why he's pro-choice. But I have yet to hear of most of them.

[Tekania]

the church cant micromanage your life.

catholics dont have a choice. they are catholics because it is the one true church. being a bad catholic is still being a catholic. except for matters of doctrine there is no reason to worry that the pope doesnt like <whatever>. believing in the doctrine is correct is enough. no human follows every rule. its not in our nature.

And if there weren't Catholics that genuinely believed that their violation of the doctrine wasn't wrong, I would agree. But there are Catholics out there who are actually outright opposed to Catholic doctrine, like, for example, Paul Ryan according to the OP.


Admittedly, I'm not and have never been Catholic. Perhaps there are doctrinal loopholes that I'm not aware of, like the one Biden cited in his explanation of why he's pro-choice. But I have yet to hear of most of them.

My Wife (raised catholic) has views like Biden... she would never get an abortion herself, but she does not believe in using her views as a basis for general social policy to impose upon others.

[The Victorious Dragon]

As a Catholic, I'd like to say that for the most part, it seems to be the generation of aging 60s throwbacks who disobeys church teaching (especially liberal but also conservative). It seems to be the same people who won't shut the hell up in church when other people are trying to pray. Fortunately the younger generation of Catholics (the ones who actually take it seriously) seem to be more in line with church teaching. The so-called "spirit of Vatican II" seems to be dying out.

The Catholic Church does not need to get with the times. The times need to get with the church.

[Dyakovo]

And if there weren't Catholics that genuinely believed that their violation of the doctrine wasn't wrong, I would agree. But there are Catholics out there who are actually outright opposed to Catholic doctrine, like, for example, Paul Ryan according to the OP.


Admittedly, I'm not and have never been Catholic. Perhaps there are doctrinal loopholes that I'm not aware of, like the one Biden cited in his explanation of why he's pro-choice. But I have yet to hear of most of them.

My Wife (raised catholic) has views like Biden... she would never get an abortion herself, but she does not believe in using her views as a basis for general social policy to impose upon others.

Now if only all theists were like you and your wife...

[Ashmoria]

the church cant micromanage your life.

catholics dont have a choice. they are catholics because it is the one true church. being a bad catholic is still being a catholic. except for matters of doctrine there is no reason to worry that the pope doesnt like <whatever>. believing in the doctrine is correct is enough. no human follows every rule. its not in our nature.

And if there weren't Catholics that genuinely believed that their violation of the doctrine wasn't wrong, I would agree. But there are Catholics out there who are actually outright opposed to Catholic doctrine, like, for example, Paul Ryan according to the OP.


Admittedly, I'm not and have never been Catholic. Perhaps there are doctrinal loopholes that I'm not aware of, like the one Biden cited in his explanation of why he's pro-choice. But I have yet to hear of most of them.

the church cannot dictate your frigging politics.

if paul ryan had come out against the trinity you might wonder why he is a catholic. having a shitty budget proposal doesnt negate his catholicism. it makes him imperfect just like everyone else.

[Bottle]

My Wife (raised catholic) has views like Biden... she would never get an abortion herself, but she does not believe in using her views as a basis for general social policy to impose upon others.

Does she actively support the Catholic Church?

Cause that's what pisses me off...the people who claim to be moderates or liberals, but still tithe or support Catholic organizations which actively fight women's rights, gay rights, and whatever else.

I completely understand being a "cultural Catholic" or having grown up Catholic or whatever. Just, if you don't believe in forced childbirth, then don't give money to anything Catholic. If you don't believe gay people are subhumans who don't deserve equal rights, then don't give money to anything Catholic. If you help them fund their hateful activities, then kindly don't pretend you give a shit about women or gay people or any of the other victims of sex abuse or any of the other demographics that the Catholic Church is actively and intentionally hurting.

[Dyakovo]

The Catholic Church does not need to get with the times. The times need to get with the church.

No.

[The Victorious Dragon]

My Wife (raised catholic) has views like Biden... she would never get an abortion herself, but she does not believe in using her views as a basis for general social policy to impose upon others.

Cardinal Arinze has a lot to say about that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv3MRyKfEHA

[Bottle]

And if there weren't Catholics that genuinely believed that their violation of the doctrine wasn't wrong, I would agree. But there are Catholics out there who are actually outright opposed to Catholic doctrine, like, for example, Paul Ryan according to the OP.


Admittedly, I'm not and have never been Catholic. Perhaps there are doctrinal loopholes that I'm not aware of, like the one Biden cited in his explanation of why he's pro-choice. But I have yet to hear of most of them.

the church cannot dictate your frigging politics.

if paul ryan had come out against the trinity you might wonder why he is a catholic. having a shitty budget proposal doesnt negate his catholicism. it makes him imperfect just like everyone else.

It's not about whether the Church dictates your politics, it's about whether YOU support the CHURCH'S politics. To be honest, nobody really gives a fuck about what individual Catholics might or might not believe (and apparently the Church gives even fewer fucks than the rest of us), what matters is how an extremely wealthy and influential organization uses its power to hurt people.

[Tekania]

My Wife (raised catholic) has views like Biden... she would never get an abortion herself, but she does not believe in using her views as a basis for general social policy to impose upon others.

Now if only all theists were like you and your wife...

Most of my theist friends are pretty liberal as myself..... I've had some more hardline theist friends, but they are in prison now. There's got to be some irony in that.

I'm especially speaking of one who I later found out had a conversation of my wife that she needed to watch out around me, as I was not a "Man of God" like him..... and as he's presently doing a 15 year bit in state prison for soliciting sex from a 14 year old... I'm sure my wife is pretty happy that I am not a mad of God like him.

[Ashmoria]

the church cannot dictate your frigging politics.

if paul ryan had come out against the trinity you might wonder why he is a catholic. having a shitty budget proposal doesnt negate his catholicism. it makes him imperfect just like everyone else.

It's not about whether the Church dictates your politics, it's about whether YOU support the CHURCH'S politics. To be honest, nobody really gives a fuck about what individual Catholics might or might not believe (and apparently the Church gives even fewer fucks than the rest of us), what matters is how an extremely wealthy and influential organization uses its power to hurt people.

that is a different issue from the one proposed by the OP.

[Dyakovo]

Now if only all theists were like you and your wife...

Most of my theist friends are pretty liberal as myself..... I've had some more hardline theist friends, but they are in prison now. There's got to be some irony in that.

I'm especially speaking of one who I later found out had a conversation of my wife that she needed to watch out around me, as I was not a "Man of God" like him..... and as he's presently doing a 15 year bit in state prison for soliciting sex from a 14 year old... I'm sure my wife is pretty happy that I am not a mad of God like him.

As, I imagine, is the 14 year old...

[Ceannairceach]

The Catholic Church does not need to get with the times. The times need to get with the church.

Backwards is not a direction we never need to go.

[Bottle]

It's not about whether the Church dictates your politics, it's about whether YOU support the CHURCH'S politics. To be honest, nobody really gives a fuck about what individual Catholics might or might not believe (and apparently the Church gives even fewer fucks than the rest of us), what matters is how an extremely wealthy and influential organization uses its power to hurt people.

that is a different issue from the one proposed by the OP.

Not really, we're just coming at it from different angles.

The OP basically thinks that people who call themselves Catholic should adhere to Catholic doctrine across the board, or else give up calling themselves Catholic. Personally, I agree...I just think it'd be best for those people to stop being Catholic, because I think the Catholic Church is a reprehensible organization.

But the thing is, I know there are people who have "cultural" reasons for wanting to still identify as Catholic. That's their call, I just think they should refrain from supporting the Church in any material way, unless they are willing to admit (both to themselves and to others) that they DO support the Church's anti-choice, anti-gay, pro-rape activities.

[Tekania]

Does she actively support the Catholic Church?

Presently, no... she left Catholicism and is presently a member of the same Presbyterian (PCUSA) church I attend.

[Bottle]

Does she actively support the Catholic Church?

Presently, no... she left Catholicism and is presently a member of the same Presbyterian (PCUSA) church I attend.

Good on her, then, and my above rant clearly does not apply.

[Tekania]

Presently, no... she left Catholicism and is presently a member of the same Presbyterian (PCUSA) church I attend.

Good on her, then, and my above rant clearly does not apply.

Yes, and the GA's stance on the issue meshes with my own, which is why I hold membership here..... to quote in excerpt from the last claridication on the issue of abortion from the 2006 GA:

“In life and death, we belong to God.” Life is a gift from God. We may not know exactly when human life begins, and have but an imperfect understanding of God as the giver of life and of our own human existence, yet we recognize that life is precious to God, and we should preserve and protect it. We derive our understanding of human life from Scripture and the Reformed Tradition in light of science, human experience, and reason guided by the Holy Spirit. Because we are made in the image of God, human beings are moral agents, endowed by the Creator with the capacity to make choices. Our Reformed Tradition recognizes that people do not always make moral choices, and forgiveness is central to our faith. In the Reformed Tradition, we affirm that God is the only Lord of conscience-not the state or the church. As a community, the church challenges the faithful to exercise their moral agency responsibly.

[Dyakovo]

My Wife (raised catholic) has views like Biden... she would never get an abortion herself, but she does not believe in using her views as a basis for general social policy to impose upon others.

Cardinal Arinze has a lot to say about that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv3MRyKfEHA

The Cardinal is a douche.